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Since: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 151
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:58 am
Post subject: touch-screen cell phones
Imported from groups: misc>phone>mobile>iphone (more info?)
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Since: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 108
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:50 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Michelle Steiner" <michelle.RemoveThis@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-5A8F0B.08583619082009@news.eternal-september.org...
> How many touch screen cell phones were on the market on June 28, 2007?
Limiting the question to the US market, and based on my now dim
recollection, there were at least 5 models of Palm Treo touchscreen devices-
the 680, 700p and 755 based on the Palm OS, and the 700w and 750 based on
Windows Mobile, the HP 69xx series, HTC's Wizard and TyTn (sold by
AT&T/Cingular as the 8125 and 8525), the HTC Apache, (sold by Sprint and
Verizon as the 6700), and the Samsung i830 CDMA/GSM orld phone sold by
Verizon and Sprint.
So, offhand, at least ten.
> How many were on the market on June 29, 2007?
Eleven.
> How many are on the market today?
In the US, maybe two dozen to thirty?
> How many would be on the market today had Apple not developed the iPhone?
In the US, probably at least ten, same as before. In the past, there were
several manufacturers pumping out touchscreen smartphones wordwide- Palm,
HTC, Asus, Eten, Samsung, iMate, Toshiba, etc., but US carriers like simple
product lines to reduce inventory cost, particularly at the slower-selling
high-end; most carriers only carried one or two models of Palm OS and
Windows Mobile touchscreen device, presumably the model(s) they considered
the most profitable.
What Apple did was to show manufacturers that touch was a desirable feature
on "feature phones" (non-smartphones.) Prior to that, manufacturers assumed
touchscreens were the sole province of devices with lots of functions,
features and apps, and simply wasn't necessary on simpler devices with a
half-dozen or dozen functions, where buttons and scrolling menu interfaces
were sufficient.
Unfortunately, what Apple also did, to the detriment of many other
smartphones, was convince manufacturers that touchscreens and NO buttons was
what users wanted, so there are now a ton of awkward to use touchscreen
based phones that are difficult to use one-handed, since there is no other
way to navigate easily using just a thumb- no direction pad, no scroll
wheel, etc. This is particularly annoying to me as a Windows Mobile user,
since Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only OS,
whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons, yet HTC now churns
out baskets of iClones (like the new TouchPro 2) with no navigation possible
other than the touchscreen. (Ironically, it has a slide out QWERTY
keyboard, but with no arrow keys!) |
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External
Since: Jul 27, 2009
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <2Tijm.261965$E61.229793@newsfe09.iad>,
"Todd Allcock" <elecconnec DeleteThis @AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, what Apple also did, to the detriment of many other
> smartphones, was convince manufacturers that touchscreens and NO buttons was
> what users wanted, so there are now a ton of awkward to use touchscreen
> based phones that are difficult to use one-handed, since there is no other
> way to navigate easily using just a thumb- no direction pad, no scroll
> wheel, etc. This is particularly annoying to me as a Windows Mobile user,
> since Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only OS,
> whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons, yet HTC now churns
> out baskets of iClones (like the new TouchPro 2) with no navigation possible
> other than the touchscreen. (Ironically, it has a slide out QWERTY
> keyboard, but with no arrow keys!)
Wait, HTC designed a lousy device, but this is somehow Apple's fault?
Gee, they're even more insidious and devious than I would have imagined.
--
Tom "Tom" Harrington
Independent Mac OS X developer since 2002
http://www.atomicbird.com/ |
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Since: Apr 23, 2008
Posts: 735
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:55 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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At 20 Aug 2009 15:16:50 -0600 Tom Harrington wrote:
> > Unfortunately, what Apple also did, to the detriment of many other
> > smartphones, was convince manufacturers that touchscreens and NO
buttons was
> > what users wanted, so there are now a ton of awkward to use touchscreen
> > based phones that are difficult to use one-handed, since there is no
other
> > way to navigate easily using just a thumb- no direction pad, no scroll
> > wheel, etc. This is particularly annoying to me as a Windows Mobile
user,
> > since Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only
OS,
> > whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons, yet HTC now
churns
> > out baskets of iClones (like the new TouchPro 2) with no navigation
possible
> > other than the touchscreen. (Ironically, it has a slide out QWERTY
> > keyboard, but with no arrow keys!)
