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Tiered pricing for mobile data?

 
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poldy

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Since: Sep 16, 2008
Posts: 8



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:44 am
Post subject: Tiered pricing for mobile data?
Archived from groups: ba>internet, others (more info?)

http://www.slate.com/id/2231646/

Does heavy 3G data use account for dropped calls or poor reception?

What is AT&T going to spend $17 billion on? More 850Mhz towers?
Upgrading existing tower/base station sites? More backhaul bandwidth?

And $17 billion to upgrade existing 3G (HSDPA?) infrastructure? Weren't
they going to deploy LTE soon?

So if iPhone users on average use 5 times more data than other
smartphone users, would making iPhone available on other carriers
alleviate that? Well it might lead to price competition and a tiered
pricing scheme which might result in lower monthly costs could make one
carrier more attractive than another.

Article is right though that adding more capacity just encourages more
use -- induced traffic -- so the congestion problem returns.
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SMS

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Since: Jan 18, 2006
Posts: 1206



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:59 am
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

poldy wrote:
> http://www.slate.com/id/2231646/
>
> Does heavy 3G data use account for dropped calls or poor reception?
>
> What is AT&T going to spend $17 billion on? More 850Mhz towers?
> Upgrading existing tower/base station sites? More backhaul bandwidth?
>
> And $17 billion to upgrade existing 3G (HSDPA?) infrastructure? Weren't
> they going to deploy LTE soon?
>
> So if iPhone users on average use 5 times more data than other
> smartphone users, would making iPhone available on other carriers
> alleviate that? Well it might lead to price competition and a tiered
> pricing scheme which might result in lower monthly costs could make one
> carrier more attractive than another.
>
> Article is right though that adding more capacity just encourages more
> use -- induced traffic -- so the congestion problem returns.

What's more likely to happen is that other smart phones, Android and
Windows Mobile based, will be offered by other carriers and will begin
to equalize the 3G usage among all four carriers, rather than the way it
is now with one carrier, with one extremely popular device, being bogged
down. The new HTC Touch Pro 2 is a great product (works on Verizon's far
better 3G network with much greater coverage as well as European and
Asian GSM and W-CDMA networks), but HTC doesn't have a clue as to how to
market it so it will likely fail like other HTC products.

Android has the most potential, especially in terms of creating a base
of new applications that can compete against the Apple Apps store. The
Apps store was a brilliant marketing move that Android will have to
duplicate, and Google has the resources to do something similar. With
WinMo and Palm there were thousands of applications, but finding them
and buying them was a pain in the butt, and the developers were pricing
them based on the expectation of low volume sales.

The Gartner analyst recently evaluated the smart phone market three
years from now. Symbian will be #1, Android #2, iPhone #3, Windows
Mobile #4, and Blackberry #5.

Apple has probably locked up most of the iPhone users for life; they
aren't going to switch to a different platform unless there's a very
good reason to do so, so they'll struggle along on AT&T's network until
the iPhone LTE that works on multiple networks is introduced.
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John Higdon

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Since: Oct 08, 2009
Posts: 22



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:50 am
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <poldy-438C5E.08443808102009 RemoveThis @news.eternal-september.org>,
poldy <poldy RemoveThis @kfu.com> wrote:

> Does heavy 3G data use account for dropped calls or poor reception?

No. Data does not use channels set aside for voice.

> Article is right though that adding more capacity just encourages more
> use -- induced traffic -- so the congestion problem returns.

Do you feel that data traffic should be arbitrarily limited by squeezing
infrastructure capacity? The anti-car people use this argument against
building and improving highways, as if cars reproduce and occupy the
roadways independent of the needs of their owners.

If people need to use more data, then capacity should be increased.
Otherwise, why don't we just go back to dialup modems and be done with
it?

--
John Higdon
+1 408 ANdrews 6-4400
AT&T-Free At Last
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SMS

External


Since: Jan 18, 2006
Posts: 1206



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:18 am
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John Higdon wrote:
> In article <poldy-438C5E.08443808102009 DeleteThis @news.eternal-september.org>,
> poldy <poldy DeleteThis @kfu.com> wrote:
>
>> Does heavy 3G data use account for dropped calls or poor reception?
>
> No. Data does not use channels set aside for voice.

But voice is still carried on 3G if you have a 3G handset. Is there any
way of forcing a 3G handset to drop back from W-CDMA to GSM for voice?

Maybe the solution to problems with voice by 3G users is to use a non-3G
handset for voice so they aren't competing with iPhone 3G/3Gs users.

