How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents a..

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:31:16 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> For example there are some strange hidden files over in C:\ that look
> all lumpy. Maybe we can clear out boot.ini as there's nothing much in
> there if you take a look and ntldr looks particularly useless. (Just
> joking, but I hope you get my meaning.)

Funny you should mention that Franklin, because long ago (when Windows XP
came out), I tried removing all the files that could be removed.

I also used PC Magazine Change-of-Address (aka COA.exe) to move the
Microsoft-supplied items like "Common Files" into the "My Windows"
hierarchy.

I also moved all the Microsoft-supplied idiotically flat organized-by-brand
items in Program Files over to where they belonged in program files.

It was so much work that I learned that it was (from an efficiency
standpoint) hopeless to fight the clutter that is microsoft. That's when I
resolved to create a simple hierarchy that I've been using ever since. I
can migrate a user from one machine to another in minutes and NOTHING
changes for them but the keyboard! Try that with your approach!

But, to the point you noted, yes, I have had to mount my disks, long ago,
as an auxilliary disk, just to add back the NTLDR or boot.ini or
pagefile.sys, etc. files which look innoculous but which will prevent a
reboot.

Again, the moral of the story is to not try to "fix" microsoft as it's
hopeless. All we can hope to do is always know before we start where all
data will reside, by design.

It's brilliant - whether or not you can see that.
Donna

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:23:53 -0800, bluerhinoceros wrote:
> Good luck. Hope this helps point you in the right direction.

Thank you blue rhino! I will try all your suggestions after doing some
research.

I will make separate comments on some of the actions for succinctness.

Much appreciated ... you are the first one to point us to the proper path
in this thread!

Donna

[big snip]

On Mon 21 Jan 2008 02:12:00, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> All I'm asking is if anyone knows how to move the Start Menu
> from the "Documents and Settings" directory over to C:\My Menus.
>
> Is this question worth that much vitriol from the likes of you?
> Donna


Donna, I felt I have to be blunt but my frustration has made me get
annoyed. I apologize for that.

I don't think I can help. You do not use standard terms to refer to
the component parts of XP and that continues to cause
misunderstanding. If you use incorrect terms then it is no surprise
that you can't find answers on Google.

The way you describe and comment on the design quality of certain
parts of XP is rather unusual and you and I don't appear to have any
common understanding about this.

Your expectation from information technology to provide an operating
system whose very own internal structure can be bent to one's
preference in neatness seems many years ahead of where operating
systems are today.

People, including myself, have posted what seem to be useful replies
but you do not acknowledge them, understand them, or Google research
them further (I have used correct terms). It remains hard to know
what level of ability you need help at.

I'm sure you know you believe you have an insight into an alternate
folder layout for XP which few others before you have have managed to
see but your conviction is so total that you don't seem to accept
feedback on this.

I still take the view you're making XP significantly more fragile by
your changes. For example, if you make changes to or move the
Program Files folder then how will you make the appropriate changes
to the relevant hard coded paths which any given application might
have in the registry. I half-suspect other changes of yours are
causing the shell to crash when you power down and one result would
be the reset Quick Launch bar.

Perhaps your local PC supplier can meet with you and give you their
view on how they see your customizations. But would you value what
they say?

On Mon 21 Jan 2008 02:27:15, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> To prove the point, may I ask you a question?
> ----> Have you ever needed the "Search" button in Windows? <----
> I don't and nobody who follows my lead does either.
>

That says it all.

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:42:21 -0600, Ron May wrote:
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/4t92w

Hi Ron May,

Thank you very much for helping to answer the question posed!
I think it worked. Time will tell if there are any issues.

Here is what I did for others to try should they be not afraid to move the
menus out of the Documents and Settings clutter into a location of their
choosing.

0. Decide where you wish to store your customized menus:
Start -> Run -> cmd <Return>
c:\> mkdir c:\data\My Menus ... ooops... Windows is stupid when it comes to
spaces.... try this instead of forever surrounding commands with quotes
c:\> mkdir c:\data\menus

1. Copy existing personal well-organized menus (in this case, in "donna")
FROM:
C:\Documents and Settings\donna\Start Menu\My Menu
TO:
C:\data\menus\My Menu

2. Navigate to the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE hive "User Shell Folders" key:
Start -> Run -> Regedit
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\User Shell Folders

Notice the set of values of type REG_EXPAND_SZ:
Common AppData = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Application Data
Common Desktop = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Desktop
Common Documents = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Documents
Common Favorites = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Favorites
Common Programs = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu\Programs
Common Start Menu = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu
Common Startup = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu\Programs\Startup
Common Templates = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Templates

3. Change the "Common Start Menu"
FROM:
Common Start Menu = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu
TO:
Common Start Menu = c:\data\menus

4. Voila!
Reboot Windows XP and now your personalized menus are stored where you
want them. Make sure the menus reflect EXACTLY the hierarchy you use for
your programs and for your application-data directory, e.g.,
archivers, browsers, calendars, digitizers, editors, financials, games,
hardware, internet, etc.

