17" trackpad/cursor freeze (general info' post)

In article <1116999770.446325.182620.RemoveThis@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
dumbstruck <dumbstruc.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> You aren't alone. I had a problem similar to that, but it seemed to
> disappear after software updates shortly after you first announced the
> problem. Also had to destroy profit margin by returning the thing
> earlier due to the first one being a used demo (thanks to the Norwegian
> on this forum who deduced that was why mine seemed so strange).


Interesting...

The info' I got is that Apple changed the vendor who supplied their
trackpad, and they had various trackpad problems ever since then...

Online, I read about all sorts of trackpad related problems, such as
getting an electrical shock when the computer was touched, jerky
erratic cursor movement, etc., etc.



> Hmm, wonder if the new generation of OS does any good for this model,
> or if thats just asking for trouble...

Are you still having problems with yours? If so, what kinds of
problems?

In my case, I tried all five versions of the OS from 10.3.7 up to the
latest 10.4.1... but it did not solve my frozen cursor problem.



To tell you the truth, I don't like the idea of a metal chassis on a
powerbook.

I prefer a plastic chassis, if for no other reason than it won't
interfere with Airport antenna reception.

Also, not everyone has a properly grounded A.C. setup in their house,
and that could cause problems with metal chassis.

In my case, the frozen cursor trouble even occured when I used battery
power, when my A.C. adapter was not even connected to the powerbook.



My old powerbooks _never_ had trackpad or cursor problems, even when
running the highly complex modern OSs like Panther and Tiger.


The more powerbooks "improve", the less reliable they are, it seems.

Mark-

Mark,

I have a 17" PowerBook which I bought a couple of months ago. The only
complaint I have is that the cursor is exceedingly difficult to move when
undertaking an option-key-down startup. Is this the same problem you had?

Jim


--
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

In article <0001HW.BEB9F49E0034ED31F0407550.DeleteThis@news.supernews.com>, James
L. Ryan <taliesinsoft.DeleteThis@mac.com> wrote:

> I have a 17" PowerBook which I bought a couple of months ago. The only
> complaint I have is that the cursor is exceedingly difficult to move when
> undertaking an option-key-down startup. Is this the same problem you had?

Yes, it is identical to the problem I had - - - at least now we know
that there are two of us who have the same problem.

For your benefit, here are the things Apple and I unsuccessfully tried
in a vain attempt to cure the problem:

- - - Start - - -
********************************************
Still have original defect with trackpad/cursor, despite Apple's
replacement of trackpad assembly on previous repair attempt.

Cursor will not move in volumes-selector-screen-mode.
(mode when option key is held down after startup chime)

A one-second "wipe" across trackpad results in absolutely no cursor
movement at all.

Cursor can be forced to move a tiny bit with trackpad, if very high
speed finger wipe is used repeatedly, however this is unacceptable to
me because of the delay in positioning the cursor over the desired
icon.

The same one-second "wipe" in regular OS X mode results in cursor
moving entire width of screen, as it should.

Problem only occurs with trackpad, not with mouse.
Problem occurs 100% of the time in volumes-selector-screen-mode.
Problem occurs with default install of OS X 10.3.7 DVD that came with
machine, also with 10.3.8 *** 10.3.9 *** 10.4.0 *** 10.4.1
Problem occurs on A.C. power and also on battery power.
"Palming" trackpad for 5 seconds, then lifting hand away, has no effect
on problem.
Problem does not occur on my other Apple powerbooks.
No 3rd-party app's of any kind are installed, only the Apple OS.
Reset prom, reset firmware, reset power manager, all had no effect on
problem.
*****************************************
- - - Finish - - -


Entire trackpad assembly was replaced by Apple on 1st repair attempt,
that did not cure defect. (Apple tech', Service Technician ID# 31514,
apparently did not check out computer before he shipped it out)

Computer was returned to Apple for a 2nd repair attempt, same Apple
Service Tech' #31514 handled it, shipped it back to me with a cryptic
entry on the Applecare Service form: RETURNED UNREPAIRED

No additional details furnished.

After several more days of haggling with Apple "Product Specialists",
they turned the issue over to Apple "Sales", and informed me that I was
to ship the defective computer back to them, whereupon they would ship
a different new 17-inch powerbook to me, physically configured the same
way as the original. (2 GB Apple installed RAM, Bluetooth, Airport,
and a bunch of other features that cost me well over $3,700 - - -)

Right now I am waiting for the empty shipping box that Apple sends, so
that I can ship the original defective computer back to them.



Being there are two of us who have this problem, there is a chance that
the replacement computer they ship to me later might have the same
problem.

In any case, when/if I receive the replacement, I will post in this NG
whether the replacement works.


If I were you, I would get into the Apple repair "system" as quickly as
possible - - - it will probably take you at least a month to get the
defect resolved to your satisfaction.

