How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents a..

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 18:54:15, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>> Your preference for no spaces in a file name is puzzling and
>> perhaps comes from another older OS. Don't overlook anything on
>> LFNs when you start reading about Windows.
>
> The "don't put anything in a directory with spaces in the name" was
> just an aphorism to tell people to avoid the most cluttered system
> directories,

Donna, I have tried to explain things by suggestion but you don't
seem to be able to understand. I feel I need to be much more blunt.

What you have just described is no more than parading your ignorance
as if it were a virtue. It is a foolish thing and you would do well
not to repeat such aphorisms.

> e.g., "Program Files" which is organized haphazardly
> by brand name, not function;

I have already posted to you that if this occurs it is usually
because YOU have accepted that name. Why can't you understand what I
wrote? is it because you have a need to keep saying the same message
each time? What's more, you need to stop complaining about Windows
and persoanlly accept some of the responsibility for the criticisms
you level at it.

I can not think of anything more stupid than permitting a name at
installation and then maoning to the Usenet that it is the fault of
Windows. At worst it is the fault of the software authors.

> and "Documents and Settings" which has
> temporary files and profiles and application files all mixed up by
> both brand name and by function; etc.

What on earth did did you expect to find there, a copy of Shakespeare
because it's a "document"? Wake up.

>
> The point is that these directories are hopelessly cluttered and
> disorganized before you even start using the Windows PC for the
> first time.
>

Even the greenest neophyte doesn't have the problems with the
organisation of these folders which you seem to obsess over.

Here's a genuine tip - never go into D&S because there is no need for
you to do so. Resist even if you feel impelled to. It is not a
directory for people like you.

Why don't you read a beginners book on Windows and see if they tell
you to look in D&S as a regular place to go? Please read a book on
Windows.


> In the past, I used to try to manage them but the situation is
> hopeless as neither Program Files nor Documents and Settings is
> totally under your control.
>
> That's why I tell everyone to avoid them like you avoid mass
> murderors. You can't trust what they'll do.
>
> The aphorism of avoiding directories with a space in the name is
> merely an easy way for people to remember these directories. The
> actual space in the name is meaningless as Windows XP handles
> (most) spaces well (the registry still has problems with them and
> typing commands in the run window still has problems with them so I
> never use spaces but that's another topic altogether).
>

In that case don't use the RUN window. Ever. Unless instructed by
someone who understands Windows. There is no need for a user at your
level to use RUN. Honestly.

> Point is, the only way to organize a Windows PC is to control the
> organization yourself - and the only control you will ever fully
> have is with your own directory tree.

That is an way of thinking from Win98 where control was possible. I
have over 150,000 files in my D&S. What do you want to do with
those? Do you feel impelled to come round here and organise them for
me? No, I'm sure not. Just leave them alone, they are in the right
place and doing the right thing.

>
> c:\my installers
> c:\my programs
> c:\my documents
> c:\my settings
> c:\my menus
> etc.
>

I have said this is a Win9X approach. You are not using Win9X
architecture when using WinXP.


> My only problem is figuring out how to place the Start Menu menus
> in "c:\my menus" instead of in the hopelessly cluttered "Documents
> and Settings" hierarchy.

I think your problem is finding a way to leave well alone.

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 18:59:07, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>> What is going to happen to the PCs you have so heavily customized
>> to suit your personal ideas of what a PC's folder structure should
>> look like? It seems likely that unless you keep good
>> documentation then such PC configurations may well be completely
>> unmaintainable
>
> Quite the contrary.
>
> What happens is people ignore the cluttered mess inherent in
> "Program Files" and "Documents and Settings" and blissfully
> maintain a clean PC hierarchy which requires no explanation
> (except, for some reason, to you).
>
> Simple rule: Know where you will put things before you put them
> there.
>
> 1. Installers go in C:\My Installers
> 2. Programs go in C:\My Programs
> 3. Program data goes in C:\My Data
> 4. Menus (try to) go in C:\My Menus
> etc.
>
> Such a PC configuration is inherently maintainable by people age 70
> and 80 without any problems. It's the disorganized mess in "Program
> Files" and in "Documents and Settings" that is hopelessly cluttered
> and never to be understood fully.
>
> I've never had a problem explaining this to my friends, all of whom
> are retired and decidedly not computer experts ... that I'm shocked
> that this point is lost on this group.
>
> Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound?
> Or, it is a non sequitur to everyone else but me?

Your thinking creates a maintenance liability for your organization.
Everyone starts with no knowledge but you don't seem to be able to
hear information when it is told to you.

I am sorry to say it but if I were in your organization I would limit
and further messing up of the PCs by removing all of them from you
immediately. I would have someone remedy the tidiness you have
carefully created (and perhaps spent many fruitless hours on doing)
and put it all back to conventional operational structures whilst you
are still available to advise what exactly you have done. Then I
would put you on a training course for Windows with the understanding
that you do not being your iconoclastic strategies to bear but that
you limit questions to the material being taught.

Sadly, I suspect you may still not be able to accept that you go
can't make a major reorganization of the Windows folders in the way
you are so insistent upon without causing a maintenance nightmare as
well as increasing system fragility.

What do you want to do next - re-arrange the components on the PC's
motherboard so they all line up the same way?

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 20:00:41, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>> If all you want to do is have a menu of shortcut links then why
>> not use the Quick Launch bar (see Google). XP's Quick Launch bar
>> can be squashed up so that it pops up as a menu when clicked on.
>
> We already have no problem maintaining our own menus outside of the
> frail Quick Launch mechanism (which seems to dissapear every time
> the machine reboots unnaturally).
>
> What we have a problem with is moving "My Menu" from the "Documents
> and Settings" hopelessly cluttered hierarchy into a clean "C:\My
> Menus" hierarchy - that's all.
>
> All we want to know is how to press "Start -> My Menus" and pull up
> our menus from "C:\My Menus". Is it possible?


I have already told you how to do this.

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 20:05:01, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>
>>> What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data
>>> should all go into a directory that I choose and that I maintain.
>>> I don't ever want anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that
>>> directory.
>>
>> Unfortunately that is not the deal.
>
> Actually, it is the deal.
>
> In my "C:\My Installers" directory, only I place downloads there.
> In my "C:\My Programs" directory, only I put the programs there.
> In my "C:\My Data" directory, only I allow programs to place data
> there.
>
> It isn't hard at all. Whenever I tell an octegenarian that they
> need to control where they put things and where their programs put
> things, they inherently understand me and have no problem with
> these directories.
>
> My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
> cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.
>
> All I'm trying to do is move the menus
> FROM
> c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\my menus
> TO
> c:\my menus
>
> Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?


Because you are unable to listen.

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 20:19:25, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:09:35 -0800, Don Kirkman wrote:
>>>Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound
>> I'm pretty much organized in the way you suggest;
>> I have C:\System, D:\Data, F:\Finance,G:\Genealogy,
>> I:\Applications, So I, qualified for your identified age group
>
> Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if only it was only my friends
> who cared about knowing exactly what files we put on our PCs and
> where.

This is getting beyond silliness. Do you honestly mean you can't see
that Don's organisation is nothing like the one you keep asking for?

Don has a system drive at C and just leaves it alone. I set my PC up
like this too. Why don't you do the same?

I hope you realize you are asking for something else. Sadly, I don't
think you can see this.

Just don't look too closely at C:\Windows or the registry as they may
be neat and tidy when you have finished but I couldn't guarantee if
you PC will boot again.

Goethe wrote, "Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action".

Learn from him. He was a great man.

>
> I'm guessing the younger generation is so scared by the computer
> that they let it run all over them.
>
> Reminds me when my husband Bill could fix a carbeurator or leaking
> radiator hose with popsicle sticks, frozen orange-juice cans, and
> hose clamps!
>
> I guess we are in the age group that still believes we can control
> the contraptions in our lives ... everyone else seems to have given
> up!
>
> If I could only get my Windows start menus into M:\Menus (using
> your organizational system), I'd be happier!
>

Could you ask Bill if he can fix it for you?

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:31:57 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> This is getting beyond silliness. Do you honestly mean you can't see
> that Don's organisation is nothing like the one you keep asking for?

No, frankly. I don't see the difference whatsoever.

Don has a different (virtual or otherwise) drive or partition for each of
his major task divisions (programs, installers, data, etc.). I have a
different top-level directory for each of my major task divisions
(programs, installers, data, etc.).

What's the difference you speak of?

Donna

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:31:57 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> Just don't look too closely at C:\Windows or the registry as they may
> be neat and tidy when you have finished but I couldn't guarantee if
> you PC will boot again.

C:\Windows is an abomination foisted upon us by the same organizationally
lacking coders at Microsoft who created the equally abominal "My Documents
and Settings" and illogically flat "Program Files".

My advice to all my friends.
- Store nothing in "C:\Windows" and never bother to go there.
- Store nothing in "C:\My Documents & Settings" except your Start Menu.
- Store nothing in "C:\Program Files" and delete what's there that you can.

As for the Windows registry, the only advice I give my friends is to create
"commands" by using Start -> Run -> Regedit to create, for example
HKLM/SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\<COMMAND>.exe
where the commands are things they do all the time, e.g.,
bookmark.exe (to save new bookmarks independent of browser)
todo.exe (to access their to-do list of activities)
dict.exe (to save interesting words they learn along the way)
phone.exe (to look up their address book)
etc.

Basically, any directory that is promulgated by Microsoft is an
abomination; our goal is to organize what we can and ignore or delete that
which we can't. Since "Windows" can't be deleted, it merely is ignored.
Same with the Windows registry.

Why do you find fault with that?

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:22:07 GMT, Jim wrote:
> At the young age of 77, I have no trouble maintaining XP using its existing
> structure. It isn't broken, so change is just busy work.

Hi Jim,
We're close in age. Who is changing Windows? I'm just organizing my files
the way they should be organized for me to always know where they are
before I even start.

All I'm asking is to see if Windows has the capabilities to store the Start
Menu in C:\My Menus.

Do you know if that's possible in Windows to store the Start Menu in C:\My
Menus?

Donna

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:20:51 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> Your thinking creates a maintenance liability for your organization.


Now frankly, I don't understand your point. Do you understand mine?

How is being able to back up data (it's all in "C:\My Data") a maintenance
liability?

I can merely back up only TWO directories on any PC in our charity and
rebuild the entire operating system without losing a shred of important
files!

All I have to do is back up "C:\My Data" and "C:\My Installers".

The "C:\My Installers" directory contains all the programs installed and
the "C:\My Data" directory contains all the application data of import and
the files saved by the user.

If it weren't for the users' menus being in that horrid Documents and
Settings hierarchy, I'd be done but I also have to move their menus over
from machine to machine (which is a simple copy process).

How is this wondrous ability to migrate from system to system merely by
copying over two directories and a set of menus a "maintenance liability"?

The recipient gets everything they had before, in the same place, with the
same names, with the same menus, with the same organization, merely by me
copying over two directories and one menu.

This is brilliant, by design. Is it only I that sees the genius in this
windows deployment setup or can you possibly see it for yourself?

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 23:42:59, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:31:57 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>> This is getting beyond silliness. Do you honestly mean you can't
>> see that Don's organisation is nothing like the one you keep
>> asking for?
>
> No, frankly. I don't see the difference whatsoever.
>
> Don has a different (virtual or otherwise) drive or partition for
> each of his major task divisions (programs, installers, data,
> etc.). I have a different top-level directory for each of my major
> task divisions (programs, installers, data, etc.).
>
> What's the difference you speak of?
>
> Donna


I have said ... Don has a system drive at C and just leaves it alone.

On Mon 21 Jan 2008 00:49:45, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:31:57 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>> Just don't look too closely at C:\Windows or the registry as they
>> may be neat and tidy when you have finished but I couldn't
>> guarantee if you PC will boot again.
>
> C:\Windows is an abomination foisted upon us by the same
> organizationally lacking coders at Microsoft who created the
> equally abominal "My Documents and Settings" and illogically flat
> "Program Files".
>
> My advice to all my friends.
> - Store nothing in "C:\Windows" and never bother to go there.
> - Store nothing in "C:\My Documents & Settings" except your Start
> Menu.
- Store nothing in "C:\Program Files" and delete what's there
> that you can.
>

At least this is entertaining.


> As for the Windows registry, the only advice I give my friends is
> to create "commands" by using Start -> Run -> Regedit to create,
> for example HKLM/SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App
> Paths\<COMMAND>.exe where the commands are things they do all the
> time, e.g., bookmark.exe (to save new bookmarks independent of
> browser) todo.exe (to access their to-do list of activities)
> dict.exe (to save interesting words they learn along the way)
> phone.exe (to look up their address book) etc.

Don't you think a shortcut would serve the same purpose and do so
without the risk?


> Basically, any directory that is promulgated by Microsoft is an
> abomination;

OK, I am getting a clearer picture now.


> our goal is to organize what we can and ignore or
> delete that which we can't.

This reminds me of the motto of some hostile deep-space civilization. I
must have Black Dwaft on my mind. You're not the hologram person are
you?


> Since "Windows" can't be deleted, it
> merely is ignored. Same with the Windows registry.

I'm sure someone with your initiative and determinmation could find a
way to delete the Windows directory.


> Why do you find fault with that?

No one could make this up because it's too bizarre. The sadddest thing
is that,presumably, help for children depends on the data your PCs
process and those PCs do not sound as if they are in great shape. Even
if their folders are tidy.

On Mon 21 Jan 2008 00:57:39, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> This is brilliant, by design. Is it only I that sees the genius in
> this windows deployment setup or can you possibly see it for
> yourself?

I can not speak for others but I do not see any genius or brilliance in
what you describe.

If you will permit me to be blune because in the end someone has to say
it, I see ill-informed amateurism with delusions of competence. Sorry
if that sounds harsh but you are a real liaibility. If you just
restricted yourself to your own home PC then you could happily do what
you liked but you appear to be in charge of others' PCs.

For example there are some strange hidden files over in C:\ that look
all lumpy. Maybe we can clear out boot.ini as there's nothing much in
there if you take a look and ntldr looks particularly useless. (Just
joking, but I hope you get my meaning.)

