Precision color calibration and LCD displays

In article <jollyroger-F51754.18420011082008.TakeThisOut@news.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger.TakeThisOut@pobox.com> wrote:

> In article <isw-D9419D.09491311082008.TakeThisOut@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> isw <isw.TakeThisOut@witzend.com> wrote:
>
> > Trying to do a precision color calibration on a flat panel display, I
> > cannot get the "gray square with the oval in it" anywhere near dark
> > enough. I've calibrated plenty of CRTs, and I realize that there is a
> > basic difference between the way a CRT and an LCD work (one produces
> > light, the other merely valves it), but still, is there any way to get a
> > decent calibration on the flat ones? Adjusting brightness and contrast
> > on the monitor is completely ineffective.
>
> Completely ineffective - as in it changes *nothing* at all? If so, it
> seems something's wrong with that LCD display.

If so, it's two of them -- different sizes, different makers. On both,
twiddling the monitor contrast and brightness makes all of the parts of
the circle in a square get brighter or dimmer together, but doesn't do
anything towards making the right side of the square as dark as the left
side.

My usual setup is a MacBook with a large external CRT in a two-screen
setup. Interestingly, when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on
the CRT has that adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not.

Isaac

In article <isw-8F2DAD.22231611082008 DeleteThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
isw <isw DeleteThis @witzend.com> wrote:

> In article <jollyroger-F51754.18420011082008 DeleteThis @news.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger DeleteThis @pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <isw-D9419D.09491311082008 DeleteThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > isw <isw DeleteThis @witzend.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Trying to do a precision color calibration on a flat panel display, I
> > > cannot get the "gray square with the oval in it" anywhere near dark
> > > enough. I've calibrated plenty of CRTs, and I realize that there is a
> > > basic difference between the way a CRT and an LCD work (one produces
> > > light, the other merely valves it), but still, is there any way to get a
> > > decent calibration on the flat ones? Adjusting brightness and contrast
> > > on the monitor is completely ineffective.
> >
> > Completely ineffective - as in it changes *nothing* at all? If so, it
> > seems something's wrong with that LCD display.
>
> If so, it's two of them -- different sizes, different makers. On both,
> twiddling the monitor contrast and brightness makes all of the parts of
> the circle in a square get brighter or dimmer together, but doesn't do
> anything towards making the right side of the square as dark as the left
> side.

I wouldn't call that "completely inneffective". The monitor is getting
darker - just not as dark as you (or Apple) would like. LCD
manufacturers are seemingly on a quest to see who can make the brightest
monitor. I don't think they care as much for color calibration as "how
bright can we make this sucker".

> My usual setup is a MacBook with a large external CRT in a two-screen
> setup. Interestingly, when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on
> the CRT has that adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not.

That's strange. I've yet to encounter an LCD that didn't allow
calibration. Then again LCDs aren't exactly what you look for when
you're truly interested in doing wuality color work, are they? ; )

--
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JR

In article <jollyroger-811425.08463912082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:

> In article <isw-8F2DAD.22231611082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <jollyroger-F51754.18420011082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <isw-D9419D.09491311082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > > isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Trying to do a precision color calibration on a flat panel display, I
> > > > cannot get the "gray square with the oval in it" anywhere near dark
> > > > enough. I've calibrated plenty of CRTs, and I realize that there is a
> > > > basic difference between the way a CRT and an LCD work (one produces
> > > > light, the other merely valves it), but still, is there any way to get
> > > > a
> > > > decent calibration on the flat ones? Adjusting brightness and contrast
> > > > on the monitor is completely ineffective.
> > >
> > > Completely ineffective - as in it changes *nothing* at all? If so, it
> > > seems something's wrong with that LCD display.
> >
> > If so, it's two of them -- different sizes, different makers. On both,
> > twiddling the monitor contrast and brightness makes all of the parts of
> > the circle in a square get brighter or dimmer together, but doesn't do
> > anything towards making the right side of the square as dark as the left
> > side.
>
> I wouldn't call that "completely inneffective". The monitor is getting
> darker - just not as dark as you (or Apple) would like.

But just "getting darker" is *not* what's supposed to happen.

What's *supposed to happen* is that the right side of the square darkens
until it matches the left side, while the left side stays where it was
(at totally dark). On a CRT, that's what happens. On an LCD (at least,
the two I have), *both* sides just get proportionally darker, and the
right side never matches the left. And never gets to absolute black.

This is so because there is a fundamental difference between how CRTs
and LCDs modulate intensity -- CRTs make more or less light, depending
on what's called for, while LCDs start with all the light they'll ever
need, and just "valve" it down to lower levels when appropriate. While
you can turn down intensity all the way o zero, with "valves", there's
always the possibility of leakage (the valve cannot shut off
*completely*, and that's exactly what happens.

> > My usual setup is a MacBook with a large external CRT in a two-screen
> > setup. Interestingly, when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on
> > the CRT has that adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not.
>
> That's strange. I've yet to encounter an LCD that didn't allow
> calibration.

