Please, help me to choose between OpenOffice or NeoOffice ..

On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:23:32 -0400, Marc Heusser wrote
(in article <marc.heusser-6B2776.08230223092009 RemoveThis @news.uzh.ch>):

> In article <h9booa013lq RemoveThis @news2.newsguy.com>,
> J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to RemoveThis @but.see.sig> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:12:08 -0400, Marc Heusser wrote
>> (in article <marc.heusser-E33FF4.01113823092009 RemoveThis @news.uzh.ch>):
>>
>>> In article <h9adu6030ce RemoveThis @news2.newsguy.com>,
>>> J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to RemoveThis @but.see.sig> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Numbers is Not Ready For Prime Time(tm).
>>>
>>> In this case Excel neither - doing more than simple math on a
>>> spreadsheet is annoying at best.
>>
>> Excel does rather more than simple math. And does it quickly, efficiently,
>> and displays and prints the results accurately. Which is more than Numbers
>> can do. And this is not merely my opinion, it is the opinion of a great
>> many
>> people who use spreadsheets on a daily basis. I quoted several of them
>> earlier.
>
> I know the argument - but the tools you use tend shape your thinking.
> Excel does not even print spreadsheets easily - eg on one page.

Incorrect. I can think of two simple ways to get a multi-page Excel
spreadsheet to print on one page. There's Scaling, on the Page Setup dialog,
and Fit To, also on the Page Setup dialog. I'd say that you've never actually
printed anything from Excel.

> Debugging complex Excel sheets is a nightmare.

In what way? I've been using spreadsheets since Visicalc, and Excel gives
considerably less trouble than any app that I've tried. This includes but is
not limited to Visicalc, Supercalc, Lotus 1-2-3, and Quatro. I'd ask you to
show what you mean, but given that you've obviously never printed anything
from Excel, I suspect that you've never actually tried to do a serious
calculation in Excel either.

> Errors slip all too
> easily.

Actually... not.

> Graphics just aren't publication quality.

This would be your opinion... unshared by a rather considerable number of
people who have published them.

> Etc etc.

You haven't actually provided even one example yet.

> Some shortcomings have persisted since version 1.0 on Mac.

Name 'em.

>
> I have not intention to argue against people who love Excel (or for that
> matter OpenOffice Calc, which is a more reliable free alternative).

That's incorrect, too.

> Having have to use MS Office for smaller and bigger projects I have just
> painfully experienced all its shortcomings, bugs, limitations and
> idiosyncrasies, including Excel's. And it took long to get MS to even
> acknowledge (severe) bugs we had found, so we could reliably code around
> them.

If your reporting of the 'bugs' to Microsoft was of a level equivalent to
your post here, I suspect that I, too, would take some time to acknowledge
nonexistent problems.

>
> In comparison Numbers is just a bliss,

Bullshit. You have totally failed to address the failings laid out in my post
of 22 Sept. Let me repeat them:

Among the problems that Numbers has are:

1 print formatting. Numbers will not do what I consider to be a simple task:
print a simple selection. See further
<http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1414956>, among other
places, for more.

2 certain functions, including some that I use quite often, are simply not
present in Numbers. See further
<http://curmi.com/blog/2007/08/26/functions-in-excel-and-numbers/>, among
other places, for more. Note that that blog dates from 2007 and this has
_still_ not be fixed.

3 missing features, including database abilities, charting, and pivot tables.

See further
<http://www.appleinsider.com/print/07/11/15/road_to_mac_office_2008_excel_08_v
s_numbers_1_0.html> for more.

You will notice that _I_ give examples.

> as is Mathematica etc.
>
> If I have to absolutely, I use OpenOffice instead of NeoOffice (and
> Excel of course) today.

But not, I notice, Numbers. Because of its failings.

>
> HTH
>
> Marc
>
>



--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

Matthew Lybanon <lybanon DeleteThis @earthlink.net> writes:

> Numbers has a nice user interface, and is adequate for many uses. But
> it has its limitations.

Numbers is actually less of a spreadsheet and more of a table
presentation program with spreadsheet functions thrown in. If you have
ever tried to quickly throw together a nicely layed out set of pages
with numerical data, text and images in Excel you will *love* Numbers.
Excel is good at processing stuff but as soon as you want to have a
convincing output it just leaves you out in the cold. You have to fight
it to produce anything else than page-filling rows and columns of data.