Oh yeah, you better refer to Apple _my_ case number 48318726 so that
they are aware your problem has occurred to someone else. (me)

Mark-

Mark,

Many thanks for your detailed description of your trackpad problem on your
17" PowerBook.

As you are now well aware I have experienced exactly the same behavior -- the
trackpad appears to operate normally once the machine has been booted but is
barely usable during an option boot.

In the next couple of days I'll be going to the local Apple store and I'll
have a printed copy of your response in hand. I also plan to test the option
boot on their in-store PowerBooks.

Again, many thanks.

Jim

In article <0001HW.BEBAB897000425F9F0407550.RemoveThis@news.supernews.com>, James
L. Ryan <taliesinsoft.RemoveThis@mac.com> wrote:

> In the next couple of days I'll be going to the local Apple store and I'll
> have a printed copy of your response in hand.

Very good, that should get the ball rolling.

The store personel will probably tell you that they can not do anything
regarding your existing defective 17-inch powerbook, which is true
because they are just "sales" people at the store.

You will have to eventually get into the Apple repair "system"
yourself, in order to get them to authorize any exchange of your
existing powerbook for a new one.

Be prepared for a frustrating experience with Apple's bureaucracy, as
they pass you off from one person to another.

If you manage to keep your temper, things should eventually fall into
place and they will probably authorize an exchange, at no cost to you.



> I also plan to test the option boot on their in-store PowerBooks.

That is a very good idea, because that will let you know just how
widespread the defect is.

If you happen to think of it, when you get back from the store, you
might post something in this NG about the results of your store test.

(all this assuming they have a 17-incher at the store for you to play
with, of course)



I suspect the real root of the trackpad problem is the compatability of
the trackpad driver chips on the motherboard with the trackpad itself.

If the rumors in Google are true, concerning Apple getting a new vendor
to supply trackpads, then the (old) existing trackpad driver chips may
be erractic when they try to drive the trackpad supplied by the new
vendor.

Just second guessing the problem, it may be something altogether
different.


Mark-
(still waiting for Apple to replace my defective 17-inch powerbook,
after its purchase about two months ago)

Today I went to the Apple store and option-started something like 14
PowerBooks, 12, 14, and 17 inch models. I also option-started about a dozen
iBooks. Every single one of the PowerBooks had the problem that the cursor
was difficult to move until the restart was underway. None of the iBooks had
the problem. At the genius counter I was told that the cursor problem occurs
on all of the new PowerBooks and that it is a firmware problem and that Apple
will likely be issuing a firmware patch to fix it. Given that the
option-start problem is more of a nuisance than an impediment to working I've
decided to hold off and see if there is indeed a firmware correction. At this
time I'm only three months into my three years of warranty, so I think that
holding off for a bit is a reasonable thing to do.

In article <0001HW.BEBBC7EF000E2092F0284550.TakeThisOut@news.supernews.com>, James
L. Ryan <taliesinsoft.TakeThisOut@mac.com> wrote:

> Today I went to the Apple store and option-started something like 14
> PowerBooks, 12, 14, and 17 inch models. I also option-started about a dozen
> iBooks. Every single one of the PowerBooks had the problem that the cursor
> was difficult to move until the restart was underway. None of the iBooks had
> the problem. At the genius counter I was told that the cursor problem occurs
> on all of the new PowerBooks and that it is a firmware problem and that Apple
> will likely be issuing a firmware patch to fix it. Given that the
> option-start problem is more of a nuisance than an impediment to working I've
> decided to hold off and see if there is indeed a firmware correction. At this
> time I'm only three months into my three years of warranty, so I think that
> holding off for a bit is a reasonable thing to do.

Thanks for all that information.

That is really weird. I have seen _nothing_ in websites like
MacFixit about the defect.

My guess is that earlier powerbooks did not have the defect, otherwise
we would have heard a lot of screaming and complaining by now.

That kind of goes along with the story I read somewhere that Apple
recently changed vendors for the trackpad assembly, which is likely
when the problem first surfaced.

Based on your experience, I will contact Apple tomorrow and cancel my
replacement powerbook, because it will probably have the same defect.

(unless Apple can apply the new firmware patch to my replacement
powerbook before they ship it to me)

Like you, I will just wait for a firmware patch from Apple.



It is _really_ surprising to me that the Apple technicians at their
main repair depot in Texas knew nothing about the firmware issue.

The Apple "product specialists" in Sacramento, California, likewise
knew nothing about the firmware issue.

....and the Apple engineers at Sacramento likewise knew nothing about
the firmware issue.

Very strange indeed.

Thanks again for doing all that checking at the Apple store.


Do you suppose that we are all unpaid beta hardware testers for
Apple?<g>

Mark-

This message is not archived

In article <slrnda8nm5.hnf.t-use RemoveThis @ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
Trautmann <t-use RemoveThis @gmx.net> wrote:

> I had trackpad tango on an iBook G4 - white plastic was not better. For a
> first attempt the trackpad part was replaced after 5 months. This helped
> for some months, then the problem was back again. This time (with a
> broken hard disk) the logic board was replaced, too. This fixed the
> trackpad problem since 4 weeks.