Have you been able to *properly* adjust the monitors using that circle
and square?

>Then again LCDs aren't exactly what you look for when
> you're truly interested in doing wuality color work, are they? ; )

Probably not, but the best book I have ever seen on photo editing
claimed (and showed) that not only do you not need a *calibrated*
monitor, your don't even need a *color* monitor to do exceptional work.

Isaac

In article <isw-36924E.20403512082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:

> In article <jollyroger-811425.08463912082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <isw-8F2DAD.22231611082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <jollyroger-F51754.18420011082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
> > > Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <isw-D9419D.09491311082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > > > isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Trying to do a precision color calibration on a flat panel display, I
> > > > > cannot get the "gray square with the oval in it" anywhere near dark
> > > > > enough. I've calibrated plenty of CRTs, and I realize that there is a
> > > > > basic difference between the way a CRT and an LCD work (one produces
> > > > > light, the other merely valves it), but still, is there any way to
> > > > > get
> > > > > a
> > > > > decent calibration on the flat ones? Adjusting brightness and
> > > > > contrast
> > > > > on the monitor is completely ineffective.
> > > >
> > > > Completely ineffective - as in it changes *nothing* at all? If so, it
> > > > seems something's wrong with that LCD display.
> > >
> > > If so, it's two of them -- different sizes, different makers. On both,
> > > twiddling the monitor contrast and brightness makes all of the parts of
> > > the circle in a square get brighter or dimmer together, but doesn't do
> > > anything towards making the right side of the square as dark as the left
> > > side.
> >
> > I wouldn't call that "completely inneffective". The monitor is getting
> > darker - just not as dark as you (or Apple) would like.
>
> But just "getting darker" is *not* what's supposed to happen.
>
> What's *supposed to happen* is that the right side of the square darkens
> until it matches the left side, while the left side stays where it was
> (at totally dark). On a CRT, that's what happens. On an LCD (at least,
> the two I have), *both* sides just get proportionally darker, and the
> right side never matches the left. And never gets to absolute black.

Now that you mention it - the color calibration I'm used to seeing
recently doesn't even have that square-with-circle thing. Instead, it
presents several Apple-logo-over-striped-background images where you
adjust the gamma until they blend. This seems like a much better way to
do it. What verion Mac OS X are you using again?

--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than to me, as
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

In article <isw-36924E.20403512082008 DeleteThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
isw <isw DeleteThis @witzend.com> wrote:

> > > My usual setup is a MacBook with a large external CRT in a two-screen
> > > setup. Interestingly, when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on
> > > the CRT has that adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not.
> >
> > That's strange. I've yet to encounter an LCD that didn't allow
> > calibration.
>
> Have you been able to *properly* adjust the monitors using that circle
> and square?

I was responding to your text:

"when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on the CRT has that
adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not"

I've never seen that happen

> >Then again LCDs aren't exactly what you look for when
> > you're truly interested in doing wuality color work, are they? ; )
>
> Probably not, but the best book I have ever seen on photo editing
> claimed (and showed) that not only do you not need a *calibrated*
> monitor, your don't even need a *color* monitor to do exceptional work.

Yep - I wish more people understood this! I learned color correct the
old-school way, where we learned to trust the numbers as opposed to what
you see on the screen.

--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than to me, as
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

In article <jollyroger-E12173.23503112082008 RemoveThis @news.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger RemoveThis @pobox.com> wrote:

> In article <isw-36924E.20403512082008 RemoveThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> isw <isw RemoveThis @witzend.com> wrote:
>
> > > > My usual setup is a MacBook with a large external CRT in a two-screen
> > > > setup. Interestingly, when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one
> > > > on
> > > > the CRT has that adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not.
> > >
> > > That's strange. I've yet to encounter an LCD that didn't allow
> > > calibration.
> >
> > Have you been able to *properly* adjust the monitors using that circle
> > and square?
>
> I was responding to your text:
>
> "when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on the CRT has that
> adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not"
>
> I've never seen that happen

Maybe I wasn't clear: both instances of the calibrator permit precision
calibration, but the one on the LCD does not offer the page with the
square and circle; it goes right to the gamma settings. Both of the
other LCDs are the sole monitor on a Blue & White, and on them, the
calibrator *does* offer that page, but it can't be set properly.

> > >Then again LCDs aren't exactly what you look for when
> > > you're truly interested in doing wuality color work, are they? ; )
> >
> > Probably not, but the best book I have ever seen on photo editing
> > claimed (and showed) that not only do you not need a *calibrated*
> > monitor, your don't even need a *color* monitor to do exceptional work.
>
> Yep - I wish more people understood this! I learned color correct the
> old-school way, where we learned to trust the numbers as opposed to what
> you see on the screen.

And that's precisely how the guy who wrote the book said it should be
done. Margulis, I think his name was; I learned a lot from that book.