Thanks go to Ron May & Franklin for this wonderful easy-to-follow tutorial!
Donna

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), tivoli0 wrote:
> I have created 4 folders on my desktop:
> Programs, Utilities, Docs, Music
> I have populeted each one of these folders with the relevent
> shortcuts to the *real files, creating any hirarchy, naming
> conventions, icons whatsoever.

Hi Tivoli,
This is a good organization which I agree with.
You have your "desktop menus" organized by function.

I carry it even further, in that I save my installers into the same
hierarchy (in a separate location) so that I can find them, even years
later, always in the same spot.

I carry that even further, in that I install into the same hierarchy (in
yet another location), again, so that whenever I need to find a program,
it's always in the same spot.

Likewise, I carry that even further in that I save the application related
data and setup files in the same hierarchy (in yet another location), so
that I always know where files are to back up.

In my very humble opinion, as long as this 4-part common installation
(menus, installers, programs, and application data) is set up AHEAD of
time, (i.e., BEFORE THE PC is used), then it's very easy to maintain as
nothing ever goes in the wrong place.

Your approach is perfect as an after-the-fact organization, and, I'm sure,
is what many people do. I just carry it one step further by doing the same
organization for all four areas ...
- installers
- programs
- application data
- menus

Donna

The suggested URL doesn't have a web page associated with it.

I always save the associated web page with the installer so that there is
an archived reference when I go back to the installer, perhaps years later.

So, for others following this thread to act upon, here is the URL to all
the WinXP power toys that has a landing page associated with it
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

In case it's needed, I saved the Microsoft Power Toys in, for example:
- C:\My Installers\OS Additions\Power Toys\<name of power toy>

I didn't install them (because a simple registry hand edit sufficed), but
if I were to install the power toys, I'd try to put them in, for example:
- C:\My Programs\OS Additions\Power Toys\<name of power toy>

And, if I were to use the power toy, there would be a menu selection to
them in the same logical location, for example:
- C:\My Menus\OS Additions\Power Toys\<name of power toy>

Lastly, if the power toy were to have any configuration or setup or data
storage location, it too would be in the same logical location, for
example:
- C:\Application Data\OS Additions\Power Toys\<name of power toy>

Of course, all this has to be thought out BEFORE you install your first
program (which is why this is a deployment suggestion of the first order)
.... otherwise all you can do is the menus to clean up the Microsoft mess
you'll have on your hands.

Donna

Note: My hierarchy is named differently; I used these names for explanatory
purposes (for example, I never use names with spaces because Windows still
doesn't handle spaces well in command line or registry or url hand-typed
situations).

Note 2: I'm well aware, lest someone point this out, that Microsoft is one
of the toughest companies to place their data in reasonable locations; so,
I would fully expect Power Toys to give me a problem with the hierarchy
above, simply because it comes from the company that doesn't have the
concept. Luckily, I can avoid Microsoft applications and stick to Windows
freeware - which almost always (except in the case of cutePDF) follows
naming conventions perfectly (because of this, I switched to the BullZip
freeware pdf printer which does follow these conventions).

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in message news:drVkj.4363$jJ5.3341@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
<snip>

> 2. Navigate to the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE hive "User Shell Folders" key:
> Start -> Run -> Regedit
> HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\User Shell
> Folders
>
> Notice the set of values of type REG_EXPAND_SZ:
> Common AppData = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Application Data
> Common Desktop = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Desktop
> Common Documents = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Documents
> Common Favorites = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Favorites
> Common Programs = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu\Programs
> Common Start Menu = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu
> Common Startup = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu\Programs\Startup
> Common Templates = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Templates
>
> 3. Change the "Common Start Menu"
> FROM:
> Common Start Menu = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu
> TO:
> Common Start Menu = c:\data\menus
>
> 4. Voila!
> Reboot Windows XP and now your personalized menus are stored where
> you
> want them. Make sure the menus reflect EXACTLY the hierarchy you use
> for
> your programs and for your application-data directory, e.g.,
> archivers, browsers, calendars, digitizers, editors, financials,
> games,
> hardware, internet, etc.

As I understand the way the Common Start Menu registry key is used, some
application installers will place their shortcuts into this location.
Specifically, many installers that automatically create shortcuts for
all users of the system will place them there, as will those that have
the option to install for all users if that option is chosen. Since you
have said you want Windows to leave your personalized menus alone, this
approach won't necessarily get you there.

Regards,

Dave

On Mon 21 Jan 2008 04:39:32, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> The goal is to rebuilt the subsequent system in minutes after the
> OS has been installed; with the same menus, simply by copying over
> two well-organized directories, in their entirety, from the old
> machine to the new machine and then reinstalling the apps, one by
> one.


I am sure you will have fun because the way you describe will leave
behind application settings in the registry and in Documents & Settings
plus any DLLs in C:\Windows\*.

This is more usually done by building a skeleton master system and then
cloning its system partition to external storage to be subsequently
loaded on target PCs.