And this fits well together with the other iWork apps. Pages is not much
of a word processor compared to MS Word, but a really nice DTP app for
the poor. If you're more concerned with the output (printed pages or PDF
files) than with the processing of data both Numbers and Pages are much
better than Excel and Word. MS Office has left that particular niche
very much alone. If you just care for the processing of data Numbers is
rather poor compared to Excel, though.

I think it clearly shows that Numbers (and Pages) was written by the
same team that did Keynote. Presentation is key here. I also think that
Apple was quite wise to aim at that niche. Many casual users,
freelancers and office staff don't need all the features of MS Office
but desperately need nicely printed pages generated with minimal effort.


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

In article <1j6exmt.txvq2n106sxzyN%h.sainct@laposte.net.invalid>,
h.sainct.DeleteThis@laposte.net.invalid (Frédérique & Hervé Sainct) wrote:
> Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA.DeleteThis@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > Please, help me to choose between the last versions of OpenOffice or
> > NeoOffice to install in a new Mac.
>
> I'd say NO does more for me, but its upgrade process is a bit of a
> bother

Oh? NeoO auto-checks for updates. If one's available I click 'Download',
then quit NeoO, install the update, and restart NeoO. Seems fairly easy
to me.

In article <rg5fb51h2h0ngr3g927orncdq34eu4581c DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA DeleteThis @attglobal.net> wrote:

> Please, help me to choose between the last versions of OpenOffice or
> NeoOffice to install in a new Mac.

OOo3 Aqua is an excellent app. IF you're using a Mac, NeoO3 is even
better because it's more 'Mac-ified', has extra Mac features OOo3
doesn't have, and is a bit more stable. Although the OOo team developed
the Aqua version for the Mac, it still seems that support for Mac users
is an afterthought. NeoO is specifically for Mac users.

This has all been discussed here before. Google is your friend:
<http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&>

> I like to know your opinions in terms of Ms-Office compatibility, ease
> of use, features, stability, etc.

NeoO/OOo will both read and write M$-Orifice formats. As with ANY file
format translations, they sometimes get garbled. Pick one format and
stay with it, i.e. don't keep converting back and forth from M$ to/from
OpenDocument format.

In article <rg5fb51h2h0ngr3g927orncdq34eu4581c.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA.TakeThisOut@attglobal.net> wrote:

> Dear friends:
>
> Please, help me to choose between the last versions of OpenOffice or
> NeoOffice to install in a new Mac.
>
> I like to know your opinions in terms of Ms-Office compatibility, ease
> of use, features, stability, etc.

I got tired of trying to keep both up-to-date and decided OO was easier.
There is also an active group of forums on gmane.comp.openoffice.*.

I am not an Office aficionado, so I can't comment on everything or even
a lot. However, so far I have found one big plus for me which is that I
can do semi-log charts on part of a cycle, for example, 15-40 instead of
10-100. OTOH, OO does not have the Tools->Data Analysis capabilities
Excel has, so I use Excel for that. However, the forum indicates it is
in the works and may be forthcoming at some point.

Excel 2004 for Mac does not provide the ability to extract data from web
pages that Windows has. You have to get the whole page and the data you
want may shift around in the page, making it pretty much impossible to
use it for the kind of data acquisition we do in Windows. I do it
manually in Safari, and I have not tried OO for this, but it could be a
consideration.

Another thing I noticed which is not critical for me is that Office 2004
does not do PowerPoint right, at least on my computer, but OO does!!

The Word part has done everything I ever asked Word to do, but I haven't
asked it to do a lot.

>
> Does the last version of OpenOffice need X11 to run as before?

I am not positive, but I think not.

--
Robert B. Peirce, Venetia, PA 724-941-6883
bob AT peirce-family.com [Mac]
rbp AT cooksonpeirce.com [Office]

In article <bob-AFAA2C.15152428092009 DeleteThis @nntp.aioe.org>,
Robert Peirce <bob DeleteThis @peirce-family.com.invalid> wrote:

> I got tired of trying to keep both up-to-date and decided OO was easier.
> There is also an active group of forums on gmane.comp.openoffice.*.

Having said that, I read some later entries that NeoOffice is more
Mac-like than OO, so I have decided to take another look at it. From
the download page it appears NO is taken from OO and lacks only OS X
Universal Access Support, which I don't use. OTOH, it claims to support
several Mac features not offered in OO. We'll see.

Bottom line, you may want to try both. They keep evolving and it
appears neither is "the best" for long.