Isaac

In article <jollyroger-27AA22.23473112082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:

> In article <isw-36924E.20403512082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <jollyroger-811425.08463912082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <isw-8F2DAD.22231611082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > > isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <jollyroger-F51754.18420011082008.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
> > > > Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article <isw-D9419D.09491311082008.DeleteThis@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > > > > isw <isw.DeleteThis@witzend.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Trying to do a precision color calibration on a flat panel display,
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > cannot get the "gray square with the oval in it" anywhere near dark
> > > > > > enough. I've calibrated plenty of CRTs, and I realize that there is
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > basic difference between the way a CRT and an LCD work (one
> > > > > > produces
> > > > > > light, the other merely valves it), but still, is there any way to
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > decent calibration on the flat ones? Adjusting brightness and
> > > > > > contrast
> > > > > > on the monitor is completely ineffective.
> > > > >
> > > > > Completely ineffective - as in it changes *nothing* at all? If so, it
> > > > > seems something's wrong with that LCD display.
> > > >
> > > > If so, it's two of them -- different sizes, different makers. On both,
> > > > twiddling the monitor contrast and brightness makes all of the parts of
> > > > the circle in a square get brighter or dimmer together, but doesn't do
> > > > anything towards making the right side of the square as dark as the
> > > > left
> > > > side.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't call that "completely inneffective". The monitor is getting
> > > darker - just not as dark as you (or Apple) would like.
> >
> > But just "getting darker" is *not* what's supposed to happen.
> >
> > What's *supposed to happen* is that the right side of the square darkens
> > until it matches the left side, while the left side stays where it was
> > (at totally dark). On a CRT, that's what happens. On an LCD (at least,
> > the two I have), *both* sides just get proportionally darker, and the
> > right side never matches the left. And never gets to absolute black.
>
> Now that you mention it - the color calibration I'm used to seeing
> recently doesn't even have that square-with-circle thing.

That's how it is on the MacBook's LCD, but on its external CRT, it shows
up.

>Instead, it
> presents several Apple-logo-over-striped-background images where you
> adjust the gamma until they blend. This seems like a much better way to
> do it.

I believe that it is an *excellent* way to do it, and if you're very
careful, you can do as well as with a hardware calibrator. But it's not
easy to achieve neutral grays down near black.

Do note that it's a waste of time to calibrate a CRT until it's been
running for about half an hour (so the spacing of the elements in the
tube has stabilized). Not sure about LCDs, but I wait anyhow.

>What verion Mac OS X are you using again?

Tiger. Those gamma (and tracking) adjustments follow the one with the
square and circle (except on the LCD of the MacBook, which skips it and
goes right to the gamma stuff). Did you choose "Expert mode"?

My son's Blue & White, BTW, doesn't have an Apple in there; his has an
"E" with an accent mark over it. I wonder if it's because he's hacked
around with his system font?

Isaac

In article <isw-D7ABEF.09551013082008 DeleteThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
isw <isw DeleteThis @witzend.com> wrote:

> In article <jollyroger-E12173.23503112082008 DeleteThis @news.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger DeleteThis @pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <isw-36924E.20403512082008 DeleteThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> > isw <isw DeleteThis @witzend.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > My usual setup is a MacBook with a large external CRT in a two-screen
> > > > > setup. Interestingly, when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one
> > > > > on
> > > > > the CRT has that adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not.
> > > >
> > > > That's strange. I've yet to encounter an LCD that didn't allow
> > > > calibration.
> > >
> > > Have you been able to *properly* adjust the monitors using that circle
> > > and square?
> >
> > I was responding to your text:
> >
> > "when I open the calibrator on that Mac, the one on the CRT has that
> > adjustment, but the one for the LCD does not"
> >
> > I've never seen that happen
>
> Maybe I wasn't clear: both instances of the calibrator permit precision
> calibration, but the one on the LCD does not offer the page with the
> square and circle; it goes right to the gamma settings. Both of the
> other LCDs are the sole monitor on a Blue & White, and on them, the
> calibrator *does* offer that page, but it can't be set properly.

That, I think, is normal for LCDs.

> > > >Then again LCDs aren't exactly what you look for when
> > > > you're truly interested in doing wuality color work, are they? ; )
> > >
> > > Probably not, but the best book I have ever seen on photo editing
> > > claimed (and showed) that not only do you not need a *calibrated*
> > > monitor, your don't even need a *color* monitor to do exceptional work.
> >
> > Yep - I wish more people understood this! I learned color correct the
> > old-school way, where we learned to trust the numbers as opposed to what
> > you see on the screen.
>
> And that's precisely how the guy who wrote the book said it should be
> done. Margulis, I think his name was; I learned a lot from that book.

Makeready: A Prepress Resource? Great book!

--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than to me, as
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

In article <isw-07116D.10175513082008 RemoveThis @newsgroups.comcast.net>,
isw <isw RemoveThis @witzend.com> wrote:

> My son's Blue & White, BTW, doesn't have an Apple in there; his has an
> "E" with an accent mark over it. I wonder if it's because he's hacked
> around with his system font?

LOL - funny. Could be! I usually type it using Option-Shift-K. Maybe
they're using some other font though.

--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than to me, as
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR