a better Chkdsk?

I do know about the /f switch...
If I go to Run and enter chkdsk c:/f it will schedule a repair.... and
report no problems on re-booting.

VanguardLH wrote:
> "Frank" wrote in message news:OXssmi3gIHA.3352@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> XP Home SP2
>>
>> Norton's Disk Doctor says I have a "file structure problem", I have
>> "Fix Errors" checked and schedule a Repair on re-start.
>> On re-start, Windows runs Chkdsk and reports "no problems"
>>
>> Is there a better Utility to repair my HD?
>
>
> SpinRite
> www.grc.com
>
> Running "chkdsk" does absolutely nothing to fix any problems on the hard
> disk. It only does a scan to report any problems. If you want to
> attempt to fix them, include either the /f or /r command-line switches.
> Run "chkdsk /?" to get help on using chkdsk.

"Frank" wrote in message news:eixWQA4gIHA.5280@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>
> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>> "Frank" wrote ...
>>>
>>> XP Home SP2
>>>
>>> Norton's Disk Doctor says I have a "file structure problem", I
>>> have
>>> "Fix Errors" checked and schedule a Repair on re-start.
>>> On re-start, Windows runs Chkdsk and reports "no problems"
>>>
>>> Is there a better Utility to repair my HD?
>>
>> SpinRite
>> www.grc.com
>>
>> Running "chkdsk" does absolutely nothing to fix any problems on the
>> hard disk. It only does a scan to report any problems. If you
>> want to attempt to fix them, include either the /f or /r
>> command-line switches. Run "chkdsk /?" to get help on using
>> chkdsk.
>
> I do know about the /f switch...
> If I go to Run and enter chkdsk c:/f it will schedule a repair....
> and report no problems on re-booting.

Then use the /r switch to have chkdsk check the sectors are readable.
Rather than just check the file system is okay, it also ensures the
data is readable from the platters. It is not an infallible check. I
believe the OS will permit up to 5 retries to read a sector before
saying there is a problem reading from it, and hard disks may permit
up to, say, 3 retries before reporting an error, so it could be 15
retries total of which it could take only one, like the last one, to
get the data to pass the test.

SpinRite is a better low-level sector test utility but it isn't free.
What users don't realize is that retentivity of a sector wanes over
time unless its data is read and rewritten. The dipoles to record the
data are under magnetic stress and will alter alignment over time. If
magnetic data, which includes the file system, is not exercised, it
will lose its ability to be read. Microsoft has never provided a
utility to read and rewrite all bits in every sector on the hard disk.
They also provide poor utilities to determine the reliability or
retention of a sector's area on the hard disk, and sectors can lose
retentivity over time either because of non-use (dipolar shift) or due
to manufacturing defect or degradation. However, the time for such
degradation (physical or magnetic) is usually many years and users
often replace their hard drives before those problems show up by
getting a new computer (and new drives versus migrating the old drives
into the new host) or getting bigger drives.

So try "chkdsk /r" first. Also, I gave up on relying on Norton's Disk
Doctor a long time ago, but then I haven't used Norton products for
several years now. When NTFS v5 came out that Disk Doctor would start
reporting non-existing problems was when I gave up on it. They
might've fixed it since then but I never felt it was a reliable repair
tool. You didn't mention WHICH version of Disk Doctor that you are
running or from what version of whatever Norton suite it came bundled.
Maybe what you are trying to use is simply too old and unusable. I'm
not specifically trying to promote SpinRite but instead feel that Disk
Doctor is too lightweight a utility to fix any real [physical]
problems on a hard disk. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if "chkdsk
/r" was about as much as Disk Doctor could itself perform.

Frank wrote:

> XP Home SP2
>
> Norton's Disk Doctor says I have a "file structure problem", I have
> "Fix Errors" checked and schedule a Repair on re-start.
> On re-start, Windows runs Chkdsk and reports "no problems"
>
> Is there a better Utility to repair my HD?
>
> As a side issue, this is a FAT32 volume that will not convert to NTFS.
> (might be this subtle disk error causing the non-convert ??)

You've not told us if any errors were recorded in the System Event Log,
Convert failure errors are usually recorded there. Can you look at the
following registry key and tell us what is present there:

HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\BootExecute

John

Norton System Works 2006
I did not load the "junk" just the basics and Norton Utilities to get NDD.