--
Robert B. Peirce, Venetia, PA 724-941-6883
bob AT peirce-family.com [Mac]
rbp AT cooksonpeirce.com [Office]

In article <fmoore-5778E0.12171028092009 DeleteThis @feeder.eternal-september.org>,
Fred Moore <fmoore DeleteThis @gcfn.org> wrote:

> In article <1j6exmt.txvq2n106sxzyN%h.sainct@laposte.net.invalid>,
> h.sainct DeleteThis @laposte.net.invalid (Frédérique & Hervé Sainct) wrote:
> > Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA DeleteThis @attglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Please, help me to choose between the last versions of OpenOffice or
> > > NeoOffice to install in a new Mac.
> >
> > I'd say NO does more for me, but its upgrade process is a bit of a
> > bother
>
> Oh? NeoO auto-checks for updates. If one's available I click 'Download',
> then quit NeoO, install the update, and restart NeoO. Seems fairly easy
> to me.

You mean, every 3 seconds? I stopped years back and just use the thing
(only rarely updating). Its a clunky old bus, reliable enough, glad I
don't need it much though.

--
dorayme

In article <doraymeRidThis-7FA959.07342029092009.RemoveThis@news.albasani.net>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis.RemoveThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> In article <fmoore-5778E0.12171028092009.RemoveThis@feeder.eternal-september.org>,
> Fred Moore <fmoore.RemoveThis@gcfn.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <1j6exmt.txvq2n106sxzyN%h.sainct@laposte.net.invalid>,
> > h.sainct.RemoveThis@laposte.net.invalid (Frédérique & Hervé Sainct) wrote:
> > > Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA.RemoveThis@attglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Please, help me to choose between the last versions of OpenOffice or
> > > > NeoOffice to install in a new Mac.
> > >
> > > I'd say NO does more for me, but its upgrade process is a bit of a
> > > bother
> >
> > Oh? NeoO auto-checks for updates. If one's available I click 'Download',
> > then quit NeoO, install the update, and restart NeoO. Seems fairly easy
> > to me.
>
> You mean, every 3 seconds? I stopped years back and just use the thing
> (only rarely updating). Its a clunky old bus, reliable enough, glad I
> don't need it much though.

Um, sorry, dorayme, ya lost me. What's happening every 3 seconds? The
developers do post regular updates as necessary. I find NeoO far less
'clunky' than M$ Orifice and much more reliable (not to mention less
expensive). NeoO3 is faster than some of its earlier versions, if you're
referring to that; but then Orifice is no speed demon.

In article <bob-CA5FB1.15240628092009 DeleteThis @nntp.aioe.org>,
Robert Peirce <bob DeleteThis @peirce-family.com.invalid> wrote:

> In article <bob-AFAA2C.15152428092009 DeleteThis @nntp.aioe.org>,
> Robert Peirce <bob DeleteThis @peirce-family.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > I got tired of trying to keep both up-to-date and decided OO was easier.
> > There is also an active group of forums on gmane.comp.openoffice.*.
>
> Having said that, I read some later entries that NeoOffice is more
> Mac-like than OO, so I have decided to take another look at it. From
> the download page it appears NO is taken from OO and lacks only OS X
> Universal Access Support, which I don't use. OTOH, it claims to support
> several Mac features not offered in OO. We'll see.
>
> Bottom line, you may want to try both. They keep evolving and it
> appears neither is "the best" for long.

And you can have both NeoO and OOo installed at the same time. The only
caution is that you have to tell your Mac which app to use as the
default for opening OpenDocument-format files. (You do that in a get
info window.)

Since there are likely people who are reading this who have never used
NeoO/OOo but are considering trying one of them, I'm posting a resource
reference I compiled for some of my clients to help them get the most
out of these alternative to The Dark Side. The NeoO info is listed
first, then the OOo links. I think the links are all current (but would
appreciate any updating), and the v2 info mostly applies to v3.

**
The following is a concise list of the most useful support/help
documents for NeoOffice (NeoO), the Mac-ified version OpenOffice.org
(OOo), the free replacement for Micro$oft Office. They are listed, more
or less, in order of importance:

-> NeoOffice.org <http://www.neooffice.org/>
The official main site for the NeoO project.

-> NeoOffice Downloads <http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/download.php>
Download the latest version of the NeoOffice application from here.

-> NeoOffice Patch Download
<http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/patch.php>
After you install the latest version, be sure to install the latest
patch from this site.

-> NeoOffice FAQ <http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/faq.php>
Frequently Asked basic Questions about NeoO.

-> NeoOffice (Trinity BBS) <http://trinity.neooffice.org/>
This site posts the latest news about NeoO.

-> NeoOffice Support Forums, part of the Trinity NeoOffice BBS
<http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7>
This site hosts the NeoO support forums--very welcoming users with
helpful advice.

-> Although NeoO has detailed help available from within the app, you
can also download a very useful pdf user guide here:
<http://userguide.neooffice.org/NeoOffice_User_Guide.pdf>

This document is a very large (~17MB) file, so you'll have to wait
several seconds for it to display in your browser, or you can just
control-click (right-click) on the link and select 'Download Linked
File'.

If you have just started using NeoO or are seriously contemplating it,
this
documentation is an excellent introduction to the software. For those
especially looking for a word processor, I suggest reading Chapter 2:
Working with NeoOffice and Chapter 3: Managing Text Documents with
Writer [the word processing module].

-> An advanced guide with topics of special interest for experienced
users can be downloaded here, User Guide Volume 2:
<http://userguide.neooffice.org/NeoOffice_User_Guide_Volume_2.pdf>

-> NeoWiki-Main Page <http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/Main_Page>
The NeoWiki is the Wikipedia-like reference for NeoOffice, an excellent
reference.

-> NeoWiki-NeoOffice Support
<http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Support>
The getting started basics.

-> NeoWiki-NeoOffice File Formats
<http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_File_Formats>
What file formats can NeoO read and write and otherwise support?

-> NeoWiki-NeoOffice Tips and Hints
<http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Tips_and_Hints>

-> NeoWiki-Troubleshooting Tips
<http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/Troubleshooting_Tips>

-> NeoWiki-Using Clipart
<http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/Using_Clipart>

-> Because NeoO is built on OOo, most of the resources--help, tips,
forums, and templates--are also relevant to NeoO. If you can't find the
answer by searching on the NeoO forum, try searching the OOo forum, in
the appropriate group. Just remember when an OOo user mentions a
keyboard command as control-<some key> (i.e. hold down the control key
at the same time you press the specified key), you should read it as
command-<that key> for NeoO. A bonus from NeoO's OOo heritage is that
OOo templates and clipart are immediately and directly usable in NeoO
without any translation.

-> OOo Most Frequently Asked Questions
<http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/mostfaqs.html>

-> OOo User FAQs
<http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/FAQ>
Detailed FAQs about all the major parts of OOo.

-> OpenOffice.org Forum List <http://www.oooforum.org/>
The gateway to the OOo forums for each of the app's modules.

-> OOExtras-templates & samples <http://ooextras.sourceforge.net/>

-> Openoffice.org Label Templates
<http://www.worldlabel.com/Pages/openoffice-template.htm>

-> OpenOffice.org Writer 2.0 In Pictures: Writer Basics
<http://inpics.net/tutorials/writer2/basics.html>

-> OOo Writer FAQs
<http://documentation.openoffice.org/faqs/word_processing/index.html>

-> OOo Off The Wall articles
<http://oooauthors.org/en/authors/userguide2/resources/ooo_off_the_wall>
Numerous articles about real-world questions and situation related to
OOo.
*****

This message is not archived

In article <fmoore-A8052C.12481730092009 DeleteThis @feeder.eternal-september.org>,
Fred Moore <fmoore DeleteThis @gcfn.org> wrote:

> I also find that there
> are quick and easy alternatives to the Big Guys (TextEdit is pretty good
> for lots of stuff) which keeps me from using NeoO as much as I did Word
> 5.1a. I end up forgetting some of what I learned in between sessions.

Me too. I like the idea of small special purpose software. The trend to
be everything to everyone is a road to hell.

--
dorayme

In article <fmoore-A8052C.12481730092009.TakeThisOut@feeder.eternal-september.org>,
Fred Moore <fmoore.TakeThisOut@gcfn.org> wrote:

> Yeh, tactical error hiring the parrot. A wombat would have been far
> superior and more cooperative. Still, they've done better than the
> priest, rabbi, and traveling salesman M$ employed.

Many years ago I had to use a "simple" reporting tool, whose mascot was
a Wombat. If you were lucky enough to have a graphics screen (which I
didn't) they provided an image of one. Many liked the tool. I didn't.

<http://www.sture.ch/node/69>

I recently found a definition for WOMBAT in an acronyms dictionary:

WOMBAT - Waste Of Money, Brains and Time.

which did have me wondering if this is why a Wombat became the mascot
for this software

--
Paul Sture