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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:00 pm
Post subject: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Archived from groups: linux>gentoo>dev (more info?)
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Hello,
since Gentoo started its "Gentoopix" LiveCD I really miss a CD for
networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing,
because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the
installation 
A year ago I could choose between a Minimal-CD for network-installation,
or a Universal-CD for offline-installation (independence)
network-installation. Nowadays I need to load a "Gentoopix" with a lot
of really unnecessary Gnome-Stuff, and even don't get a real Stage3,
just a bunch of Voodoo-Scripts.
First Question: Where is here the Choice_Of_Gentoo and why are we
breaking with our tradition of shell-installing?
I would be better to offer a real Universal-CD or to creat a
bootloader-script, which gives the users the possibility to start
X11/GTK-Installer if they want this, not without a question.
Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real
Stage3 for networkless-installion?
I think, a gentoo-user should be able to choose between the shell,
ncurses- and a gtk-installer. And any of this groups should have the
same possibilites to install.
Greetz
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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:40 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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You don't unterstand me, sorry.
There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which
forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no
Stage3-Tarball.
The missing Stage3 is the real problem.
On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 16:27 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Peter Weber wrote:
> > Hello,
> > since Gentoo started its "Gentoopix" LiveCD I really miss a CD for
> > networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing,
> > because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the
> > installation
>
> Oh noes, we even have a whole special handbook version [1] for
> networkless installs, but you didn't bother to check even, right?
>
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/index.xml
>
> Sigh.
>
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Since: Oct 05, 2006
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:10 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 10:48 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>
> > Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real
> > Stage3 for networkless-installion?
>
> No. I do plan on putting the stage3 on the next LiveDVD, but without
> the necessary distfiles, it won't do much good for doing a completely
> networkless installation.
> I've actually been writing a document on how to use the installer
> scripts from the command line (without running the installer itself) to
> perform an install.
>
More is not necessary. Thanks.
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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:10 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:50 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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grab catalyst 2 learn how to use it an make your own stage 3
installer. it's pretty easy. their's the gentoo-cayalyst list if you
need help.
> Plus nothing stops you from creating your own customized media using our
> release tools, as already said. You can still install Gentoo from stage1
> if you really wish, it's just not something that we want to support any
> more. You can do lots of other things, like stage4 stuff. I don't see
> how are we discriminating anyone; we just choose what we can support and
> what we don't wish/can't support any more with the limited manpower
> available.
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Since: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:50 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:10 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Oct 06, 2006
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:40 am
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
> the _networkless_ install? One could also download the stage needed,
> slap it on a usb key, and viola! Of course, the other option, is to use
> that crazy installer option "Networkless" - I could be wrong, but I do
> believe that is the option I would choose. (Actually I did this just
> the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my
> networking. And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the
> releng team)
The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't
remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually
either.
At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough.
Paul
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Since: Oct 09, 2006
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Le Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:06:41 -0400,
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2.TakeThisOut@gentoo.org> a écrit :
> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:39 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> > > No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
> > > the _networkless_ install? One could also download the stage needed,
> > > slap it on a usb key, and viola! Of course, the other option, is to use
> > > that crazy installer option "Networkless" - I could be wrong, but I do
> > > believe that is the option I would choose. (Actually I did this just
> > > the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my
> > > networking. And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the
> > > releng team)
> >
> > The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't
> > remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually
> > either.
>
> OK. I *said* that I was writing a document on this, but people seem to
> just want to keep on postulating and talking about complete
> inaccuracies.
>
> Yes, you can install using portions of the installer from the command
> line (not ncurses). Unfortunately, one component necessary for a
> complete install from the command line (installing a kernel) was not
> added until after 2006.1 shipped, so you cannot do a completely
> networkless install with only the LiveCD/LiveDVD.
I will just say at this have to be fixed. From the website: "The Gentoo 2006.1
Handbook is an effort to centralize documentation into a coherent handbook. It
contains the networkless installation instructions for the 2006.1 release "
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=install#doc_chap2
From this handbook: "This document covers the installation using a Gentoo Linux
Installation CD, a bootable CD that contains everything you need to get Gentoo
Linux up and running."
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=1
When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."
>
> > At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough.
>
> I would agree there.
>
I agree too, but only if it work, and it doesn't completely work for a
networless installation.
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Dominique Michel
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Since: Aug 08, 2005
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dominique Michel wrote:
> When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
> it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
> when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
> to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
> that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."
That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations
for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you
get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the
problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network
connection anymore.
--
Kind Regards,
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
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Since: Oct 05, 2006
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:50 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a
stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again!
But why you write always something about the distfiles? Are there users
who want this? I really don't know.
I personally, think in the same way like you!
It is unecessary, because we got every week new ebuilds und useflags, if
someone would a total customized system he need to load alle sources
(stage1 or save it on the hdd before installation).
But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think it
it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64 on
amd64-disk...).
Greetz
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 08:47 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 10:38 +0200, Simon Stelling wrote:
> > Dominique Michel wrote:
> > > When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
> > > it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
> > > when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
> > > to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
> > > that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."
> >
> > That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations
> > for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you
> > get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the
> > problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network
> > connection anymore.
>
> The problem is that it is a change, and our users resist changes.
>
> While I appreciate the input from our users, I have no intentions on
> "going backwards" to what we had before. I was planning on adding more
> content to the LiveDVD images next time around, such as more packages,
> and likely the stage3 tarball. Whether I include any distfiles or not
> is still up in the air, mostly due to the massive number of bugs that
> were caused every single release due to people using the provided
> distfiles/packages incorrectly. We simply don't have enough manpower to
> test every single possible combination of USE and packages during the
> release cycle and our calls for testing usually go mostly unanswered.
> We saw a definite increase in the number of developers helping with
> testing this past release, but we still need more.
>
> At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to
> networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself.
> I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret
> over it.
>
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Since: Oct 07, 2006
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:50 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 2006.10.09 19:42, Peter Weber wrote:
[snip]
> But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think
> it it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64
> on
> amd64-disk...).
>
> Greetz
>
[snip]
Peter,
Such a disk will not support P1s and AMD k6 CPUs (or older).
Is anyone still using Gentoo on anything older ?
Dropping support for x86 <i686 is a debate we need to have some time I
suppose, its a question of when.
There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that
old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1
x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems.
Regards,
Roy Bamford
(neddyseagoon)
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Since: Oct 09, 2006
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell_and_networkless [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?
So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is
more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.
"If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is
working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced
situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This
is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins
> See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
> better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an
> installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
> It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
> installation.
There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If
you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users
and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not*
you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop
notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal
LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.
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Kari Hazzard
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Perfect! I can't say it in a better way!
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 07:40 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?
>
> So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is
> more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.
>
> "If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is
> working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced
> situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This
> is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins
>
> > See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
> > better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an
> > installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
> > It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
> > installation.
>
> There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If
> you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users
> and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not*
> you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop
> notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal
> LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.
>
> --
> Kari Hazzard
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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You've wrote sth. about more content and a stage3 on the LiveDVD, or
not?!
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 17:50 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:42 +0200, Peter Weber wrote:
> > Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a
> > stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again!
>
> I never said that.
>
> > > At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to
> > > networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself.
> > > I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret
> > > over it.
>
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