Anyway, ran chkdsk c: /r on a re-boot
(on a 300gig drive, kind of like watching grass grow)
"no problems" reported.... strange


VanguardLH wrote:
> "Frank" wrote in message news:eixWQA4gIHA.5280@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>> "Frank" wrote ...
>>>>
>>>> XP Home SP2
>>>>
>>>> Norton's Disk Doctor says I have a "file structure problem", I have
>>>> "Fix Errors" checked and schedule a Repair on re-start.
>>>> On re-start, Windows runs Chkdsk and reports "no problems"
>>>>
>>>> Is there a better Utility to repair my HD?
>>>
>>> SpinRite
>>> www.grc.com
>>>
>>> Running "chkdsk" does absolutely nothing to fix any problems on the
>>> hard disk. It only does a scan to report any problems. If you want
>>> to attempt to fix them, include either the /f or /r command-line
>>> switches. Run "chkdsk /?" to get help on using chkdsk.
>>
>> I do know about the /f switch...
>> If I go to Run and enter chkdsk c:/f it will schedule a repair.... and
>> report no problems on re-booting.
>
> Then use the /r switch to have chkdsk check the sectors are readable.
> Rather than just check the file system is okay, it also ensures the data
> is readable from the platters. It is not an infallible check. I
> believe the OS will permit up to 5 retries to read a sector before
> saying there is a problem reading from it, and hard disks may permit up
> to, say, 3 retries before reporting an error, so it could be 15 retries
> total of which it could take only one, like the last one, to get the
> data to pass the test.
>
> SpinRite is a better low-level sector test utility but it isn't free.
> What users don't realize is that retentivity of a sector wanes over time
> unless its data is read and rewritten. The dipoles to record the data
> are under magnetic stress and will alter alignment over time. If
> magnetic data, which includes the file system, is not exercised, it will
> lose its ability to be read. Microsoft has never provided a utility to
> read and rewrite all bits in every sector on the hard disk. They also
> provide poor utilities to determine the reliability or retention of a
> sector's area on the hard disk, and sectors can lose retentivity over
> time either because of non-use (dipolar shift) or due to manufacturing
> defect or degradation. However, the time for such degradation (physical
> or magnetic) is usually many years and users often replace their hard
> drives before those problems show up by getting a new computer (and new
> drives versus migrating the old drives into the new host) or getting
> bigger drives.
>
> So try "chkdsk /r" first. Also, I gave up on relying on Norton's Disk
> Doctor a long time ago, but then I haven't used Norton products for
> several years now. When NTFS v5 came out that Disk Doctor would start
> reporting non-existing problems was when I gave up on it. They might've
> fixed it since then but I never felt it was a reliable repair tool. You
> didn't mention WHICH version of Disk Doctor that you are running or from
> what version of whatever Norton suite it came bundled. Maybe what you
> are trying to use is simply too old and unusable. I'm not specifically
> trying to promote SpinRite but instead feel that Disk Doctor is too
> lightweight a utility to fix any real [physical] problems on a hard
> disk. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if "chkdsk /r" was about as much
> as Disk Doctor could itself perform.

cleared the event log(s)
cmd window convert c: /fs:ntfs, all the usual messages, re-booted
Convert "ran", Windows re-started, still FAT32.
Event Log had no errors reported

Two other things:
double checked my cluster size... 4k
Heard after doing a Convert you have to rename the drive, did, no help.

The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist

at a loss,
Frank


John John wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>
>> XP Home SP2
>>
>> Norton's Disk Doctor says I have a "file structure problem", I have
>> "Fix Errors" checked and schedule a Repair on re-start.
>> On re-start, Windows runs Chkdsk and reports "no problems"
>>
>> Is there a better Utility to repair my HD?
>>
>> As a side issue, this is a FAT32 volume that will not convert to NTFS.
>> (might be this subtle disk error causing the non-convert ??)
>
> You've not told us if any errors were recorded in the System Event Log,
> Convert failure errors are usually recorded there. Can you look at the
> following registry key and tell us what is present there:
>
> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\BootExecute
>
> John
>

Frank wrote:


> The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist

The BootExecute value at:

HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager

*must* exist else you could not schedule chkdsk to run on reboot nor
could you have autoconv run on startup! BootExecute is a REG_MULTI_SZ
value in that key.

I'm thinking that maybe something Norton or something to do with AV
activity on reboot prevents the convert from happening?

John

From what I Googled, Symantec stopped any development of Disk Doctor
back in 2004, maybe earlier. So it is now an old utility. Also, the
last version of Norton utilities was to add missing programs, not to
update NDD. I would go with the results of "chkdsk /r" and forget
using the antiquated NDD utility.

"Frank" wrote in message news:OSCDUX6gIHA.5088@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> cleared the event log(s)
> cmd window convert c: /fs:ntfs, all the usual messages, re-booted
> Convert "ran", Windows re-started, still FAT32.
> Event Log had no errors reported
>
> Two other things:
> double checked my cluster size... 4k
> Heard after doing a Convert you have to rename the drive, did, no
> help.
>
> The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist


How much FREE disk space is there in the *partition* (not hard disk)
that you want to convert from FAT32 to NTFS? If there is insufficient
working space, the conversion won't happen.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314875/en-us

The article doesn't give specific values for free disk space. My
guess is that you probably need at least 20% free space within the
partition that you are trying to convert.

How LONG does the conversion execute? That is, from when you see the
conversion start to when it quits, how long is that? I haven't
performed a conversion in many years since I always start with an NTFS
partition, but I vaguely recall that a conversion took about as long
as formatting the partition.

Probably runs for 30 minutes.
300gig Partition, about 60 used so lots of free space.

VanguardLH wrote:
> "Frank" wrote in message news:OSCDUX6gIHA.5088@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> cleared the event log(s)
>> cmd window convert c: /fs:ntfs, all the usual messages, re-booted
>> Convert "ran", Windows re-started, still FAT32.
>> Event Log had no errors reported
>>
>> Two other things:
>> double checked my cluster size... 4k
>> Heard after doing a Convert you have to rename the drive, did, no help.
>>
>> The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist
>
>
> How much FREE disk space is there in the *partition* (not hard disk)
> that you want to convert from FAT32 to NTFS? If there is insufficient
> working space, the conversion won't happen.
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314875/en-us
>
> The article doesn't give specific values for free disk space. My guess
> is that you probably need at least 20% free space within the partition
> that you are trying to convert.
>
> How LONG does the conversion execute? That is, from when you see the
> conversion start to when it quits, how long is that? I haven't
> performed a conversion in many years since I always start with an NTFS
> partition, but I vaguely recall that a conversion took about as long as
> formatting the partition.

I have a desktop (clone) and two THinkpads all running XP/Home or Pro
and the key is not there...

How about HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session
Manager with 12 Sub-Folders ??



John John wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>
>
>> The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist
>
> The BootExecute value at:
>
> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager
>
> *must* exist else you could not schedule chkdsk to run on reboot nor
> could you have autoconv run on startup! BootExecute is a REG_MULTI_SZ
> value in that key.
>
> I'm thinking that maybe something Norton or something to do with AV
> activity on reboot prevents the convert from happening?
>
> John
>

Brain Dead..... sorry John

"HKLM" sure now sounds like HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
I guess I am getting toooooooo old for this stuff.
(my first computer center had 300 tons of air conditioning to keep it
cool..... plus the CPU was water cooled)

John John wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>
>
>> The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist
>
> The BootExecute value at:
>
> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager
>
> *must* exist else you could not schedule chkdsk to run on reboot nor
> could you have autoconv run on startup! BootExecute is a REG_MULTI_SZ
> value in that key.
>
> I'm thinking that maybe something Norton or something to do with AV
> activity on reboot prevents the convert from happening?
>
> John
>

BootExecute value is autocheck autochk* sprestrt



John John wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>
>
>> The HKLM...... Registry Key does not exist
>
> The BootExecute value at:
>
> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager
>
> *must* exist else you could not schedule chkdsk to run on reboot nor
> could you have autoconv run on startup! BootExecute is a REG_MULTI_SZ
> value in that key.
>
> I'm thinking that maybe something Norton or something to do with AV
> activity on reboot prevents the convert from happening?
>
> John
>

"Frank" <noreply.TakeThisOut@NoSpam.invalid> wrote in message
news:OoGxV08gIHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>> How much FREE disk space is there in the *partition* (not hard
>> disk) that you want to convert from FAT32 to NTFS? If there is
>> insufficient working space, the conversion won't happen.
>>
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314875/en-us
>>
>> The article doesn't give specific values for free disk space. My
>> guess is that you probably need at least 20% free space within the
>> partition that you are trying to convert.
>>
>> How LONG does the conversion execute? That is, from when you see
>> the conversion start to when it quits, how long is that? I haven't
>> performed a conversion in many years since I always start with an
>> NTFS partition, but I vaguely recall that a conversion took about
>> as long as formatting the partition.
>
> Probably runs for 30 minutes.
> 300gig Partition, about 60 used so lots of free space.


Is the hard disk:
- IDE (PATA)?
- SATA?
- USB connected?
- SCSI?
- BusLogic controller if SCSI?
- RAID involved?
- Dynamic disks?

At the end of the conversion (i.e., when the convert quits), do you
see any error or info message? Try adding the /v switch for verbose
mode.