styles in word 2007

John McGhie wrote:
<<stuff deleted>>
> From that time on, your Paragraph style is ruined: you can no
> longer depend upon it to produce the correct formatting --
> because sometimes it will apply the Character and the
> Paragraph formatting. Sometimes only the Character
> formatting.
>
> And there is no sure way to discover by looking which is
> which.

John, I have a couple of questions about this:

1) In the formatting palette under the styles section, each style
is tagged with a "style type" indicator (e.g., Pilcrow for
paragraph style, underscore "a" for character style, etc.). I am
assuming that when I have a Linked style named "XYZ" in my
document, I will NOT get BOTH a "XYZ" paragraph and "XYZ"
character style displayed in the styles list (unless perhaps,
they were unlinked?). I assume that it will only show up as a
paragraph style, correct?

2) By "ruined" do you mean that even if I select an entire
paragraph including the Pilcrow paragraph marker and apply a
linked style that I may only get the character style component
applied to it?

Inquiring minds want to know...


--
Jeff Wiseman
to reply, just remove ALLTHESPAM

Hi Jeff:

1) In Word 2007, you will indeed see both the "a" and the ¶, side-by-side,
if you are looking at a "Linked" style -- a¶

In Word 2008, you will see only the pilcrow (¶) whether you are looking at a
linked style or a paragraph style, and whether the style is being used as a
paragraph style or as a character style.

However, Word 2008 is a very "partial" implementation of the Word 2007
model. There is no mention of Linked Styles, in either the user interface
or the Help. They are certainly present in the product (as they would have
to be, to get the XML engine to work).

If you want to see one, take a string of body text and apply Heading 1 to
"some" of it.

2) If you select an entire paragraph including the paragraph mark, and
choose a linked style to apply, you will apply both components.

If you do not select the paragraph mark, you will apply only the Character
style.

If you select a paragraph and a half (or more), you will apply both the
paragraph and the character styles to the entire paragraph of each paragraph
that has any part of the selection in it.

The sad case happens if the user selects the entire paragraph up to the
full-stop, but not including the two spaces at the end of the paragraph.
They will apply the Character style only. And without examining the text
very carefully, you will not be able to detect what's wrong.

Cheers

On 13/12/08 4:04 PM, in article uQP#dzOXJHA.4596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl, "Jeff
Wiseman" <throwawayacct223.TakeThisOut@ALLTHESPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

> John McGhie wrote:
> <<stuff deleted>>
>> From that time on, your Paragraph style is ruined: you can no
>> longer depend upon it to produce the correct formatting --
>> because sometimes it will apply the Character and the
>> Paragraph formatting. Sometimes only the Character
>> formatting.
>>
>> And there is no sure way to discover by looking which is
>> which.
>
> John, I have a couple of questions about this:
>
> 1) In the formatting palette under the styles section, each style
> is tagged with a "style type" indicator (e.g., Pilcrow for
> paragraph style, underscore "a" for character style, etc.). I am
> assuming that when I have a Linked style named "XYZ" in my
> document, I will NOT get BOTH a "XYZ" paragraph and "XYZ"
> character style displayed in the styles list (unless perhaps,
> they were unlinked?). I assume that it will only show up as a
> paragraph style, correct?
>
> 2) By "ruined" do you mean that even if I select an entire
> paragraph including the Pilcrow paragraph marker and apply a
> linked style that I may only get the character style component
> applied to it?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know...
>

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:john@mcghie.name

John McGhie wrote:
> Hi Jeff:
>
> 1) In Word 2007, you will indeed see both the "a" and the ¶,
> side-by-side, if you are looking at a "Linked" style -- a¶
>
> In Word 2008, you will see only the pilcrow (¶) whether you
> are looking at a linked style or a paragraph style, and
> whether the style is being used as a paragraph style or as a
> character style.


This seems to be the case with 2004 as well. Do you know off hand
what the Word 2003 behavior is?


> 2) If you select an entire paragraph including the paragraph
> mark, and choose a linked style to apply, you will apply both
> components.
>
> If you do not select the paragraph mark, you will apply only
> the Character style.
>
> If you select a paragraph and a half (or more), you will apply
> both the paragraph and the character styles to the entire
> paragraph of each paragraph that has any part of the selection
> in it.


Ok. Well when I am working with styles I always use the Normal
View and select paragraphs from the styles side bar. That way I
am sure to get everything that I want prior to applying a style
so it sounds like I can avoid trouble by continuing to do the same.


> The sad case happens if the user selects the entire paragraph
> up to the full-stop, but not including the two spaces at the
> end of the paragraph. They will apply the Character style
> only. And without examining the text very carefully, you will
> not be able to detect what's wrong.


