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Josip Rodin

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Since: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 26



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:40 pm
Post subject: electing multiple people
Archived from groups: linux>debian>vote (more info?)

Hi,

During the discussion on the proposed social committee, I proposed that we
elect (all) the members of that committee. The Debian Constitution currently
doesn't provide for a way to do so - it only describes how a single winner
is decided.

So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote Counting
(part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure):

+ If the election requires multiple winners, the list of winners is
+ created by sorting the list of options by ascending strength.
+ If there are multiple winners with the same ranking which exceed
+ the desired length of the list, the length of the list is extended
+ to include the entire last set of multiple winners.

Is this technically sound? I don't know voting method syntax.

[I posted this on -project, but nobody really commented on it, that's why
I'm re-posting to -vote.]

By "sorting the list of options by ascending strength" I refer to that list
we get from the beat matrix, such as in:

http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_001#outcome

If for example in that outcome we wanted to pick four candidates, it
seems to me that they would be Hocever, McIntyre, Herzog, Verhelst.
If for example we wanted to pick seven, we couldn't go past the first six.

In that graph, no two options happened to be at the same horizontal level.
If by any chance we got that situation, my ammendment further stated:

+ If there are multiple winners with the same ranking which exceed
+ the desired length of the list, the length of the list is extended
+ to include the entire last set of multiple winners.

I thought that that made sense. Does it? Smile

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Lucas Nussbaum

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Since: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 1737



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:20 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 08/10/07 at 17:33 +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> During the discussion on the proposed social committee, I proposed that we
> elect (all) the members of that committee. The Debian Constitution currently
> doesn't provide for a way to do so - it only describes how a single winner
> is decided.
>
> So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote Counting
> (part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure):
>
> + If the election requires multiple winners, the list of winners is
> + created by sorting the list of options by ascending strength.
> + If there are multiple winners with the same ranking which exceed
> + the desired length of the list, the length of the list is extended
> + to include the entire last set of multiple winners.
>
> Is this technically sound? I don't know voting method syntax.

couldn't we get cycles using that? Alternatively, we could iteratively
elect:
- winner1: the winner with all candidates
- winner2: the winner with all candidates minus winner1
- winner3: the winner with all candidates minus [winner1, winner2]
- etc
using the same tally sheet

Or, we could elect a list directly (ie each option is a list of people
willing to work together as SC), which would allow to elect a SC which
is actually representative for Debian. It's probably better than the
first solution, as the first solution isn't clone-proof: we could have
elected n Sams!! Wink
--
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lucas RemoveThis @lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lucas RemoveThis @nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Josip Rodin

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Since: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 26



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:30 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 06:08:41PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> couldn't we get cycles using that? Alternatively, we could iteratively
> elect:
> - winner1: the winner with all candidates
> - winner2: the winner with all candidates minus winner1
> - winner3: the winner with all candidates minus [winner1, winner2]
> - etc
> using the same tally sheet

You can't do that and keep all the 'goodness' of our voting system, because
doing that loses the interdependencies of votes. I don't know how to explain
it properly Smile, please see:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00318.html

> Or, we could elect a list directly (ie each option is a list of people
> willing to work together as SC), which would allow to elect a SC which
> is actually representative for Debian.

This means parties, and I don't see any proof that this would help with
being representative?

> It's probably better than the first solution, as the first solution isn't
> clone-proof: we could have elected n Sams!! Wink

There should be some sentence in the constitution that can be interpreted as
a rule against cloning... Smile

--
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Josip Rodin

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Since: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 26



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 07:26:42PM +0300, Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho wrote:
> > So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote Counting
> > (part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure):
>
> The method you suggest suffers from not delivering proportional results.
> See discussion in
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00318.html
> and
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00261.html
>
> Let's not invent our own bad voting systems.

Er, but I didn't suggest that. Or at least I don't think I did - or is the
picture provided at the vote.d.o generated by applying the iterative method?

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Manoj Srivastava

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Since: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 1024



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:10 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:33:54 +0200, Josip Rodin <joy.TakeThisOut@entuzijast.net> said:

> Hi, During the discussion on the proposed social committee, I proposed
> that we elect (all) the members of that committee. The Debian
> Constitution currently doesn't provide for a way to do so - it only
> describes how a single winner is decided.

> So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote
> Counting (part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure):

> + If the election requires multiple winners, the list of winners is
> + created by sorting the list of options by ascending strength.
> + If there are multiple winners with the same ranking which exceed
> + the desired length of the list, the length of the list is extended
> + to include the entire last set of multiple winners.

> Is this technically sound? I don't know voting method syntax.

I do not think this is. I would like the solution to at least
have the property of proportionality, if nothing else, which the above
does not have.

I am working on a variant of the method we use (which is also
defined very clearly in [0]. I want to prevent the kinds of problems
of free riding mentioned in [1], for example, in any mechanism we
select.

