Questions to the candidates

Raphael Hertzog <hertzog.DeleteThis@debian.org> writes:
> Can you give more specific examples of what could be the "core
> infrastructure support" ?

Feel free to include/exclude any infrastructure you like, but just to
give an example, how about our buildd network administration (and no,
I'm not saying that our buildd network isn't administered up to par,
but there are quite a few developers who have said so)?

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On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, Kalle Kivimaa wrote:
> Raphael Hertzog <hertzog.DeleteThis@debian.org> writes:
> > Can you give more specific examples of what could be the "core
> > infrastructure support" ?
>
> Feel free to include/exclude any infrastructure you like, but just to
> give an example, how about our buildd network administration (and no,
> I'm not saying that our buildd network isn't administered up to par,
> but there are quite a few developers who have said so)?

So your question is "What about paying people to have first-class support
on some of our core infrastructure", is that correct ?

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
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Raphael Hertzog <hertzog.TakeThisOut@debian.org> writes:
> So your question is "What about paying people to have first-class support
> on some of our core infrastructure", is that correct ?

Exactly, thanks for a better wording.

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On 2/25/07, Kalle Kivimaa <killer.DeleteThis@debian.org> wrote:
> Now that we are well into the campaigning period, I'd like to ask each
> candidate a couple of questions. Feel free to say that "this is
> answered in my platform", if that is the case.
>
> What is the role of the DPL? Is he a strong leader, who uses his
> position to Get Things Done His Way, a public figurehead, who just
> Speaks For The Project, a mediator, who tries to solve internal
> squabbles, or something else?

Hi Kalle,

He can be a strong leader, and a strong DPL doesn't just get things
done his way, but get things done for a better universal operating
system. It means that the Debian way sometimes can and will
differ from DPL way and it isn't necessarily bad.

> Do you feel that the DPL is first and foremost The Debian Project
> Leader, in the sense that anything Debian-related the DPL does, he
> does so as the DPL, not as a DD or a private person?

Anything a DPL does or say inside the debsphere can be more harmful or
motivational than if he was a not elected community member (eg.: DD,
NM, whatever). He still can do a lot as a DD or a private person, but
during the term he is more exposed and needs to be committed to his
platform, keeping in mind that he is a DPL mainly because the project
decided that the platform is worth.

> There are problems with communication between some key teams and
> the rest of the project. What solutions will you try to implement
> during the next year?

Great question, i hope the answer is clear in my platform. In some
words: I won't try to solve social problems with technical solutions,
but we need some more visibility to the pending issues and we can do
this technically. The next step is evaluate what is really wrong, who
(if somebody) is missing in action and who will come in to work.

> How do you feel about spending Debian monies into buying core
> infrastructure support?

I don't think we need to pay for key teams work. We've great and
skilled volunteers already working and a lot just waiting the
opportunity and a better atmosphere.

> Currently just about every single conversation on -project and
> -vote degenerates immediately into a (minor) flame war. What will you
> do to fix the current atmosphere?

I won't, Debian project itself will fix the current atmosphere,
because once i start working on my platform i think it will be the
first intentional side effect in place. There's no magic formula, it's
just a matter of hard work and bring on the table more solutions and
less discussions. Discussions are good, endless discussions have no
point. I want competition and cooperation between teams and single
developers to make a better universal operating system, to work on
solutions and not competition between words, insults. Let's those who
wants to work, do their volunteer job, some who are disappointed will
join us, others don't. I hope the results will be quite good, time
will tell.

I will add your questions and my answers into my campaign page, ok?

regards,
-- stratus
http://stratusandtheswirl.blogspot.com


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"Gustavo Franco" <stratus RemoveThis @debian.org> writes:
> I will add your questions and my answers into my campaign page, ok?

Yes, all candidates (and others, too) may consider my post as a whole
and as individual questions as being licensed under BSD license,
without any attribution clauses, or alternatively as being in public
domain, whichever is the least restrictive licensing scheme in the
licensee's jurisdiction

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Hi!

On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 07:57:21AM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote:
> Now that we are well into the campaigning period, I'd like to ask each
> candidate a couple of questions. Feel free to say that "this is
> answered in my platform", if that is the case.
>
> What is the role of the DPL? Is he a strong leader, who uses his
> position to Get Things Done His Way, a public figurehead, who just
> Speaks For The Project, a mediator, who tries to solve internal
> squabbles, or something else?

This, I think, is a very good question, and part of what has driven me
to become a candidate this year. It's partially answered in my platform,
but since parts aren't and since the platforms aren't up yet as of this
writing, here goes:

I do not think a good DPL can be a strong leader. Debian has always
tried to do "The Right Thing", whatever that means; this is something
you can only get through having the right people discuss about a
problem, and have them try to get to a solution. That's not always easy,
and it probably never is the fastest way to get something done; but
personally, I value quality and correctness over speed.

That is not to say that I think the DPL should be a mere figurehead; I
do think there can be cases where the voice of the DPL is more important
than the voice of any developer. This can be through mediation, but it
can also be done in many other ways, such as, e.g., by trying to analyse
and focus a discussion.

In short, I think a DPL cannot be a Benevolent Dictator; but OTOH, I do
not think he should be a total politician, either.

> Do you feel that the DPL is first and foremost The Debian Project
> Leader, in the sense that anything Debian-related the DPL does, he
> does so as the DPL, not as a DD or a private person?