Again, I use the Normal view so that I can see my styles. Are you
indicating that in the above example, the style shown in the side
bar would be given as the paragraph style when only the character
part was applied?


--
Jeff Wiseman
to reply, just remove ALLTHESPAM

Bloody Hell Jeff!!

You're like a dog with a bone I had to go and test that one (because of
course, it's not documented!!).

1) The Style Area in Normal View (Draft View in Word 2008) shows only the
name of the Paragraph style that is applied.

2) If a Linked style is applied to part of the paragraph as a Character
style, the Style Area continues to show the name of the Paragraph style that
is applied, not the Linked style.

3) If a Linked style is applied to the entire paragraph, the style area
shows the name of the Linked style.

4) If a linked style is applied to part of the text, and then the same
linked style (e.g. Heading 1) is applied to the entire paragraph, Word 2008
performs a Boolean Addition of the Character parts of the Linked Style.

That means that if the Linked Style specifies a Bold font face, and you
apply it as a Character style, you will get bold. If you apply it as a
Paragraph style, you will get bold. If you apply the the Paragraph
component over the top of the Character component, you will toggle the bold
an come back to Normal. This is a new Word 2008 bug

Word 2003 does not display Linked Styles in the user interface. If you have
one, then it appears as a pilcrow, the same as a paragraph style. Nor can
you create a style of type Linked.

There: You have found a new bug with which I can embarrass them

Cheers


On 14/12/08 5:29 AM, in article ONPGW1VXJHA.2280.TakeThisOut@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl, "Jeff
Wiseman" <throwawayacct223.TakeThisOut@ALLTHESPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

> John McGhie wrote:
>> Hi Jeff:
>>
>> 1) In Word 2007, you will indeed see both the "a" and the ¶,
>> side-by-side, if you are looking at a "Linked" style -- a¶
>>
>> In Word 2008, you will see only the pilcrow (¶) whether you
>> are looking at a linked style or a paragraph style, and
>> whether the style is being used as a paragraph style or as a
>> character style.
>
>
> This seems to be the case with 2004 as well. Do you know off hand
> what the Word 2003 behavior is?
>
>
>> 2) If you select an entire paragraph including the paragraph
>> mark, and choose a linked style to apply, you will apply both
>> components.
>>
>> If you do not select the paragraph mark, you will apply only
>> the Character style.
>>
>> If you select a paragraph and a half (or more), you will apply
>> both the paragraph and the character styles to the entire
>> paragraph of each paragraph that has any part of the selection
>> in it.
>
>
> Ok. Well when I am working with styles I always use the Normal
> View and select paragraphs from the styles side bar. That way I
> am sure to get everything that I want prior to applying a style
> so it sounds like I can avoid trouble by continuing to do the same.
>
>
>> The sad case happens if the user selects the entire paragraph
>> up to the full-stop, but not including the two spaces at the
>> end of the paragraph. They will apply the Character style
>> only. And without examining the text very carefully, you will
>> not be able to detect what's wrong.
>
>
> Again, I use the Normal view so that I can see my styles. Are you
> indicating that in the above example, the style shown in the side
> bar would be given as the paragraph style when only the character
> part was applied?
>

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:john@mcghie.name

John,

John McGhie wrote:
> Bloody Hell Jeff!!
>
> You're like a dog with a bone I had to go and test that
> one (because of course, it's not documented!!).


Well, I DID say "Do you know off hand" so you didn't HAVE to test
it (although I probably would have if I could and I appreciate
that fact that you did

Thanks for confirming the behaviors for me. Undocumented
behaviors are much more interesting when it comes to MS products.
In fact, I think that most of the product's features fall into
that catagory


> 1) The Style Area in Normal View (Draft View in Word 2008)
> shows only the name of the Paragraph style that is applied.
>
> 2) If a Linked style is applied to part of the paragraph as a
> Character style, the Style Area continues to show the name of
> the Paragraph style that is applied, not the Linked style.
>
> 3) If a Linked style is applied to the entire paragraph, the
> style area shows the name of the Linked style.
>
> 4) If a linked style is applied to part of the text, and then
> the same linked style (e.g. Heading 1) is applied to the
> entire paragraph, Word 2008 performs a Boolean Addition of the
> Character parts of the Linked Style.
>
> That means that if the Linked Style specifies a Bold font
> face, and you apply it as a Character style, you will get
> bold. If you apply it as a Paragraph style, you will get
> bold. If you apply the the Paragraph component over the top
> of the Character component, you will toggle the bold an come
> back to Normal. This is a new Word 2008 bug


Go figure.

Well, if you check again, you may find that the behavior is also
susceptible to the OTHER bug that seems to be prevalent here and
shows up in Office for Mac 2004--if you apply the paragraph link
style to more than half the characters in the paragraph (but not
including the paragraph marker), your boolean toggle effect
doesn't occur because even though the paragraph style in the
Normal view doesn't change to the new paragraph style, it acts as
though the character change from the linked style was global to
the paragraph!