It'd be interesting to compare the dropped call experience of iPhone
3G/3Gs users to that of original iPhone users that aren't on 3G.

> Do you feel that data traffic should be arbitrarily limited by squeezing
> infrastructure capacity? The anti-car people use this argument against
> building and improving highways, as if cars reproduce and occupy the
> roadways independent of the needs of their owners.

It's always amusing to see a new freeway open, immediately become
gridlocked, and then see the anti-car people proclaim "see, we built a
new freeway and we still have gridlock, that proves we didn't need it."

When 85 was completed, yes it quickly became gridlocked, but much of the
traffic was removed from city streets. OTOH there is some truth to the
idea that additional capacity spurs additional suburban housing growth
that would otherwise not occur because without adequate transportation
no one would buy the properties.

> If people need to use more data, then capacity should be increased.
> Otherwise, why don't we just go back to dialup modems and be done with
> it?

I know one person that would be thrilled if dial-up came back because he
knew a lot about it, and he's been unable to keep up with newer
technologies.
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John Higdon

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Since: Oct 08, 2009
Posts: 22



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:36 am
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <4ace2cb1$0$1628$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS <scharf.steven.TakeThisOut@geemail.com> wrote:

> When 85 was completed, yes it quickly became gridlocked, but much of the
> traffic was removed from city streets. OTOH there is some truth to the
> idea that additional capacity spurs additional suburban housing growth
> that would otherwise not occur because without adequate transportation
> no one would buy the properties.

Adding one lane to the San Mateo bridge literally transformed the route
from a living joke to something that actually works.

Also, your point is well-taken. Traffic migrates to the easiest, fastest
route. Opening up more capacity on wireless routes, will result in
people using them instead of banging around looking for a usable WiFi
connection, or just waiting until getting back into the office.

> I know one person that would be thrilled if dial-up came back because he
> knew a lot about it, and he's been unable to keep up with newer
> technologies.

Almost like those (who post here, even) who are locked in time,
proclaiming that people don't "need" so much bandwidth.

--
John Higdon
+1 408 ANdrews 6-4400
AT&T-Free At Last
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Keith Keller

External


Since: Oct 08, 2009
Posts: 1



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to ba.internet.]

On 2009-10-08, SMS <scharf.steven RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>
> I know one person that would be thrilled if dial-up came back because he
> knew a lot about it, and he's been unable to keep up with newer
> technologies.

2400bps ought to be enough for anybody? Wink

--keith


--
kkeller-usenet RemoveThis @wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
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AES

External


Since: Oct 08, 2009
Posts: 2



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <higgy-460B2F.10503808102009.DeleteThis@news.announcetech.com>,
John Higdon <higgy.DeleteThis@kome.com> wrote:

> Do you feel that data traffic should be arbitrarily limited by squeezing
> infrastructure capacity? The anti-car people use this argument against
> building and improving highways, as if cars reproduce and occupy the
> roadways independent of the needs of their owners.


"Attempting to reduce highway congestion by adding more lanes
is exactly like attempting to solve your overweight problems by
buying larger size clothing"

[My son, the traffic engineer and livable community planner.]
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AES

External


Since: Oct 08, 2009
Posts: 2



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <4ace2cb1$0$1628$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS <scharf.steven.RemoveThis@geemail.com> wrote:

> OTOH there is some truth to the
> idea that additional capacity spurs additional suburban housing growth
> that would otherwise not occur because without adequate transportation
> no one would buy the properties.

It's much worse than that: It delays people, and governments, from
facing up to the unpopular but ultimately essential changes in zoning,
community planning, and real-cost pricing, and the unpopular but
ultimately essential investments in community facilities and real rapid
transit, that will ultimately make _everyone's_ lives actually better,
and cheaper.
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John Navas

External


Since: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 752



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 11:18:41 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com>
wrote in <4ace2cb1$0$1628$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>John Higdon wrote:

>> No. Data does not use channels set aside for voice.
>
>But voice is still carried on 3G if you have a 3G handset. Is there any
>way of forcing a 3G handset to drop back from W-CDMA to GSM for voice?

Meaningless and irrelevant -- learn how 3G works.

>> If people need to use more data, then capacity should be increased.
>> Otherwise, why don't we just go back to dialup modems and be done with
>> it?
>
>I know one person that would be thrilled if dial-up came back because he
>knew a lot about it, and he's been unable to keep up with newer
>technologies.