>
> Wait, HTC designed a lousy device, but this is somehow Apple's fault?
> Gee, they're even more insidious and devious than I would have imagined.
I'm not suggesting it's Apple's fault- it's purely the fault of the copycat
manufacturers who are too stupid to see exactly what made the iPhone so
popular- it wasn't just the form factor- it was the UI and ease of use.
They are simply copying the easiest aspect to copy- the look, which will
result in mediocre products, like those $50 iPod Nano clones with
directional buttons arranged in a click-wheel shape that flooded eBay a few
years ago.
The best example of this was the Blackberry Storm- by abandoning what makes
a Blackberry a great device in its own right, the QWERTY keyboard, they
made a lame "iPhoney," as well as a very mediocre Blackberry. |
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iPhone 3GS KICKS some ser
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External
Since: Aug 18, 2009
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:49 am
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Aug 21, 3:01 am, Mike <mikeloveschampagneandru... RemoveThis @googlemail.com>
wrote:
> Todd Allcock wrote:
> > At 20 Aug 2009 15:16:50 -0600 Tom Harrington wrote:
>
> >>> Unfortunately, what Apple also did, to the detriment of many other
> >>> smartphones, was convince manufacturers that touchscreens and NO
> > buttons was
> >>> what users wanted, so there are now a ton of awkward to use touchscreen
> >>> based phones that are difficult to use one-handed, since there is no
> > other
> >>> way to navigate easily using just a thumb- no direction pad, no scroll
> >>> wheel, etc. This is particularly annoying to me as a Windows Mobile
> > user,
> >>> since Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only
> > OS,
> >>> whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons, yet HTC now
> > churns
> >>> out baskets of iClones (like the new TouchPro 2) with no navigation
> > possible
> >>> other than the touchscreen. (Ironically, it has a slide out QWERTY
> >>> keyboard, but with no arrow keys!)
> >> Wait, HTC designed a lousy device, but this is somehow Apple's fault?
> >> Gee, they're even more insidious and devious than I would have imagined.
>
> > I'm not suggesting it's Apple's fault- it's purely the fault of the copycat
> > manufacturers who are too stupid to see exactly what made the iPhone so
> > popular- it wasn't just the form factor- it was the UI and ease of use.
> > They are simply copying the easiest aspect to copy- the look, which will
> > result in mediocre products, like those $50 iPod Nano clones with
> > directional buttons arranged in a click-wheel shape that flooded eBay a few
> > years ago.
>
> > The best example of this was the Blackberry Storm- by abandoning what makes
> > a Blackberry a great device in its own right, the QWERTY keyboard, they
> > made a lame "iPhoney," as well as a very mediocre Blackberry.
>
> Quite agree the iphone is a package the UI is brilliant but another big
> part of the package is itunes and the apps. As well as about a dozen
> gamesI have another dozen really useful apps (most free!) that I use
> regularly and another dozen I install quickly and easily via itunes when
> I need them. I remove them just as easily. Amongst the apps that get
> almost daily use is ebay, DOF master, TapDefense and sky news.
>
> I've just put London tube status and rail times on as I'm heading to
> London this weekend, they'll stay there for a month as I have a series
> of mtgs in London and then I'll remove them.
>
> It does worry me that I now find it impossible to imagine doing without
> some of these apps. I could replace the phone easily as there are
> better phones but no better device.
>
> Mike
I have 380 apps on a 3GS, one takes almost 1.2 GB. Why do you feel the
need to remove a few apps that you may normally want at some time?
I still have room for videos and lots of audio books and magazines,
music. etc.
Most apps for the iPhone take very little room. My really big apps
have a lot of data associated with them. |
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External
Since: Sep 23, 2008
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Todd Allcock wrote:
> At 20 Aug 2009 15:16:50 -0600 Tom Harrington wrote:
>
>>> Unfortunately, what Apple also did, to the detriment of many other
>>> smartphones, was convince manufacturers that touchscreens and NO
> buttons was
>>> what users wanted, so there are now a ton of awkward to use touchscreen
>>> based phones that are difficult to use one-handed, since there is no
> other
>>> way to navigate easily using just a thumb- no direction pad, no scroll
>>> wheel, etc. This is particularly annoying to me as a Windows Mobile
> user,
>>> since Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only
> OS,
>>> whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons, yet HTC now
> churns
>>> out baskets of iClones (like the new TouchPro 2) with no navigation
> possible
>>> other than the touchscreen. (Ironically, it has a slide out QWERTY
>>> keyboard, but with no arrow keys!)
>> Wait, HTC designed a lousy device, but this is somehow Apple's fault?
>> Gee, they're even more insidious and devious than I would have imagined.
>
>
> I'm not suggesting it's Apple's fault- it's purely the fault of the copycat
> manufacturers who are too stupid to see exactly what made the iPhone so
> popular- it wasn't just the form factor- it was the UI and ease of use.
> They are simply copying the easiest aspect to copy- the look, which will
> result in mediocre products, like those $50 iPod Nano clones with
> directional buttons arranged in a click-wheel shape that flooded eBay a few
> years ago.
>
> The best example of this was the Blackberry Storm- by abandoning what makes
> a Blackberry a great device in its own right, the QWERTY keyboard, they
> made a lame "iPhoney," as well as a very mediocre Blackberry.
>
Quite agree the iphone is a package the UI is brilliant but another big
part of the package is itunes and the apps. As well as about a dozen
gamesI have another dozen really useful apps (most free!) that I use
regularly and another dozen I install quickly and easily via itunes when
I need them. I remove them just as easily. Amongst the apps that get
almost daily use is ebay, DOF master, TapDefense and sky news.
I've just put London tube status and rail times on as I'm heading to
London this weekend, they'll stay there for a month as I have a series
of mtgs in London and then I'll remove them.
It does worry me that I now find it impossible to imagine doing without
some of these apps. I could replace the phone easily as there are
better phones but no better device.
Mike |
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External
Since: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 151
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Sep 23, 2008
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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iPhone 3GS KICKS some serious DONKEY!! wrote:
> On Aug 21, 3:01 am, Mike <mikeloveschampagneandru....TakeThisOut@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>> Todd Allcock wrote:
>>> At 20 Aug 2009 15:16:50 -0600 Tom Harrington wrote:
>>>>> Unfortunately, what Apple also did, to the detriment of many other
>>>>> smartphones, was convince manufacturers that touchscreens and NO
>>> buttons was
>>>>> what users wanted, so there are now a ton of awkward to use touchscreen
>>>>> based phones that are difficult to use one-handed, since there is no
>>> other
>>>>> way to navigate easily using just a thumb- no direction pad, no scroll
>>>>> wheel, etc. This is particularly annoying to me as a Windows Mobile
>>> user,
>>>>> since Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only
>>> OS,
>>>>> whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons, yet HTC now
>>> churns
>>>>> out baskets of iClones (like the new TouchPro 2) with no navigation
>>> possible
>>>>> other than the touchscreen. (Ironically, it has a slide out QWERTY
>>>>> keyboard, but with no arrow keys!)
>>>> Wait, HTC designed a lousy device, but this is somehow Apple's fault?
>>>> Gee, they're even more insidious and devious than I would have imagined.
>>> I'm not suggesting it's Apple's fault- it's purely the fault of the copycat
>>> manufacturers who are too stupid to see exactly what made the iPhone so
>>> popular- it wasn't just the form factor- it was the UI and ease of use.
>>> They are simply copying the easiest aspect to copy- the look, which will
>>> result in mediocre products, like those $50 iPod Nano clones with
>>> directional buttons arranged in a click-wheel shape that flooded eBay a few
>>> years ago.
>>> The best example of this was the Blackberry Storm- by abandoning what makes
>>> a Blackberry a great device in its own right, the QWERTY keyboard, they
>>> made a lame "iPhoney," as well as a very mediocre Blackberry.
