[gentoo-user] Thanks and bye for now

Quoting Nikos Chantziaras <realnc.DeleteThis@arcor.de>:

> It got worse with kernel 2.6.28, btw, especially mouse cursor movement.
> It gets stuck and skips very noticeably. Fortunately, it's not a
> point yet where I would describe it as unusable, but if the trend
> continues, desktop will be totally unusable by 2.6.31/32 when doing
> something that produces load.

Oh pleeeaase...

You have a broken system. Don't blame Linux for that.

$ uname -a
Linux venkman 2.6.28-gentoo #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu Dec 25 16:48:22 ARST
2008 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

I'm currently compiling gcc-4.3.2-r2, I have no cursor lagging, stuck,
or whatever. Everything is normal. Like if I were not compiling at all.

So check your kernel config, your hardware, etc.

Regards,
Norberto


----------------------------------------------------------------
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Norberto Bensa wrote:
> Quoting Nikos Chantziaras <realnc RemoveThis @arcor.de>:
>
>> It got worse with kernel 2.6.28, btw, especially mouse cursor movement.
>> It gets stuck and skips very noticeably. Fortunately, it's not a
>> point yet where I would describe it as unusable, but if the trend
>> continues, desktop will be totally unusable by 2.6.31/32 when doing
>> something that produces load.
>
> Oh pleeeaase...
>
> You have a broken system. Don't blame Linux for that.
>
> $ uname -a
> Linux venkman 2.6.28-gentoo #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu Dec 25 16:48:22 ARST
> 2008 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
>
> I'm currently compiling gcc-4.3.2-r2, I have no cursor lagging, stuck,
> or whatever. Everything is normal. Like if I were not compiling at all.
>
> So check your kernel config, your hardware, etc.
>
> Regards,
> Norberto
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
>
>

You should see my other reply to someone else in this thread. I can
copy and paste if you can't find it.

Dale

Dale wrote:
> [...]
> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was installed.
> That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say that I have
> ever heard of evdev before.

For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver uses
the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse. It's in
"Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You need to
configure it in xorg.conf to use it.

So in other words, you don't have it

Mick wrote:
> On Monday 29 December 2008, Dale wrote:
>
>> Norberto Bensa wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> Do you use evdev?
>>>
>
>
>> This is what I have installed according to equery:
>>
>> root@smoker / # equery list dev
>> [ Searching for package 'dev' in all categories among: ]
>> * installed packages
>> [I--] [ ~] kde-base/kdewebdev-meta-3.5.10 (3.5)
>> [I--] [ ] sys-fs/device-mapper-1.02.24-r1 (0)
>> [I--] [ ] sys-fs/udev-124-r1 (0)
>> root@smoker / #
>>
>> Point is, the only thing that changes is the kernel. Same KDE, same
>> user, same everything except for the kernel. Is there something
>> different that the new kernels require with regard to udev? Do I need a
>> newer unstable udev installed for the new kernels?
>>
>
> The package/driver is evdev (not udev).
>
> I wouldn't be joining the chorus of disgruntled users pointing at half baked
> kernels with problematic drivers because kernels (for me) have been pretty
> stable for years now. However, that was before 2.6.27-gentoo-r7. My problem
> seems to be two fold:
>
> a)Looong delay (around a whole minute or so) waiting on the penguin logo
> before the kernel is loaded and the main boot up occurs.
> b)My sound card is not recognised by alsa which barfs and never loads.
>
> I have posted on a different thread (which has not attracted any responses)
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/207339
>
> and I assume that my kernel problems are not that common in the Gentoo user
> community. I haven't yet posted a bug on it - but if subsequent kernels do
> not fix it and my confidence that I have not performed some kernel
> configuration error increases I will do so. After all without bug reports
> how would the devs know what's borked for the users?
>

Well, I use make oldconfig and generally say no to the new stuff. That
way I have the same config as the old but with bug fixes. That has
worked for me for a long time but once I get past 2.6.23, I have trouble
with it.

I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was installed.
That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say that I have
ever heard of evdev before.

Dale

Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>> [...]
>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say
>> that I have
>> ever heard of evdev before.
>
> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver uses
> the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse. It's
> in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You need
> to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
>
> So in other words, you don't have it
>
>
>

Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it is
needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new kernel
has that tho when I test it. Just in case.

Dale

Dale wrote:
> Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> Dale wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
>>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
>>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say
>>> that I have
>>> ever heard of evdev before.
>> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver uses
>> the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse. It's
>> in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You need
>> to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
>>
>> So in other words, you don't have it
>
> Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
> old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it is
> needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new kernel
> has that tho when I test it. Just in case.

It's not needed nor required. It's just a different driver. I'm not
sure, but I think the point of this driver is for X to support
autodetected input devices. If you remove all sections for keyboard and
mouse from your x.org conf, then it will autodetect them and use evdev.
This must be part of the plan to get rid of xorg.conf entirely; if you
delete xorg.conf, X should autodetect everything (it's not there yet I
guess, but comes close.)

Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>> Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>> Dale wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
>>>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
>>>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say
>>>> that I have
>>>> ever heard of evdev before.
>>> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver uses
>>> the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse. It's
>>> in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You need
>>> to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
>>>
>>> So in other words, you don't have it
>>
>> Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
>> old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it is
>> needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new kernel
>> has that tho when I test it. Just in case.
>
> It's not needed nor required. It's just a different driver. I'm not
> sure, but I think the point of this driver is for X to support
> autodetected input devices. If you remove all sections for keyboard
> and mouse from your x.org conf, then it will autodetect them and use
> evdev. This must be part of the plan to get rid of xorg.conf
> entirely; if you delete xorg.conf, X should autodetect everything
> (it's not there yet I guess, but comes close.)
>
>
>

I enabled that in the kernel. While I don't hate nano, I would rather
not have to use it. LOL I'll report what happens whenever I get to
reboot again. I usually only reboot when the power company falls off
the stick. o_O

Dale

On Monday 29 December 2008 15:32:45 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Dale wrote:
> > Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> Dale wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
> >>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
> >>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say
> >>> that I have
> >>> ever heard of evdev before.
> >>
> >> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver uses
> >> the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse. It's
> >> in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You need
> >> to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
> >>
> >> So in other words, you don't have it
> >
> > Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
> > old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it is
> > needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new kernel
> > has that tho when I test it. Just in case.
>
> It's not needed nor required. It's just a different driver. I'm not
> sure, but I think the point of this driver is for X to support
> autodetected input devices. If you remove all sections for keyboard and
> mouse from your x.org conf, then it will autodetect them and use evdev.
> This must be part of the plan to get rid of xorg.conf entirely; if you
> delete xorg.conf, X should autodetect everything (it's not there yet I
> guess, but comes close.)

For a single user conventional workstation using X.org 1.5, the X devs want
you to install hal and evdev, then remove xorg.conf entirely and let X
autodetect the lot.

Personally, I can't wait for the day when xorg.conf on single-users
workstations can be trashed *entirely*

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday 29 December 2008 15:32:45 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> Dale wrote:
>> > Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> >> Dale wrote:
>> >>> [...]
>> >>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
>> >>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
>> >>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't say
>> >>> that I have
>> >>> ever heard of evdev before.
>> >>
>> >> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver uses
>> >> the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse. It's
>> >> in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You need
>> >> to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
>> >>
>> >> So in other words, you don't have it
>> >
>> > Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
>> > old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it is
>> > needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new kernel
>> > has that tho when I test it. Just in case.
>>
>> It's not needed nor required. It's just a different driver. I'm not
>> sure, but I think the point of this driver is for X to support
>> autodetected input devices. If you remove all sections for keyboard and
>> mouse from your x.org conf, then it will autodetect them and use evdev.
>> This must be part of the plan to get rid of xorg.conf entirely; if you
>> delete xorg.conf, X should autodetect everything (it's not there yet I
>> guess, but comes close.)
>
> For a single user conventional workstation using X.org 1.5, the X devs want
> you to install hal and evdev, then remove xorg.conf entirely and let X
> autodetect the lot.
>
> Personally, I can't wait for the day when xorg.conf on single-users
> workstations can be trashed *entirely*
>
> --
> alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

First I've heard of this. Interesting. Is there something I should be
reading to keep up with this sort of change?

Thanks,
Mark

On Monday 29 December 2008 16:02:45 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon DeleteThis @gmail.com>
wrote:
> > On Monday 29 December 2008 15:32:45 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> Dale wrote:
> >> > Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> >> Dale wrote:
> >> >>> [...]
> >> >>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
> >> >>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
> >> >>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't
> >> >>> say that I have
> >> >>> ever heard of evdev before.
> >> >>
> >> >> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver
> >> >> uses the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse.
> >> >> It's in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You
> >> >> need to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
> >> >>
> >> >> So in other words, you don't have it
> >> >
> >> > Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
> >> > old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it
> >> > is needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new
> >> > kernel has that tho when I test it. Just in case.
> >>
> >> It's not needed nor required. It's just a different driver. I'm not
> >> sure, but I think the point of this driver is for X to support
> >> autodetected input devices. If you remove all sections for keyboard and
> >> mouse from your x.org conf, then it will autodetect them and use evdev.
> >> This must be part of the plan to get rid of xorg.conf entirely; if you
> >> delete xorg.conf, X should autodetect everything (it's not there yet I
> >> guess, but comes close.)
> >
> > For a single user conventional workstation using X.org 1.5, the X devs
> > want you to install hal and evdev, then remove xorg.conf entirely and let
> > X autodetect the lot.
> >
> > Personally, I can't wait for the day when xorg.conf on single-users
> > workstations can be trashed *entirely*
> >
> > --
> > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
>
> First I've heard of this. Interesting. Is there something I should be
> reading to keep up with this sort of change?

