How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents a..

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 03:51:49, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Is there a way to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of the
> hopelessly cluttered "documents and settings" hierarchy?
>
> For example, how could we manage our start-programs menus in, say,
> c:\menus\<link>
>
> Instead of where Windows insists on putting it, e.g.,
> c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\programs\<link>
>
> FOR EXPERTS ONLY:
> How can we create a Start Menu that is outside the Documents and
> Settings hierarchy on Windows XP?


Donna

This is the second time in only a few days that you have asked this
qustion and you have already received replies the first time.

The deployment and installation groups you have used for cross-
posting suggest you don't think this is really a specific freeware
question. Ib fact I'm not too clear why it would be a deployment
question other than your own personal preference to make custom
modifications before deployment.

As a general observation, you seem to be trying to impose something a
bit like old-style DOS or Win9X system folder structure on
WinXP/Vista in order to tidy things up.

I suspect this will actually have the opposite effect because many
apps assume the usual folders exist in the place where XP/Vista would
normally have them. You mentioned this was already happening in your
first post.

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:00:19 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> This is the second time in only a few days that you have asked this
> qustion and you have already received replies the first time.

Hi Franklin,
I appreciate the help. I had posed the question as an aside in a
freeware-related thread - but then realized I should have posted it all by
itself in its own thread - so that's what I did.

> I'm not too clear why it would be a deployment question

It's actually a deployment question _and_ a freeware question.
Deployment because it's an initial setup setting.
Freeware because there must be freeware out there to manage menus.

> You seem to be trying to impose old-style folder structure on
> WinXP/Vista in order to tidy things up.

Not at all. All I am looking to do is tidy things up (as you noted) by
organizing my computer. That has nothing to do with old-style unless we all
simply give up on organizing our WinXP and Vista computers (something I
refuse to concede on).

> apps assume the usual folders exist in the place where XP/Vista would
> normally have them. You mentioned this was already happening in your
> first post.

This only happens for the badly written programs. More than 90% of the
programs I use are actually well written (i.e., they allow you to organize
your file system as you see fit). That is ...
- They allow you to put them where they belong
- They allow you to set their data directories where they belong

Now, the problem is the menus.
All I want to do is put my Windows menus where they belong.
I define where they belong - not Microsoft.
Why?

Well, I explained it in the prior thread; the quick summary would be that
Microsoft knows nothing about computer organization. The first glance at
the flat Program Files order-by-company-name would make anyone who is
organized aghast with horror. Same with the Start Menu.

Microsoft knows nothing about maintaining a clean PC hierarchy nor about
maintaining a clean Start Menu hierarchy (same hierarchy).

All I'm asking is how to do two things:
I. How to locate a Start Menu link OUTSIDE "Documents and Settings"
II. How to prevent any program from storing anything in that personal menu

Donna

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 12:41:18, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:00:19 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>>
>> This is the second time in only a few days that you have asked
>> this qustion and you have already received replies the first time.
>>
>
> Hi Franklin,
> I appreciate the help. I had posed the question as an aside in a
> freeware-related thread - but then realized I should have posted it
> all by itself in its own thread - so that's what I did.
>
>> I'm not too clear why it would be a deployment question
>
> It's actually a deployment question _and_ a freeware question.
> Deployment because it's an initial setup setting.
> Freeware because there must be freeware out there to manage menus.
>

Yes, it's true that it is both deployment and freeware. In reality,
it a deployment question and in addition you hope there is a freeware
solution.

The problem is that you could post about almost anything to do with
PCs and hope there is a freeware solution. Then we here in
alt.comp.freeware would be flooded out!


>> You seem to be trying to impose old-style folder structure on
>> WinXP/Vista in order to tidy things up.
>
> Not at all. All I am looking to do is tidy things up (as you noted)
> by organizing my computer. That has nothing to do with old-style
> unless we all simply give up on organizing our WinXP and Vista
> computers (something I refuse to concede on).
>
>> apps assume the usual folders exist in the place where XP/Vista
>> would normally have them. You mentioned this was already
>> happening in your first post.
>
> This only happens for the badly written programs. More than 90% of
> the programs I use are actually well written (i.e., they allow you
> to organize your file system as you see fit). That is ...
> - They allow you to put them where they belong
> - They allow you to set their data directories where they belong

I do not recognise the way you are using the term "file system". It
has a specific meaning and my understanding of that meaning does not
seem to fit with what you ask about a "file system".


>
> Now, the problem is the menus.
> All I want to do is put my Windows menus where they belong.
> I define where they belong - not Microsoft.
> Why?
>
> Well, I explained it in the prior thread; the quick summary would
> be that Microsoft knows nothing about computer organization.