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:12:01 GMT, Franklin wrote:

> Path: newsdbm02.news.prodigy.net!newsdst02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!news-out.octanews.net!indigo.octanews.net!auth.brown.octanews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.setup_deployment,microsoft.public.windows.vista.installation_setup
> Subject: Re: How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents and Settings"?
> From: Franklin <no_user RemoveThis @www.invalid>
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> On Sun 20 Jan 2008 18:54:15, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
> <donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>>> Your preference for no spaces in a file name is puzzling and
>>> perhaps comes from another older OS. Don't overlook anything on
>>> LFNs when you start reading about Windows.
>>
>> The "don't put anything in a directory with spaces in the name" was
>> just an aphorism to tell people to avoid the most cluttered system
>> directories,
>
> Donna, I have tried to explain things by suggestion but you don't
> seem to be able to understand. I feel I need to be much more blunt.
>
> What you have just described is no more than parading your ignorance
> as if it were a virtue. It is a foolish thing and you would do well
> not to repeat such aphorisms.
>
>> e.g., "Program Files" which is organized haphazardly
>> by brand name, not function;
>
> I have already posted to you that if this occurs it is usually
> because YOU have accepted that name. Why can't you understand what I
> wrote? is it because you have a need to keep saying the same message
> each time? What's more, you need to stop complaining about Windows
> and persoanlly accept some of the responsibility for the criticisms
> you level at it.
>
> I can not think of anything more stupid than permitting a name at
> installation and then maoning to the Usenet that it is the fault of
> Windows. At worst it is the fault of the software authors.
>
>> and "Documents and Settings" which has
>> temporary files and profiles and application files all mixed up by
>> both brand name and by function; etc.
>
> What on earth did did you expect to find there, a copy of Shakespeare
> because it's a "document"? Wake up.
>
>>
>> The point is that these directories are hopelessly cluttered and
>> disorganized before you even start using the Windows PC for the
>> first time.
>>
>
> Even the greenest neophyte doesn't have the problems with the
> organisation of these folders which you seem to obsess over.
>
> Here's a genuine tip - never go into D&S because there is no need for
> you to do so. Resist even if you feel impelled to. It is not a
> directory for people like you.
>
> Why don't you read a beginners book on Windows and see if they tell
> you to look in D&S as a regular place to go? Please read a book on
> Windows.

Hi Franklin,
At the risk of sounding rude, due to my age, I probably have forgotten more
about Windows than you seem to know. I've read MANY books on Windows.

I used TRS-80 and CPM and a DEC PDP11 computer where we had to hand set the
boot address. I've use paper tape and punch cards and have personally used
IBM machines with real core memory (yes, core memory). I've programmed the
IBM 360 and IBM 370 using both JCL and assembly with paper tape and punch
cards and helped my husband build Motorola 68701 microprocessor boards when
we wire-wrapped the things and wrote in non-byte-swapped assembly code.

At one time, I knew all the assembly (e.g., LDA, JMP, JNZ, etc.)
instructions by their very hex digits. I could write and read hex programs
by heard. I've forgotten how to burn an EPROM over the years, but, I know a
hell of a lot about how a PC should and could be organized, simply because
I'm much older than you and therefore have decades of experience from the
ground up.

Before Sun was king, I learned on Masscomp; then Sun OS, and then Sun
Solaris before Linux took hold. Just about when Linus Torvalds was making
headway with Linux, I moved OUT of the computer business for a while,
having retired from teaching.

Yet, the one thing I've learned over the years, is that you own the
computer; not the other way around.

You take control of the computer; not the other way around.

You decide where data and programs go - and you always know, before you
start, where EVERY SINGLE FILE will reside on your computer and where every
single program will store its files. It's just basic computer science.

BTW, my system is brilliant, by design - so I'm not surprised you have
trouble understanding it (or believing in it - because I'm sure you
understand it). My system has been working ever since Windows debued (as
I'm sure yours has too).

I've moved from PC to PC and even from Macintoshes to PC's without losing
resource-fork data (of course, the programs had to be re-installed because
the binaries were incompatible).

The simple Windows setup rules to live by are:
- Store all your programs in a directory separate from Program Files in a
simple organizational tree (e.g., browsers, editors, calendars, mailers,
burners, players, etc.).
- Store all menus with the SAME tree as your programs!
- Store all installers with the SAME tree as your programs and menus.
- Never ever use the Microsoft-supplied directories; it's like herding
kittens; it just can't be efficiently done.
- Always go through all program settings to set exactly where all temporary
files go and where finished files go and never ever let them go into a
Microsoft-suggested directory.

All I'm asking is if anyone knows how to move the Start Menu from the
"Documents and Settings" directory over to C:\My Menus.

Is this question worth that much vitriol from the likes of you?
Donna