Also, if you place the cursor in the string of restyled
characters, it doesn't show the character style or the linked
style in the style window of the toolbar.

I have noticed that frequently, applying the paragraph style to
the full paragraph a SECOND time seems to correct this, but looks
can be deceiving.


> Word 2003 does not display Linked Styles in the user
> interface. If you have one, then it appears as a pilcrow, the
> same as a paragraph style. Nor can you create a style of type
> Linked.


Ok, that's what I was wondering (off hand, you know...)


> There: You have found a new bug with which I can embarrass
> them


Ah! So it WAS worth your while

(but does anything like this REALLY embarass them??)


--
Jeff Wiseman
to reply, just remove ALLTHESPAM

Hi Jeff:

On 15/12/08 6:23 AM, in article #dQTR4iXJHA.1528@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, "Jeff
Wiseman" <throwawayacct223.RemoveThis@ALLTHESPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

> Well, if you check again, you may find that the behavior is also
> susceptible to the OTHER bug that seems to be prevalent here and
> shows up in Office for Mac 2004--if you apply the paragraph link
> style to more than half the characters in the paragraph (but not
> including the paragraph marker), your boolean toggle effect
> doesn't occur because even though the paragraph style in the
> Normal view doesn't change to the new paragraph style, it acts as
> though the character change from the linked style was global to
> the paragraph!

Eeewwwww....

> Also, if you place the cursor in the string of restyled
> characters, it doesn't show the character style or the linked
> style in the style window of the toolbar.

Eeeeewwwwww.....

> I have noticed that frequently, applying the paragraph style to
> the full paragraph a SECOND time seems to correct this, but looks
> can be deceiving.

Just off the top of my head, I would say you have now found TWO new bugs

> Ah! So it WAS worth your while
>
> (but does anything like this REALLY embarass them??)

It does when I call them on it I would say that these are "Coding Bugs"
as opposed to "Working as Designed" (otherwise known as "Design Bugs").

Design Bugs are not so embarrassing, because they can always blame whoever
wrote the functional specification. Preservation of Deniability is
important in Corporate life.

But these, I suspect, are "Bug Bugs", used throughout the industry by
Software Architects, Program Managers, and Lead Programmers to humiliate the
hapless fuzzy-cheeked coders at staff meetings.

It's the only way us old farts can maintain a semblance of appearance of
relevance

Cheers

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:john@mcghie.name

John McGhie wrote:
> Hi Jeff:
>
> On 15/12/08 6:23 AM, in article #dQTR4iXJHA.1528@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, "Jeff
> Wiseman" <throwawayacct223.RemoveThis@ALLTHESPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, if you check again, you may find that the behavior is also
>>susceptible to the OTHER bug that seems to be prevalent here and
>>shows up in Office for Mac 2004--if you apply the paragraph link
>>style to more than half the characters in the paragraph (but not
>>including the paragraph marker), your boolean toggle effect
>>doesn't occur because even though the paragraph style in the
>>Normal view doesn't change to the new paragraph style, it acts as
>>though the character change from the linked style was global to
>>the paragraph!
>
>
> Eeewwwww....
>
>
>>Also, if you place the cursor in the string of restyled
>>characters, it doesn't show the character style or the linked
>>style in the style window of the toolbar.
>
>
> Eeeeewwwwww.....
>
>
>>I have noticed that frequently, applying the paragraph style to
>>the full paragraph a SECOND time seems to correct this, but looks
>>can be deceiving.
>
>
> Just off the top of my head, I would say you have now found TWO new bugs


This is all directly related to the question and issues I brought
up earlier in the thread "Paragraph selection and Style
application anomalies" that I started back on 22 Nov 2008. These
all appear to be related to the same inconsistent handling of
pargraph and character styles-especially relative to RTF type
formatting.

I would find it rather appalling if these were actually "New"
bugs since I have been running into them constantly at least
since Word 2003 and Mac office 2004.

When a person finally decides to try and use styles properly,
these inconsistancies are so fundamental to the issue of
formatting in styles that they tend to completely undermine any
attempts to use both character and paragraph formatting together.
I really don't care whether a paragraph style will blow away
overriding character styles or not when they are applied--so long
as it is CONSISTENT in the behavior so that automations can be
developed and newbies can be tutored in the use of styles in a
time frame that doesn't have to be described in terms of
"generations"!

Oh Santa, please give me a tool that does what I tell it to do
and DOESN'T assume that I'm a stark, raving idiot (regardless of
what others may have said) by changing everything I've done into
something that it presumes I was trying to do. And if I must have
such a tool, at least give me the ability to turn off these
totally incorrect and presumptuous algorithms so it doesn't
continue to INTERFERE with my work flow.

I'll be a good boy--honest!


--
Jeff Wiseman
to reply, just remove ALLTHESPAM

Dear Santa:

Define "good"

Hi Jeff:

Talk to the hand, buddy We've been screaming the same things at
Microsoft for about five years now.

They're not going to change it.

There's right on both sides here. "Generation Y" simply doesn't have the
attention-span to "learn" to use Software -- any software.

The concept of making careful design decisions now, otherwise they will hurt
you badly in pre-press in 18 months time when the book is going to the
publisher, is so far beyond their understanding that you'll only get a blank
stare. They're not GOING to learn this, and they WILL ignore you.

Remember when we used to say "It takes seven years to make a good writer.
Ten, if they have a University Degree!"? Now it takes an extra five: you
have to wait for them to be passed over for promotion -- twice -- before
they're willing to investigate whether their lack of career progress might
have just a tiny bit to do with themselves

This is the market that's out there now. These are the people who are
buying software now. These are the people Microsoft is designing for.

It just may be that the publication professionals amongst us might have to
find another tool to use. From Microsoft's point of view, they would be
delighted if that happens. We represent less than one per cent of their
market, and we do around 80 per cent of the complaining (!!). And we're
notorious tightwads -- "paying extra" is as likely to win favours with us as
"learning to work properly" is to Gen Y

Have a great holiday, mate.

Cheers


On 17/12/08 4:28 PM, in article #wJmdhAYJHA.5064@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, "Jeff
Wiseman" <throwawayacct223.TakeThisOut@ALLTHESPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

> John McGhie wrote:
>> Hi Jeff:
>>
>> On 15/12/08 6:23 AM, in article #dQTR4iXJHA.1528@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, "Jeff
>> Wiseman" <throwawayacct223.TakeThisOut@ALLTHESPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Well, if you check again, you may find that the behavior is also
>>> susceptible to the OTHER bug that seems to be prevalent here and
>>> shows up in Office for Mac 2004--if you apply the paragraph link
>>> style to more than half the characters in the paragraph (but not
>>> including the paragraph marker), your boolean toggle effect
>>> doesn't occur because even though the paragraph style in the
>>> Normal view doesn't change to the new paragraph style, it acts as
>>> though the character change from the linked style was global to
>>> the paragraph!
>>
>>
>> Eeewwwww....
>>
>>
>>> Also, if you place the cursor in the string of restyled
>>> characters, it doesn't show the character style or the linked
>>> style in the style window of the toolbar.
>>
>>
>> Eeeeewwwwww.....
>>
>>
>>> I have noticed that frequently, applying the paragraph style to
>>> the full paragraph a SECOND time seems to correct this, but looks
>>> can be deceiving.
>>
>>
>> Just off the top of my head, I would say you have now found TWO new bugs
>
>
> This is all directly related to the question and issues I brought
> up earlier in the thread "Paragraph selection and Style
> application anomalies" that I started back on 22 Nov 2008. These
> all appear to be related to the same inconsistent handling of
> pargraph and character styles-especially relative to RTF type
> formatting.
>
> I would find it rather appalling if these were actually "New"
> bugs since I have been running into them constantly at least
> since Word 2003 and Mac office 2004.
>
> When a person finally decides to try and use styles properly,
> these inconsistancies are so fundamental to the issue of
> formatting in styles that they tend to completely undermine any
> attempts to use both character and paragraph formatting together.
> I really don't care whether a paragraph style will blow away
> overriding character styles or not when they are applied--so long
> as it is CONSISTENT in the behavior so that automations can be
> developed and newbies can be tutored in the use of styles in a
> time frame that doesn't have to be described in terms of
> "generations"!
>
> Oh Santa, please give me a tool that does what I tell it to do
> and DOESN'T assume that I'm a stark, raving idiot (regardless of
> what others may have said) by changing everything I've done into
> something that it presumes I was trying to do. And if I must have
> such a tool, at least give me the ability to turn off these
> totally incorrect and presumptuous algorithms so it doesn't
> continue to INTERFERE with my work flow.
>
> I'll be a good boy--honest!
>

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:john@mcghie.name

John McGhie wrote:
> Dear Santa:
>
> Define "good"


I'm not sure, but I believe it has something to do with eating
all the liver and onions put on my plate...


I guess I shouldn't be so negative about this though. The good
will I get at work and job security that I have simply because I
know how to work around most of the screwy functions of Word is
GREATLY appreciated!


> Have a great holiday, mate.


Sure will. Hope all of our fellow Word-ites do too!


--
Jeff Wiseman
to reply, just remove ALLTHESPAM