I am not too sure how you are using "computer organization". Do you
mean how tidy the folders are? It is not really the purpose of an
typical operating system to keep its internal folders neat and tidy.
If you want that then maybe an object-oriented operating system would
suit you better than Windows.

> The
> first glance at the flat Program Files order-by-company-name would
> make anyone who is organized aghast with horror. Same with the
> Start Menu.

Most programs prompt the user to ask if the installation folder names
suits them. You can change the name at that point with almost no
effort. Often the same option is available to change the name of the
Start menu entry.

Below you ask about moving the Start Menu folder out of D&S but now I
am not convinced you really mean that. If it helps you, you can
rename any entry in the All Programs menu in the Start menu and you
can right click to re-sort them.

The All Program menu entries are merged from:
C:\Documents and Settings\%USER%\Start Menu\Programs
C:\Documents and Settings\ALL USERS\Start Menu\Programs

The items on the top left of the Start menu can be dragged to the
order you wish. The bottoms left is in use order and can be changed
to show a different number of entries. Those on the right side of
the Start menu are more or less fixed.

>
> Microsoft knows nothing about maintaining a clean PC hierarchy nor
> about maintaining a clean Start Menu hierarchy (same hierarchy).
>
> All I'm asking is how to do two things:
> I. How to locate a Start Menu link OUTSIDE "Documents and
> Settings"
>
> II. How to prevent any program from storing anything in
> that personal menu

What is a "personal menu" ? If you don't mind me saying, your
unusual terminology suggests you might do well to revise some of your
notes or books or web pages on Windows before you make any changes.
Better to learnt what the different components do before moving them
around in a big way.

Your approach reminds me a bit of someone who wants to keep their
desktop combined fax and phone machine clean. So they open it up and
give it good, dusting, wiping over and finish with a polishing up. If
the unprotected mirror silvering comes off the reflective bar (and I
have seen exactly this happen) then the fax machine will no longer
scan any documents.

But it will be clean!


>
> Donna
>

http://www.casav4c.org/staff.html ?

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:13:14 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> I do not recognise the way you are using the term "file system".

What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data should all go
into a directory that I choose and that I maintain. I don't ever want
anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that directory.

For example, if I were to back up my "documents and settings" directory, it
would be full of useless clutter. However, since I store all my desired
data into my own directory, I can back it up without adding clutter.

That's what I mean about the directories with spaces in the name. Since
they are system directories, they get filled up with useless clutter.

There are only four directories in my "file system" that I care about
managing:
- My installer directory (where I save my downloaded freeware programs)
- My programs directory (where I install the downloaded freeware programs)
- My menu directory (where I put shortcuts to the freeware executables)
- My data directory (where I store my important email, documents, etc.)

This thread is all about that last directory tree, the "menu" directory
tree.

If I leave it in "Documents & Setttings", a ton of useless clutter goes in
there, all organized haphazardly, some by application type, others by
application name, but all haphazard and unwanted.

All I want in this thread is to figure out how to maintain the menu
structure OUTSIDE that haphazard directory tree.

On Sun 20 Jan 2008 17:47:07, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:13:14 GMT, Franklin wrote:
>
>> I do not recognise the way you are using the term "file system".
>
> What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data
> should all go into a directory that I choose and that I maintain. I
> don't ever want anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that
> directory.

Unfortunately that is not the deal.

Why do you have such a strong and pressing need for your wishful
arrangement when literally hundreds of millions of other users manage
perfectly well with the way Windows has been designed?

Are you a new user who is finding Windows a bit awkward to
understand?

>
> For example, if I were to back up my "documents and settings"
> directory, it would be full of useless clutter. However, since I
> store all my desired data into my own directory, I can back it up
> without adding clutter.
>
> That's what I mean about the directories with spaces in the name.
> Since they are system directories, they get filled up with useless
> clutter.
>
> There are only four directories in my "file system" that I care
> about managing:
> - My installer directory (where I save my downloaded freeware
> programs)
> - My programs directory (where I install the downloaded
> freeware programs)
> - My menu directory (where I put shortcuts to
> the freeware executables)
> - My data directory (where I store my
> important email, documents, etc.)
>
> This thread is all about that last directory tree, the "menu"
> directory tree.
>
> If I leave it in "Documents & Setttings", a ton of useless clutter
> goes in there, all organized haphazardly, some by application type,
> others by application name, but all haphazard and unwanted.
>
> All I want in this thread is to figure out how to maintain the menu
> structure OUTSIDE that haphazard directory tree.


I am not sure of what your request to "maintain the menu structure"
actually means as I do not know anything about how you have set up
your "menu directory (where I put shortcuts to the freeware
executables)"

If all you want to do is have a menu of shortcut links then why not
use the Quick Launch bar (see Google). XP's Quick Launch bar can be
squashed up so that it pops up as a menu when clicked on.