With that in mind, I would like to expand on the ideas
presented in [1] above, and expanded upon in [2], rather than try
ad-hoc voting methods. If there are other methods to use that have the
same theoretical underpinnings as [2], I would be happy to consider
them.

manoj

0: A New Monotonic, Clone-Independent, Reversal Symmetric, and
Condorcet-Consistent Single-Winner Election Method --- Markus Schulze
http://m-schulze.webhop.net/schulze1.pdf

1: Free Riding and Vote Management under Proportional Representation by
the Single Transferable Vote --- Markus Schulze
http://m-schulze.webhop.net/schulze2.pdf

2: Implementing the Schulze STV Method --- Markus Schulze
http://m-schulze.webhop.net/schulze3.zip

--
"Someone's been mean to you! Tell me who it is, so I can punch him
tastefully." Ralph Bakshi's Mighty Mouse
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta.TakeThisOut@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Manoj Srivastava

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Since: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 1024



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:10 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:35:32 +0200, Josip Rodin <joy.RemoveThis@entuzijast.net> said:

> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 07:26:42PM +0300, Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho wrote:
>> > So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote
>> > Counting (part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure):
>>
>> The method you suggest suffers from not delivering proportional
>> results. See discussion in
>> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00318.html> and
>> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00261.html>
>> Let's not invent our own bad voting systems.

> Er, but I didn't suggest that. Or at least I don't think I did - or is
> the picture provided at the vote.d.o generated by applying the
> iterative method?

The pictures are my very own, minimal computation, not-to-be-
taken-seriously-but-present-some-pretty-pictures-that-in-most-cases-
do-not-depart-too-far-from-the-truth.

In no way are these pretty graphics to be taken as a basis of
actually making decisions; they present instead a rough graphical view
of the pair wise defeats in a method only suited to finding a single
winner.

I am working on getting a working code for devotee for multiple
winners; which will degenerate into the current method for the special
case where the number of winners = 1; please don't hurry me, I tend to
commit typos and other errors when so hurried.

Of course, patches to devotee are always welcome.

manoj
--
We do not colonize. We conquer. We rule. There is no other way for
us. Rojan, "By Any Other Name", stardate 4657.5
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta.RemoveThis@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Josip Rodin

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Since: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 26



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:20 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:02:26PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > Er, but I didn't suggest that. Or at least I don't think I did - or is
> > the picture provided at the vote.d.o generated by applying the
> > iterative method?
>
> The pictures are my very own, minimal computation, not-to-be-
> taken-seriously-but-present-some-pretty-pictures-that-in-most-cases-
> do-not-depart-too-far-from-the-truth.
>
> In no way are these pretty graphics to be taken as a basis of
> actually making decisions; they present instead a rough graphical view
> of the pair wise defeats in a method only suited to finding a single
> winner.

You should then reorganize the pages to put the actual data used to make
the outcome first, and the purely informative picture later. Right now
the picture is shown as the first thing under the "Outcome" heading,
which is not right.

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Manoj Srivastava

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Since: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 1024



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:18:50 +0200, Josip Rodin <joy.TakeThisOut@entuzijast.net> said:

> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:02:26PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> > Er, but I didn't suggest that. Or at least I don't think I did - or
>> > is the picture provided at the vote.d.o generated by applying the
>> > iterative method?
>>
>> The pictures are my very own, minimal computation, not-to-be-
>> taken-seriously-but-present-some-pretty-pictures-that-in-most-cases-
>> do-not-depart-too-far-from-the-truth.
>>
>> In no way are these pretty graphics to be taken as a basis of
>> actually making decisions; they present instead a rough graphical
>> view of the pair wise defeats in a method only suited to finding a
>> single winner.

> You should then reorganize the pages to put the actual data used to
> make the outcome first, and the purely informative picture
> later. Right now the picture is shown as the first thing under the
> "Outcome" heading, which is not right.

I think you misunderstand. The graph is a perfectly clear
representation of the pairwise defeats as it corresponds to the single
winner outcome; and it shows the relative strengths of the defeats.
There is nothing wrong with it -- as long as you do not try to project
and use that data for multi-winner predictions. All the candidates are
rpesented, and the relative pairwise defeats are presented -- quite
correctly. Assuming that the pairwise defeats have something to do
with global ordering is a leap, however, and not one which is promoted
by the web page.

The figure does represent the actual data sued to make the
single winner outcome.

None of the data presented, first, or last, has any bearing on
multi-winner results, and I do not make any representations that the
data does indeed talk about multiple winners in any way, shape, or
form.

manoj
--
Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly.
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta.TakeThisOut@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
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Josip Rodin

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Since: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 26



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 02:54:18PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> I think you misunderstand. The graph is a perfectly clear
> representation of the pairwise defeats as it corresponds to the single
> winner outcome; and it shows the relative strengths of the defeats.
> There is nothing wrong with it -- as long as you do not try to project
> and use that data for multi-winner predictions. All the candidates are
> rpesented, and the relative pairwise defeats are presented -- quite
> correctly. Assuming that the pairwise defeats have something to do
> with global ordering is a leap, however, and not one which is promoted
> by the web page.

Uh, yes, it is. The picture clearly orders candidates from top to bottom,
so it's a fair assumption. But never mind.