I am counting on my particular trackpad problem being "different" than
what you encountered with your iBook.

I read somewhere that Apple recently changed to a different trackpad
main supplier for their entire powerbook line, the 12, 14, 15, and 17
inch models.

This change supposedly affects any powerbook shipped after March, 2005,
including all present powerbooks being sold.

The iBook line was not affected, only the powerbook line of computers.


Here is the text of a recent post in this thread from someone who has
the same identical problem with the trackpad and cursor that I have.
I think his last name is "Ryan", do not recall his first name.

Extract from Ryan's post a few weeks ago, in this thread
*****************************************
*****************************************
"Today I went to the Apple store and option-started something
like 14 PowerBooks, 12, 14, and 17 inch models. I also
option-started about a dozen iBooks. Every single one of
the PowerBooks had the problem that the cursor was
difficult to move until the restart was underway.
None of the iBooks had the problem. At the genius counter
I was told that the cursor problem occurs on all of the new
PowerBooks and that it is a firmware problem and that Apple
will likely be issuing a firmware patch to fix it. Given that the
option-start problem is more of a nuisance than an
impediment to working I've decided to hold off and see if there
is indeed a firmware correction. At this time I'm only three
months into my three years of warranty, so I think that
holding off for a bit is a reasonable thing to do."
****************************************
****************************************
End of Ryan's post in this thread, a few weeks ago



Apparently Ryan did not have access to a 15-inch model of powerbook,
but the assumption is that it would be afflicted also.

Note especially that Ryan said that _none_ of the iBooks he tried
were afflicted with this particular problem.

I posted a bug report to Apple on the problem.

In my case, Apple offered to furnish me with another new powerbook,
however I declined their offer, because the likelyhood is about 100%
that the "new" powerbook would be afflicted with the same problem.

Like Ryan, my only sensible option is to sit back and patiently wait
for Apple to provide a fix for the problem.

Besides, on the 2nd turn-around of my 17-inch powerbook under warranty,
Apple's repair department flatly refused to do any further work on it,
returning it to me with a curt entry "RETURNED UNREPAIRED" with no
further explanation.

Apparently their repair department knows that only a future firmware
upgrade will solve the issue.

Mark-

In article <0001HW.BECA633B0026EEFAF0407550.TakeThisOut@news.supernews.com>, James
L. Ryan <taliesinsoft.TakeThisOut@mac.com> wrote:

> > Apparently Ryan did not have access to a 15-inch model of powerbook,
> > but the assumption is that it would be afflicted also.
>
> Actually I did, but I mistakenly referred to it as a 14-inch in the posting
> in which I described my experience in the Apple store with PowerBook
> trackpads.

Ahh, that clears it up. I should have anticipated that, because Apple
does not even make a recent 14-inch powerbook.

Like you, I am learning to live with the defect, because I think it
could be months before a fix will be available from Apple.

If I claw away frantically at the trackpad, it takes me roughly ten
"clawing" operations to move the cursor over to the desired icon.

Good exercise, ya' know, keeps the blood stirring.

Right now, I am busy loading up my new 17-inch powerbook with must-have
stuff, like HexEdit version 1.92, BBEdit 8.2, SuperGetInfo 1.2.2,
TechToolPro 4.0.4, MacSOUP 2.7, Timbuktu 8.0.1

The free HexEdit is very valuable to me. Everyone to their own tastes,
what is valuable to one person is trash to another.

Was especially happy I had TechTool Pro available, because I found out
that Software Update is broken in OS 10.4.1 - - - and I tore up my
"Volume-Structures" trying to get Software Update working.

TechTool did minor repairs of the Volume Structures of OS 10.4.1

Anyone know if Retrospect works okay with Tiger?

I used Retrospect in the past to back up data-only partitions, have no
interest at all in trying to get it to back up a bootable partition.

I run four and a half partitions on my internal 100 GB drive.

Main Tiger partition of 32 GB
Spare Tiger partition of 7 GB
Storage partition of 54 GB
Notes, a tiny partition of 164 MB
An invisible special purpose partition of 248 KB

Also run a small external Firewire-powered 40 GB LaCie pocket drive
that is bootable with OS 10.4.1.

Have not yet decided which major app's to install.

I would like someone to talk me into buying Final Cut Pro, but if no
one comes forward, I will likely buy Final Cut Express instead.<g>

Uh, back to the thread topic. If anyone wants to know the details of
the semi-frozen cursor bug, just speak up and myself and Ryan will
repeat the conditions under which the bug occurs.

The bug is basically an inconvenience and an annoyance, not anything
critical. Kinda like ants crawling up your leg at a picnic, or in my
case, kinda like a Chinese water torture.

Mark-