What is going to happen to the PCs you have so heavily customized to
suit your personal ideas of what a PC's folder structure should look
like? It seems likely that unless you keep good documentation then
such PC configurations may well be completely unmaintainable by
anyone else as they are unlikely to share your notion that Windows
needs completely reorganizing.

Your preference for no spaces in a file name is puzzling and perhaps
comes from another older OS. Don't overlook anything on LFNs when
you start reading about Windows.

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> Your preference for no spaces in a file name is puzzling and perhaps
> comes from another older OS. Don't overlook anything on LFNs when
> you start reading about Windows.

The "don't put anything in a directory with spaces in the name" was just an
aphorism to tell people to avoid the most cluttered system directories,
e.g., "Program Files" which is organized haphazardly by brand name, not
function; and "Documents and Settings" which has temporary files and
profiles and application files all mixed up by both brand name and by
function; etc.

The point is that these directories are hopelessly cluttered and
disorganized before you even start using the Windows PC for the first time.

In the past, I used to try to manage them but the situation is hopeless as
neither Program Files nor Documents and Settings is totally under your
control.

That's why I tell everyone to avoid them like you avoid mass murderors. You
can't trust what they'll do.

The aphorism of avoiding directories with a space in the name is merely an
easy way for people to remember these directories. The actual space in the
name is meaningless as Windows XP handles (most) spaces well (the registry
still has problems with them and typing commands in the run window still
has problems with them so I never use spaces but that's another topic
altogether).

Point is, the only way to organize a Windows PC is to control the
organization yourself - and the only control you will ever fully have is
with your own directory tree.

c:\my installers
c:\my programs
c:\my documents
c:\my settings
c:\my menus
etc.

My only problem is figuring out how to place the Start Menu menus in "c:\my
menus" instead of in the hopelessly cluttered "Documents and Settings"
hierarchy.

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> What is going to happen to the PCs you have so heavily customized to
> suit your personal ideas of what a PC's folder structure should look
> like? It seems likely that unless you keep good documentation then
> such PC configurations may well be completely unmaintainable

Quite the contrary.

What happens is people ignore the cluttered mess inherent in "Program
Files" and "Documents and Settings" and blissfully maintain a clean PC
hierarchy which requires no explanation (except, for some reason, to you).

Simple rule: Know where you will put things before you put them there.

1. Installers go in C:\My Installers
2. Programs go in C:\My Programs
3. Program data goes in C:\My Data
4. Menus (try to) go in C:\My Menus
etc.

Such a PC configuration is inherently maintainable by people age 70 and 80
without any problems. It's the disorganized mess in "Program Files" and in
"Documents and Settings" that is hopelessly cluttered and never to be
understood fully.

I've never had a problem explaining this to my friends, all of whom are
retired and decidedly not computer experts ... that I'm shocked that this
point is lost on this group.

Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound?
Or, it is a non sequitur to everyone else but me?

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:09:35 -0800, Don Kirkman wrote:
>>Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound
> I'm pretty much organized in the way you suggest;
> I have C:\System, D:\Data, F:\Finance,G:\Genealogy, I:\Applications,
> So I, qualified for your identified age group

Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if only it was only my friends who
cared about knowing exactly what files we put on our PCs and where.

I'm guessing the younger generation is so scared by the computer that they
let it run all over them.

Reminds me when my husband Bill could fix a carbeurator or leaking radiator
hose with popsicle sticks, frozen orange-juice cans, and hose clamps!

I guess we are in the age group that still believes we can control the
contraptions in our lives ... everyone else seems to have given up!

If I could only get my Windows start menus into M:\Menus (using your
organizational system), I'd be happier!

Donna

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:
> If all you want to do is have a menu of shortcut links then why not
> use the Quick Launch bar (see Google). XP's Quick Launch bar can be
> squashed up so that it pops up as a menu when clicked on.

We already have no problem maintaining our own menus outside of the frail
Quick Launch mechanism (which seems to dissapear every time the machine
reboots unnaturally).

What we have a problem with is moving "My Menu" from the "Documents and
Settings" hopelessly cluttered hierarchy into a clean "C:\My Menus"
hierarchy - that's all.

All we want to know is how to press "Start -> My Menus" and pull up our
menus from "C:\My Menus". Is it possible?

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:52 GMT, Franklin wrote:

>> What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data
>> should all go into a directory that I choose and that I maintain. I
>> don't ever want anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that
>> directory.
>
> Unfortunately that is not the deal.

Actually, it is the deal.