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Manoj Srivastava

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Since: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 1024



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:20 am
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:41:41 +0200, Josip Rodin <joy RemoveThis @entuzijast.net> said:

> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 02:54:18PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> I think you misunderstand. The graph is a perfectly clear
>> representation of the pairwise defeats as it corresponds to the
>> single winner outcome; and it shows the relative strengths of the
>> defeats. There is nothing wrong with it -- as long as you do not try
>> to project and use that data for multi-winner predictions. All the
>> candidates are rpesented, and the relative pairwise defeats are
>> presented -- quite correctly. Assuming that the pairwise defeats
>> have something to do with global ordering is a leap, however, and not
>> one which is promoted by the web page.

> Uh, yes, it is. The picture clearly orders candidates from top to
> bottom, so it's a fair assumption. But never mind.

You do have a point. Based on the pairwise defeats, one can get
a sense of how candidates might have ranked --- and the ranking so
uncovered is likely to be correct in absence of circular defeats (in
other words, if the second place race did not have a clear [condorcet]
winner).

The picture gives, in other words, a ranking that conveys
information, is often not far from the truth, and thus, useful
interpretation of the beat matrix, and yet is still unsuitable for more
formal use cases -- like deciding how to order N winners, where N > 1.

Anyway, I'll try and place the winner first on the next set of
updates I do.

manoj
--
What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta RemoveThis @debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
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Wouter Verhelst

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Since: Mar 14, 2008
Posts: 280



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 11:57:18AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
[...]
> ad-hoc voting methods. If there are other methods to use that have the
> same theoretical underpinnings as [2], I would be happy to consider
> them.

What about the Kemeny-Young method?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemeny-Young_method

--
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-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Russ Allbery

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Since: Nov 17, 2005
Posts: 833



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Josip Rodin <joy.RemoveThis@entuzijast.net> writes:

> So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote Counting
> (part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure):

> + If the election requires multiple winners, the list of winners is
> + created by sorting the list of options by ascending strength.
> + If there are multiple winners with the same ranking which exceed
> + the desired length of the list, the length of the list is extended
> + to include the entire last set of multiple winners.

> Is this technically sound? I don't know voting method syntax.

I think this runs the same risk as the original US Vice Presidential
election system. If you elect the runner-up as part of the same slate as
the winner, you end up with pathological results in a divisive election
with two or more opposing slates. Basically, you end up electing the
leaders of each slate and calling them the winning group, resulting in a
team of people who have sharp disagreements and who may not be able to
work together.

I've had enough bad experiences with committees and groups in the past
that I've developed a deep dislike of voting or nomination systems that
don't take into account the ability of the chosen slate to work with each
other. I'd rather end up with a weaker candidate who can cooperate with
the leading candidate than the two strongest candidates who will then be
at loggerheads.

--
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Andreas Tille

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Since: Oct 09, 2007
Posts: 1



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:20 am
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hi,

just a very ruogh idea (I never dived into the theory of voting)
which IMHO sounds apropriate for our case. At first we need
a set of volunteer candidates. Let's assume we have ten
candidates for a team of seven people: A, B, ... J.
Now let people do a negative selection and vota "against"
candidates that they do not want into the set of people. Assume
candidate C, I and H got most negative votes the other ones
are elected. This could be a little bit harsh for C, I and H
personally, but IMHO it is an apropriate way to easily select
a team of equal people.

Kind regards

Andreas.
--
http://fam-tille.de


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Josip Rodin

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Since: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 26



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:30 am
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 02:47:20PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > > Or, we could elect a list directly (ie each option is a list of people
> > > willing to work together as SC), which would allow to elect a SC which
> > > is actually representative for Debian.
> > This means parties, and I don't see any proof that this would help with
> > being representative?
>
> It doesn't necessarily mean parties in the normal sense. You could, eg,
> have two rounds of nominations; first letting people nominate themselves
> to be on the committee, then letting the nominees pick their "dream team",
> so if your nominees for a three person committee are Alice, Bob, Carol,
> Dave, Eve, and Fred, they might pick their teams as:
>
> Alice, Carol, Eve
> Bob, Carol, Fred
> Carol, Bob, Alice
> Dave, Bob, Carol
> Eve, Alice, Bob
> Fred, Carol, Dave
>
> ie, you can get a genuine mix, rather than just a party-line split
> (Alice, Carol, Eve versus Bob, Dave and Fred, eg).

Another problem is how to determine the number and choice of permutations
to use if there are e.g. 10 candidates who suggest 40 options? A huge ballot
is quite unwieldy, and its sorting sounds like an easily contested issue Smile

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Josip Rodin

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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:30 am
Post subject: Re: electing multiple people [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 05:33:54PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> + If the election requires multiple winners, the list of winners is
> + created by sorting the list of options by ascending strength.
> + If there are multiple winners with the same ranking which exceed
> + the desired length of the list, the length of the list is extended
> + to include the entire last set of multiple winners.
>
> Is this technically sound? I don't know voting method syntax.

So, scrapping that - how does the election of multiple candidates in
the SPI board election work? (weasel?)

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