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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:57 am
Post subject: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through
Archived from groups: comp>sys>mac>apps, others (more info?)
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Greetings,
My system is a MacBook running OS X 10.4.10 (Tiger).
I'm running the output of a Technics SL-B200 turntable into the line
input of my Mac. I have a set of computer speakers attached to the
headphone output.
I then open Sound Studio, go into preferences, set the input to "line-
in input," set the output to "built-in output" and check off "play-
through in to out."
Everything works correctly but I'm getting this horrible squealing/
whistle through my speakers even when the needle isn't contacting the
record. It's not terribly loud but it's certainly loud enough to make
the music unlistenable.
Here's a quick recording of the sound (first with the needle to the
record and then without):
http://www.pho7o.com/music/whistle.mp3
I figure that since my input is "line-in" and not "built in mic," the
speakers shouldn't be causing any feedback since the line-in can't
pick up anything other than a line connection. Perhaps this is an
incorrect assumption.
Then I disconnected both the external speakers AND the line-input
(turntable) and the squealing persists!
I've also tried doing this with Audio Hijack Pro with the same results
so I assume it's not an application bug.
What the heck am I doing wrong?
Thanks much in advance,
Jason |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:57 am
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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| I suspected a preamp might be needed but was hoping the sound card amp
could perform this duty. No big deal since they're pretty cheap. But
thanks for the assist so I can stop beating my head vs. the wall
thinking it's a settings issue.
Jason
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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bodhiSoma <bodhisoma.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm running the output of a Technics SL-B200 turntable into the line
>input of my Mac. I have a set of computer speakers attached to the
>headphone output.
This is a bad thing, because what comes out of the Technics is not a
line output. It requires a phono preamp to come up to line level.
>Everything works correctly but I'm getting this horrible squealing/
>whistle through my speakers even when the needle isn't contacting the
>record. It's not terribly loud but it's certainly loud enough to make
>the music unlistenable.
This is typical of cheap soundcards... and it's a HUGE amount worse, because
you probably have the gain cranked way up in order to make this work at all.
>What the heck am I doing wrong?
Get a phono preamp. It will sound MUCH better. Not only will the noise
floor be more reasonable (because you can drop the gain of the interface)
but it won't have the horrible screechy highs.
Do note that the arms on the cheap Technics tables ring like hell, so you
are going to get a lot more surface noise than you would from a better
damped arm. But that's an issue for later.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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External
Since: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 804
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Michelle Steiner <michelle.TakeThisOut@michelle.org> wrote:
>In article <g8hp4t$msf$1@panix2.panix.com>,
> kludge.TakeThisOut@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> >What the heck am I doing wrong?
>>
>> Get a phono preamp. It will sound MUCH better. Not only will the
>> noise floor be more reasonable (because you can drop the gain of the
>> interface) but it won't have the horrible screechy highs.
>
>But he gets that whine even with the turntable disconnected, he said. I
>was going to suggest the same thing you did, but when I read that the
>whine is still there with the turntable disconnected, I thought the
>problem lay elsewhere.
He gets the whine because he has a cheap built-in sound interface with the
gain turned WAY up. Life is like that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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External
Since: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 804
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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This message is not archived |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michelle Steiner" wrote ...
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> He gets the whine because he has a cheap built-in sound interface with
>> the
>> gain turned WAY up. Life is like that.
>
> Why do you say that the sound interface of the MacBook is a cheap
> interface?
ALL built-in sound interfaces are CHEAP. By definition.
If any of them cost more than $2-3 I would eat my hat.
And it is not only the cost of the parts that is cheap, either. |
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External
Since: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 804
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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bodhiSoma <bodhisoma RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>I suspected a preamp might be needed but was hoping the sound card amp
>could perform this duty. No big deal since they're pretty cheap. But
>thanks for the assist so I can stop beating my head vs. the wall
>thinking it's a settings issue.
The preamp not ONLY adds a whopping 40 to 60 dB of gain, but it also has
equalization built into it which mirrors the RIAA emphasis equalization
that the record is cut with. You MUST have the proper de-emphasis in
the preamp or the playback will be so shrill as to be unlistenable. On
top of this, typical moving magnet phono cartridges are very sensitive
to loading, and they MUST see the rated 47k load or they will not be
properly damped.