You must be looking in a mirror.

--
Best regards,
John <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?
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John Higdon

External


Since: Oct 08, 2009
Posts: 22



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <siegman-899C8C.12084408102009 DeleteThis @news.stanford.edu>,
AES <siegman DeleteThis @stanford.edu> wrote:

> "Attempting to reduce highway congestion by adding more lanes
> is exactly like attempting to solve your overweight problems by
> buying larger size clothing"

Well, I guess you can stay in your house until be get back to the
"right" size, or you can buy new clothes so you can get to work. We can
have cars sitting in traffic, polluting the air for yet another fifty
years while we *talk* about how there are better alternatives, or we can
fix the immediate problem and at least enjoy a better quality of life.

> [My son, the traffic engineer and livable community planner.]

I prefer to plan my own living arrangements, thank you.

--
John Higdon
+1 408 ANdrews 6-4400
AT&T-Free At Last
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SMS

External


Since: Jan 18, 2006
Posts: 1206



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

AES wrote:
> In article <higgy-460B2F.10503808102009.RemoveThis@news.announcetech.com>,
> John Higdon <higgy.RemoveThis@kome.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you feel that data traffic should be arbitrarily limited by squeezing
>> infrastructure capacity? The anti-car people use this argument against
>> building and improving highways, as if cars reproduce and occupy the
>> roadways independent of the needs of their owners.
>
>
> "Attempting to reduce highway congestion by adding more lanes
> is exactly like attempting to solve your overweight problems by
> buying larger size clothing"

It's actually nothing like it at all.
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John Navas

External


Since: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 752



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:55:50 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven RemoveThis @geemail.com>
wrote in <4ace5187$0$1603$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>AES wrote:
>> In article <higgy-460B2F.10503808102009 RemoveThis @news.announcetech.com>,
>> John Higdon <higgy RemoveThis @kome.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do you feel that data traffic should be arbitrarily limited by squeezing
>>> infrastructure capacity? The anti-car people use this argument against
>>> building and improving highways, as if cars reproduce and occupy the
>>> roadways independent of the needs of their owners.
>>
>> "Attempting to reduce highway congestion by adding more lanes
>> is exactly like attempting to solve your overweight problems by
>> buying larger size clothing"
>
>It's actually nothing like it at all.

On the contrary (as usual) -- unlike wired (fiber) spectrum, wireless
spectrum is finite.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://wireless.navas.us>
John FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
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John Navas

External


Since: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 752



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:53:43 -0700, John Higdon <higgy.TakeThisOut@kome.com> wrote
in <higgy-70ABB8.12534208102009.TakeThisOut@news.announcetech.com>:

>In article <siegman-899C8C.12084408102009.TakeThisOut@news.stanford.edu>,
> AES <siegman.TakeThisOut@stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> "Attempting to reduce highway congestion by adding more lanes
>> is exactly like attempting to solve your overweight problems by
>> buying larger size clothing"
>
>Well, I guess you can stay in your house until be get back to the
>"right" size, or you can buy new clothes so you can get to work. We can
>have cars sitting in traffic, polluting the air for yet another fifty
>years while we *talk* about how there are better alternatives, or we can
>fix the immediate problem and at least enjoy a better quality of life.

Tesla
Hypercar

--
Best regards,
John Navas "We have met the enemy and he is us" -Pogo
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Steve Pope

External


Since: Dec 04, 2005
Posts: 20



(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John Navas <spamfilter1 DeleteThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:

>On the contrary (as usual) -- unlike wired (fiber) spectrum, wireless
>spectrum is finite.

I suppose both are finite, but you can arbitrarily increase the
capacity of a given amount of wireless specturm by going to
smaller and smaller femtocells.

Steve
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John Navas

External


Since: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 752



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiered pricing for mobile data? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:37:23 +0000 (UTC), spope33.RemoveThis@speedymail.org (Steve
Pope) wrote in <halpj3$4fl$1@blue.rahul.net>:

>John Navas <spamfilter1.RemoveThis@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>
>>On the contrary (as usual) -- unlike wired (fiber) spectrum, wireless
>>spectrum is finite.
>
>I suppose both are finite, but you can arbitrarily increase the
>capacity of a given amount of wireless specturm by going to
>smaller and smaller femtocells.

Current technology and the Law of Diminishing Returns quickly make that
impractical. The differences are orders of magnitude. Fiber capacity
is essentially unlimited (for the foreseeable future at least).

--
Best regards,
John <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?
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