In my "C:\My Installers" directory, only I place downloads there.
In my "C:\My Programs" directory, only I put the programs there.
In my "C:\My Data" directory, only I allow programs to place data there.

It isn't hard at all. Whenever I tell an octegenarian that they need to
control where they put things and where their programs put things, they
inherently understand me and have no problem with these directories.

My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.

All I'm trying to do is move the menus
FROM
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\my menus
TO
c:\my menus

Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

>>> What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data
>>> should all go into a directory that I choose and that I maintain. I
>>> don't ever want anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that
>>> directory.
>>
>> Unfortunately that is not the deal.
>
> Actually, it is the deal.
>
> In my "C:\My Installers" directory, only I place downloads there.
> In my "C:\My Programs" directory, only I put the programs there.
> In my "C:\My Data" directory, only I allow programs to place data
> there.

Note that anyone who has access to your computer will have access to all
those files. That might not be safe. It would be safer to place your
data in your individual "My Documents" heirarchy, which is located
inside your "Documents and Settings" heirarchy profile.

> It isn't hard at all. Whenever I tell an octegenarian that they need
> to control where they put things and where their programs put things,
> they inherently understand me and have no problem with these
> directories.

Those octagenarians probably aren't familiar with Windows security
issues.

> My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
> cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.

It doesn't have to be cluttered.

> All I'm trying to do is move the menus
> FROM
> c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\my menus
> TO
> c:\my menus
>
> Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

Probably because it creates a security issue. Anyone who has access to
the computer will be able to open any program (granted, they could do
that anyway if they learn their way around Windows Explorer).

Asking to move program shortcuts from the "Documents and Settings"
heirarchy is equivalent to asking to move installed programs from the
"My Computer" heirarchy. I don't think that can be easily done, if at
all. Changing the locations of your menu shortcuts is not the same as
changing the locations of your installers, programs or data.

Note that your C:\My Menus folder will be accessible to all users since
it is outside of your "Documents and Settings" heirarchy, but your
shortcuts belong to individual users, depending on what they install. I
think that's why Windows put them in the "Documents and Settings"
heirarchy.

No, you cannot put menu shortcuts in C:\My Menus and expect them to show
up under the Start->Programs menu unless you create some kind of script
that instantaneously copies your shortcuts from C:\My Menus to the
appropiate "Documents and Settings" heirarchy (or vice versa). And I'm
not absolutely sure even that can be done, especially if one of the
users doesn't have administrative control.

If all you want to do is organize the Start->Programs shortcuts, you can
rename and drag-and-drop the menu shortcuts while inside the
Start->Programs menu (you'll need to open the "Documents and Settings"
to create new folders though). Having those changes stored inside the
"Documents and Settings" heirarchy should be of no concern to you or the
user. In the end what's important is how the organized menus look when
you click the Start->Programs menu.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

> Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

Non-crossposted reply in ACF.

Cheers.

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:31:00 -0600, M.L. wrote:
>> My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
>> cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.
>
> It doesn't have to be cluttered.

Hi M.L.,
You are a voice of reason. I will respectfully disagree with you. I stress
that I respect your judgement so I will also take the courtesy to explain
why I think the "Documents and Settings" is hopelessly cluttered.

Example:
They put "Cookies" in Documents and Settings. Now, why would a user really
want to "save" cookies in their backup directory? It makes no sense.
Cookies are a function of the browser so they should not be in the user
area but in the browser temporary area (and, IMHO, deleted as soon as
possible).

Example:
They put *.sys files in there. What are they doing, often dozens of them,
in this user document and setting directory at the top level? They are
meaningless to the average user who has to wade through perhaps dozens of
*.inf, *.sys, and *.txt & *.log files haphazardly placed there by programs.
What are ANY files doing there at the top level of the directory?

Example:
There's a "Printhood" directory in there. What's it doing? It belongs in
the printer temporary folder, not in the users' documents and settings
backup folder.

Example:
There's an "Application Data" directory, which, upon first inspection,
appears to be a "good thing" but upon second looks, it is hopelessly
tangled in that you have almost no control over what goes in there and it's
all organized by brand not by function.

Example:
There is a "Favorites" directory which is funny because you wouldn't need a
favorites directory if you kept your system organized. Just the fact it
exists indicates the default setup is disorganized.

Example:
There is a NetHood folder; what's it doing there? Same as PrintHood it
should not be in the users document backup directory.

Example:
There is a "User Data" directory, which, upon first inspection, seems like
a good thing but just look inside. There's a set of alphabetically cryptic
directories which have nothing to do with users' data.

Example:
There is an "Incomplete" directory, which better belongs in a downloads
section than in a user backup data section.

About the only meaningful directory in here is "Desktop" which truly
contains Documents and Settings the user would want to save & back up.