>> Quite agree the iphone is a package the UI is brilliant but another big
>> part of the package is itunes and the apps. As well as about a dozen
>> gamesI have another dozen really useful apps (most free!) that I use
>> regularly and another dozen I install quickly and easily via itunes when
>> I need them. I remove them just as easily. Amongst the apps that get
>> almost daily use is ebay, DOF master, TapDefense and sky news.
>>
>> I've just put London tube status and rail times on as I'm heading to
>> London this weekend, they'll stay there for a month as I have a series
>> of mtgs in London and then I'll remove them.
>>
>> It does worry me that I now find it impossible to imagine doing without
>> some of these apps. I could replace the phone easily as there are
>> better phones but no better device.
>>
>> Mike
>
> I have 380 apps on a 3GS, one takes almost 1.2 GB. Why do you feel the
> need to remove a few apps that you may normally want at some time?
> I still have room for videos and lots of audio books and magazines,
> music. etc.
>
>
> Most apps for the iPhone take very little room. My really big apps
> have a lot of data associated with them.
Not a space issue, I'm just tidy! The largest apps tend to be paid for
and I only pay for an app if I'm goingto use it regularly so they stay on.
Mike
Mike |
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Since: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 108
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michelle Steiner" <michelle.RemoveThis@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-CB8E62.06404421082009@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <2Tijm.261965$E61.229793@newsfe09.iad>,
> "Todd Allcock" <elecconnec.RemoveThis@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
>
>> Limiting the question to the US market, and based on my now dim
>> recollection, there were at least 5 models of Palm Treo touchscreen
>> devices- the 680, 700p and 755 based on the Palm OS, and the 700w and
>> 750 based on Windows Mobile, the HP 69xx series, HTC's Wizard and
>> TyTn (sold by AT&T/Cingular as the 8125 and 8525), the HTC Apache,
>> (sold by Sprint and Verizon as the 6700), and the Samsung i830
>> CDMA/GSM orld phone sold by Verizon and Sprint.
>>
>> So, offhand, at least ten.
>
> Weren't they all hybrid systems, with physical keyboards, and not pure
> touchscreen phones?
I didn't realize you meant "touchscreen only." Most of them were, by the
time you specified (available for sale in 2007), hybrids, with QWERTY
keyboards either on the front panel, or in a slide-out panel, because that's
what the market was buying. The pure touchscreen phones of the previous
generation (2002-2004) like the Audiovox Thera and 4100, T-Mo "Pocket PC
Phone", AT&T's SX-56, etc., were all very niche slow sellers until the Treo
600 (with front panel keyboard) became the darling smartphone of the moment,
and all manufacturers jumped on the keyboard bandwagon and copied the Treo's
touch-plus-keyboard form factor. Very similar to today, where the iPhone's
market success is leading a trend away from front panel controls (and to a
lesser extent, keyboards) again. |
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Since: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 108
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:21 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"iPhone 3GS KICKS some serious DONKEY!!" <vic.healey DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in
message
news:a7c61e2f-092f-44f7-9d2b-35a6f2453104@z24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> I have 380 apps on a 3GS, one takes almost 1.2 GB. Why do you feel the
> need to remove a few apps that you may normally want at some time?
> I still have room for videos and lots of audio books and magazines,
> music. etc.
>
>
> Most apps for the iPhone take very little room. My really big apps
> have a lot of data associated with them.