Google, I suppose

I first read it on an Ubuntu dev's blog, then picked up more info from
freedesktop.org when looking for debugging info for an nVidia card. i.e. I
stumbled on it purely by chance.

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:05 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday 29 December 2008 16:02:45 Mark Knecht wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> > On Monday 29 December 2008 15:32:45 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> >> Dale wrote:
>> >> > Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> >> >> Dale wrote:
>> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >>> I would assume I don't have evdev here. Since I asked equery for
>> >> >>> anything with dev in it, it should have listed it if it was
>> >> >>> installed. That is why I ask if there was something new. I can't
>> >> >>> say that I have
>> >> >>> ever heard of evdev before.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For X, it's the x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev package. The driver
>> >> >> uses the in-kernel "event interface" driver for keyboard and mouse.
>> >> >> It's in "Device Drivers->Input device support->Event interface". You
>> >> >> need to configure it in xorg.conf to use it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So in other words, you don't have it
>> >> >
>> >> > Is this required for the new kernels? If not, why does it work in the
>> >> > old ones and not the new ones? Why is something not informing us it
>> >> > is needed would be a good question as well. I'll make sure the new
>> >> > kernel has that tho when I test it. Just in case.
>> >>
>> >> It's not needed nor required. It's just a different driver. I'm not
>> >> sure, but I think the point of this driver is for X to support
>> >> autodetected input devices. If you remove all sections for keyboard and
>> >> mouse from your x.org conf, then it will autodetect them and use evdev.
>> >> This must be part of the plan to get rid of xorg.conf entirely; if you
>> >> delete xorg.conf, X should autodetect everything (it's not there yet I
>> >> guess, but comes close.)
>> >
>> > For a single user conventional workstation using X.org 1.5, the X devs
>> > want you to install hal and evdev, then remove xorg.conf entirely and let
>> > X autodetect the lot.
>> >
>> > Personally, I can't wait for the day when xorg.conf on single-users
>> > workstations can be trashed *entirely*
>> >
>> > --
>> > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
>>
>> First I've heard of this. Interesting. Is there something I should be
>> reading to keep up with this sort of change?
>
> Google, I suppose
>
> I first read it on an Ubuntu dev's blog, then picked up more info from
> freedesktop.org when looking for debugging info for an nVidia card. i.e. I
> stumbled on it purely by chance.
>

Thanks. I thought this comment was somehow more about Gentoo devs than
Linux/xorg overall. My mistake.

Cheers,
Mark

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> The cynic in me wants to say that Colin Kolivas tried telling the kernel devs
> for years about it and got stone-walled and ignored for years, despite
> maintaining a set of desktop patches that worked really well. Eventually he
> gave up and walked away in disgust when Ingo Molnar submitted scheduler
> patches that looked awfully like Colin's, and his were accepted....
>
> I'm not that much of a cynic though. Instead I'll recommend you find a set of
> desktop patches that work well and roll a kernel from those. The kernel devs
> are mostly paid by organizations that have a vested interest in having Linux
> work fabulously on big iron, so that's where the focus will tend to go.

I read the Con Kolivas story some time ago, although frankly I didn't
know what to do about it since I wanted a newer kernel after that. Any
recommendations for a similar ck-like patchset or anything like it for
desktop performance on later kernels? I doubt my toy boxes will really
hit server bottlenecks anyway

Norberto Bensa wrote:
> Quoting Nikos Chantziaras <realnc.RemoveThis@arcor.de>:
>
>> It got worse with kernel 2.6.28, btw, especially mouse cursor movement.
>> It gets stuck and skips very noticeably. Fortunately, it's not a
>> point yet where I would describe it as unusable, but if the trend
>> continues, desktop will be totally unusable by 2.6.31/32 when doing
>> something that produces load.
>
> Oh pleeeaase...
>
> You have a broken system. Don't blame Linux for that.

Could be. But you don't know for sure


> $ uname -a
> Linux venkman 2.6.28-gentoo #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu Dec 25 16:48:22 ARST 2008
> x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
>
> I'm currently compiling gcc-4.3.2-r2, I have no cursor lagging, stuck,
> or whatever. Everything is normal. Like if I were not compiling at all.

I've just emerged glibc (with -j2). It's especially noticeable with it.
Some source files, especially at the beginning of the build, are very
short and result in a lot processes getting spawned and terminated very
fast, along with files rapidly created on disk. Can you give glibc a test?

I've checked my config and can't find anything wrong. I have tickless,
preempt, 1000Hz, -O2, CFQ. The kernel is stripped off of everything not
needed.

Maybe it's due to fglrx? (ATI Catalyst driver.)