Spend a hundred bucks on a cheap phono preamp and be done with it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Michelle Steiner <michelle RemoveThis @michelle.org> wrote:
>In article <g8hq7k$bfe$1@panix2.panix.com>,
> kludge RemoveThis @panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> He gets the whine because he has a cheap built-in sound interface with the
>> gain turned WAY up. Life is like that.
>
>Why do you say that the sound interface of the MacBook is a cheap
>interface?
Because it is. You don't cram a bunch of analogue electronics into a
tiny box full of noisy digital stuff and get good performance, and you
certainly don't do it for under $2 in parts. There is a reason why typical
studio A/D converters cost more than the complete MacBook, and it's not
entirely due to smaller production runs.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michelle Steiner" <michelle DeleteThis @michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-2B67C0.14515220082008@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <6h3douFi2sf8U1 DeleteThis @mid.individual.net>,
> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley DeleteThis @xp7rt.net> wrote:
>
>> >> He gets the whine because he has a cheap built-in sound interface
>> >> with the gain turned WAY up. Life is like that.
>> >
>> > Why do you say that the sound interface of the MacBook is a cheap
>> > interface?
>>
>> ALL built-in sound interfaces are CHEAP. By definition.
>
> You're making an assumption; that's all.
>
It is a correct assumption. Scott, Lawrence, and Richard said as much. To
elaborate, everything sits on one board, with DC-DC converters in close
proximity. Part of the construction of a good preamp is enough separation
and enough metal to keep things separate. This is simply not possible in a
laptop. Space is at a premium. Since the noise floor is limited by the
cramped space, there's no incentive to put in good parts.
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511 |
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External
Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 8/20/08 1:55 PM, in article
michelle-73CE8F.11554720082008 RemoveThis @news.west.cox.net, "Michelle Steiner"
<michelle RemoveThis @michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <g8hp4t$msf$1@panix2.panix.com>,
> kludge RemoveThis @panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>> What the heck am I doing wrong?
>>
>> Get a phono preamp. It will sound MUCH better. Not only will the
>> noise floor be more reasonable (because you can drop the gain of the
>> interface) but it won't have the horrible screechy highs.
>
> But he gets that whine even with the turntable disconnected, he said. I
> was going to suggest the same thing you did, but when I read that the
> whine is still there with the turntable disconnected, I thought the
> problem lay elsewhere.
Ground the turntable directly to the receptacle at the wall? Might work. |
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External
Since: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 466
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <C4D22A1F.EE78%ghost_topper@hotmail.com>,
George Kerby <ghost_topper.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/20/08 1:55 PM, in article
> michelle-73CE8F.11554720082008.TakeThisOut@news.west.cox.net, "Michelle Steiner"
> <michelle.TakeThisOut@michelle.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <g8hp4t$msf$1@panix2.panix.com>,
> > kludge.TakeThisOut@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >
> >>> What the heck am I doing wrong?
> >>
> >> Get a phono preamp. It will sound MUCH better. Not only will the
> >> noise floor be more reasonable (because you can drop the gain of the
> >> interface) but it won't have the horrible screechy highs.
> >
> > But he gets that whine even with the turntable disconnected, he said. I
> > was going to suggest the same thing you did, but when I read that the
> > whine is still there with the turntable disconnected, I thought the
> > problem lay elsewhere.
>
> Ground the turntable directly to the receptacle at the wall? Might work.
Right, but it must be an earth ground. : D
--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than to me, as
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.
JR |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:52:25 -0700, Michelle Steiner
<michelle DeleteThis @michelle.org> wrote:
>> He gets the whine because he has a cheap built-in sound interface with the
>> gain turned WAY up. Life is like that.
>
>Why do you say that the sound interface of the MacBook is a cheap
>interface?
Well, the circuitry for the on-board audio components probably only
cost pennies. But that's hardly the point. He's feeding a socket
marked "Line In" with a signal that wants to go into one marked
"Phono". Remember your old hi-fi amplifier? You didn't plug the
record deck into "Line In" or "Tape In". The extra components behind
the one called "Phono" equally only cost pennies, but they were very
necessary! |
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External
Since: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 804
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Whistle When Using Sound Card as Pass-Through [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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