For me it's a "cleanliness" thing. The app search feature in 3.0 was a
start, but it'd be nice if Apple would create a "nested" hierarchal
launcher. I'd like to create icons for "folders" of similar apps, so a page
(or pages) of "Games" could be launched from a "Games" icon, "Maps" for a
page of GPS/LBS programs, etc. This would force an extra screen tap or two
to launch apps nested two or three levels deep, but would be preferable (at
least to me) to the current "swipe until you find it" or search-for-apps
methods. I've set my WinMo phones up this way for years- tapping "Programs-
Maps- Google Maps," "Programs- Office- Excel," or "Programs- Media- Pandora"
is much easier, and more logical, than scrolling or flicking through several
dozen icons arranged alphabetically or randomly. |
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Since: Oct 05, 2008
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:25 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <2Tijm.261965$E61.229793@newsfe09.iad>,
"Todd Allcock" <elecconnec RemoveThis @AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
> Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only OS,
> whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons,
WinMo is supposed to gain a touch interface - towards the end of 2010
based on current announcements 
Marc
--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
<http://www.heusser.com> |
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Since: Apr 23, 2008
Posts: 735
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:57 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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At 21 Aug 2009 17:36:59 +0200 Marc Heusser wrote:
> > Apple's iPhone was designed from the ground-up to be a touch-only OS,
> > whereas WinMo was designed to use directional buttons,
>
> WinMo is supposed to gain a touch interface - towards the end of 2010
> based on current announcements
>
> Marc
The problem, as I see it, is even if we accept future iterations of the OS
will work flawlessly touch-only, many current apps, such as games, were
written when hardware directional controls were standard. Removing them
breaks compatibility with scores of older apps. |
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Since: Nov 30, 2008
Posts: 49
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2009-08-21, Todd Allcock <elecconnec.TakeThisOut@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
> For me it's a "cleanliness" thing. The app search feature in 3.0 was a
> start, but it'd be nice if Apple would create a "nested" hierarchal
> launcher. I'd like to create icons for "folders" of similar apps, so a page
> (or pages) of "Games" could be launched from a "Games" icon, "Maps" for a
> page of GPS/LBS programs, etc.
I agree. I'd have maybe 12 common programs on the main screen,
plus 4 categories in which I'd place my other apps. It seems
surprising this isn't already catered for. |
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External
Since: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 108
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnh8ucpf.d53.jon+usenet@snowy.squish.net...
> On 2009-08-21, Todd Allcock <elecconnec.DeleteThis@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
>> For me it's a "cleanliness" thing. The app search feature in 3.0 was a
>> start, but it'd be nice if Apple would create a "nested" hierarchal
>> launcher. I'd like to create icons for "folders" of similar apps, so a
>> page
>> (or pages) of "Games" could be launched from a "Games" icon, "Maps" for a
>> page of GPS/LBS programs, etc.
>
> I agree. I'd have maybe 12 common programs on the main screen,
> plus 4 categories in which I'd place my other apps. It seems
> surprising this isn't already catered for.
I suspect, like cut and paste, the problem isn't deciding that the feature
is useful, as much as just how to implement it logically in the UI. Unless
Apple wants to go all "WinMo" and start using popup context sensitive menus
(where holding the finger on the screen brings up some kind of dialog based
on what you're doing) how do you intuitively add folder/category creation to
the current "hold your finger down to start icon rearrange/app deletion"
fuction? (Once you figure out how to add folders to the launcher in the UI,
dragging icons into them is intuitive enough, of course.) Maybe a new
gesture on the home screen when you're in rearrange mode, like tracing a box
or circle with your finger, could mean create a new object.
Personally I'm a fan of contextual popups, but the iPhone has managed to
avoid them thus far, so I doubt they'll change that anytime soon- it would
probably look too "Windowsy." |
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Since: Nov 30, 2008
Posts: 49
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: touch-screen cell phones [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2009-08-22, Todd Allcock <elecconnec.RemoveThis@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
> I suspect, like cut and paste, the problem isn't deciding that the feature
> is useful, as much as just how to implement it logically in the UI. Unless
> Apple wants to go all "WinMo" and start using popup context sensitive menus
> (where holding the finger on the screen brings up some kind of dialog based
> on what you're doing) how do you intuitively add folder/category creation to
> the current "hold your finger down to start icon rearrange/app deletion"
> fuction?
Well, hold to go to "edit mode", then double-tap on a blank space to
create a new folder makes sense to me 
> Personally I'm a fan of contextual popups, but the iPhone has managed to
> avoid them thus far, so I doubt they'll change that anytime soon- it would
> probably look too "Windowsy."
Well it really wouldn't be consistent with the existing UI... |
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