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:58:11 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>> The goal is to rebuilt the subsequent system in minutes

> I am sure you will have fun because the way you describe will leave
> behind application settings in the registry and in Documents & Settings
> plus any DLLs in C:\Windows\*.

Hi Franklin,
Aha! You missed the brilliance of it all.
(Remember, I've been doing this for decades longer than you.)

I don't have installation problems because ...
a) I never copy over the PROGRAMS directory.
b) I just copy over the INSTALLER, APPLICATION-DATA, & MENU directories!
c) I create a SKELETON programs directory (where there is a known place for
everything before I install a single application)!

This is the BEAUTY of this system in re-imaging a new PC!
i. No application setting or DLL or data is ever left behind!
ii. The programs themselves are all saved as the original installer!

If everyone did this, we'd ALL have well-organized easy-to-use PCs!

For deployment personnel to learn from my experience:
0. All I do is run a batch file on the newly imaged PC which creates the
same "mkdir" hierarchy in all four locations on the new system.
c:\My Installers\<well-organized-hierarchy-by-function>
c:\My Programs\<well-organized-hierarchy-by-function>
c:\My Application Data\<well-organized-hierarchy-by-function>
c:\My Start Menu\<well-organized-hierarchy-by-function>

Note: I changed the names to have spaces because people always accuse me of
being a UNIX or old-Windows proponent whenever I use lower-case examples
with no spaces in the names. It's a wierd but predictable gut reaction from
all the folks too young to have ever seen a well-organized file system that
followed naming conventions.

1. Then, I copy over the installers, application data, and menus. It is
very important to note that I leave the programs alone. I repeat - I do not
copy over the installed programs themselves. Loooong ago I tried many a
time to bring them over (using PC Magazine's InCTRL5, for example, to keep
the files in control). Alas, 'tis folly to try to do bring over installed
programs on a Microsoft system for all the reasons Franklin noted.

2. Then, I just click on the installers, one by one, manually because I
don't do it often enough to employ a cloning system, to reinstall the
programs (this brings along all the needed dynamic linked libraries).

3. As I install the new programs, I set up their configuration to fit the
previous PC's organization (honing it each time, which I've done for dozens
of iterations). It's not hard since it's as intuitive possible. Everything
has the same hierarchy so the user always knows what it is without
thinking.

4. Voila! In minutes, the second PC is organized as well as the first (or
better since I constantly honed the process to near perfection).

5. It must be noted, there *are* some badly written freeware programs which
refuse to either install where they belong (e.g., cutePDF, which started
this whole thread in the first place) or which refuse to allow data to go
where it belongs (e.g., Microsoft products). The good news is these are
avoided at all costs (e.g., we switched from cutePDF to BullZip freeware
PDF creation and the problem was solved instantly). Over time, we simply
migrate to well-behaved programs and ignore the badly written ones (e.g.,
most Microsoft products).

It's no wonder people here have a hard time with this system as it's too
well organized and thought out for them. But, believe me, it's brilliant,
by design.

Advantages:
- The user has the SAME system (the only thing that changes is the PC).
- It's fast (not as fast as cloning, but, nothing here precludes cloning).
- We never lose data (it's always reused because it's the same)

Disadvantages:
- You have to know where things belong, ahead of time.

Donna

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:38:11 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:58:11 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>>> The goal is to rebuilt the subsequent system in minutes
>
>> I am sure you will have fun because the way you describe will leave
>> behind application settings in the registry and in Documents & Settings
>> plus any DLLs in C:\Windows\*.
>
> Hi Franklin,
> Aha! You missed the brilliance of it all.
> (Remember, I've been doing this for decades longer than you.)

Yeah, well, I bet I made more money.

pfffft

ProstituteWare
--
See Brenda's UniWorldWare
http://tinyurl.com/nm2yt

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

> Is there a way to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of the
> hopelessly cluttered "documents and settings" hierarchy?
>
> For example, how could we manage our start-programs menus in, say,
> c:\menus\<link>
>
> Instead of where Windows insists on putting it, e.g.,
> c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\programs\<link>
>
> FOR EXPERTS ONLY:
> How can we create a Start Menu that is outside the Documents and
> Settings hierarchy on Windows XP?

Someone has probably answered this already.

They are called junctions or symbolic links - go to
www.sysinternals.com and get juntion utility and you will be able to
create a symbolic link to the other directory. How much it helps with
clutter is up to you.

Toad

--

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:37:58 GMT, Franklin wrote:

> Donna will say her project is looking good. Donna will suggest that
> we move on to the next question in her quiz.
>
> Donna now wants to know how she changes the color of her system's
> LEDs? The lights on Donna's system are so pretty but green does not
> go at all with her desk stationery. It's such a nuisance for Donna.
> Donna would like them to be blue or orange. Donna feels it's so
> important. Donna simply must do it. Donna needs help.
>
> Donna will later explain voltage-dependent color LEDs. But only
> after Donna has had a good discussion to make sure.

You're asking for Bare Buttoms to come along and give you a good old time
tongue lashing for saying such truthful things about DonnaWare.
--
See Brenda's UniWorldWare
http://tinyurl.com/nm2yt