No. However, since the DPL is the DPL, it is not uncommon nor unexpected
for people to confuse "something the DPL does" with "something the
person who just happens to be DPL does"

> There are problems with communication between some key teams and
> the rest of the project. What solutions will you try to implement
> during the next year?

As I said in my platform, I will try to work on this.

I don't think it's prudent to come up with a detailed plan right now,
however, for a very simple reason: while I'm generally aware of how
these "key teams" of which I presume you're talking usually do their
work and how or when they fail to complete it in a way that is
satisfactory, I do not know about all the details which I think will be
relevant. As such, any plan I could come up with right now might very
well turn out to be impossible to implement in practice.

I do agree that there is a problem in that area, however, and I hope to
be able to work with these teams to do something which will at least
improve the situation.

> How do you feel about spending Debian monies into buying core
> infrastructure support?

If that is required and would help the project, then we should do it.

> Currently just about every single conversation on -project and
> -vote degenerates immediately into a (minor) flame war. What will you
> do to fix the current atmosphere?

The main problem, as I see it, is that Debian's culture inherently
condones flaming. I do not feel this is correct, and I will let people
know so. I will encourage other people to react to flaming, too.

The key word there would be politeness: politely ask people to stay
polite.

--
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-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Hello,

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, Kalle Kivimaa wrote:
> Raphael Hertzog <hertzog RemoveThis @debian.org> writes:
> > So your question is "What about paying people to have first-class support
> > on some of our core infrastructure", is that correct ?
>
> Exactly, thanks for a better wording.

I don't think it's a good idea. You can pay someone to run a service, but
our core infrastructure doesn't only need to run, it also needs to evolve.
In Debian, the people who are running a service are also making it evolve.
If you pay someone (else) to do that, you're going away from this because
the person paid doesn't really care anymore about the evolution.

On the contrary, giving someone the resources required to implement some
evolution is something that can be financed. But that's something else and
I'll have the opportunity to discuss that in response to other questions.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Le mardi 27 février 2007 à 18:36 +1000, Anthony Towns a écrit :
> I'd rather see a Dunc-Tank report (and criticism and
> analysis of that) before thinking more about it.

Aren't you the one supposed to write it?

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`- our own. Resistance is futile.

Hello,

Kalle Kivimaa wrote:

> What is the role of the DPL? Is he a strong leader, who uses his
> position to Get Things Done His Way, a public figurehead, who just
> Speaks For The Project, a mediator, who tries to solve internal
> squabbles, or something else?

The current role seems to be that the DPL can make things "official",
like a public statement or a delegation. Obviously, there is noone in
the project better suited to do that, but IMO the primary role of the
DPL should be that of the mediator.

> Do you feel that the DPL is first and foremost The Debian Project
> Leader, in the sense that anything Debian-related the DPL does, he
> does so as the DPL, not as a DD or a private person?

Both. Foremost, the position of the DPL is a "hat" that can be put on if
needed, and shouldn't be put on if there is no clear need for it,
however it is also important that the person below the hat still has the
trust and respect of the others. The DPL can only mediate as long as he
is deemed impartial, and this is a highly subjective judgement in which
the wearing or non-wearing of hats only plays a minor role.

> There are problems with communication between some key teams and
> the rest of the project. What solutions will you try to implement
> during the next year?

The best solution I can currently think of would be asking individual
team members in person what is currently going on. The difficulty in
talking to a team is that "everybody" translates to "everybody but me",
so the idea is to point at a specific person and ask for ten or twenty
minutes of their time.

> How do you feel about spending Debian monies into buying core
> infrastructure support?

Sure, letting the money rot in the bank without a benefit does not make
sense; I also believe that spending the money wisely will result in more
donations coming in. The key word is "wisely", though.

So far, we have mainly bought replacement parts for machines that had
broken down, which is a fairly uncontroversial thing: everybody can see
the necessity of doing that.

I think this is the main issue people have with dunc-tank: By paying
people to perform some task in Debian, we'd effectively acknowledge that
it is necessary to pay them, otherwise we wouldn't. However if this is
the case, then it is not a once-off thing, but will be recurring every
year; claiming otherwise asks the question of why this particular
incident is different and should not be seen as a precedent.

There is a lot of gray area between those extremes, and we have to
decide on a case-by-case basis. I can see Debian spending more money
than it used to (e.g. to get some of the developer machines back up),
but I want to avoid both setting precedent and starting an internal
competition for money (which I've written more about in my platform[0]).

> Currently just about every single conversation on -project and
> -vote degenerates immediately into a (minor) flame war. What will you
> do to fix the current atmosphere?

Step in at the point where everything has been said and people are
merely reformulating their arguments; provide a summary and, if
possible, a compromise solution. Doing that as the DPL gives the summary
enough visibility to be noticed, otherwise it would be just another opinion.

Simon


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I wrote:

> There is a lot of gray area between those extremes, and we have to
> decide on a case-by-case basis. I can see Debian spending more money
> than it used to (e.g. to get some of the developer machines back up),
> but I want to avoid both setting precedent and starting an internal
> competition for money (which I've written more about in my platform[0]).

[0] happens to be at http://people.debian.org/~sjr/platform.html for the
time being.

Simon


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Simon Richter <sjr RemoveThis @debian.org> wrote:

>> Do you feel that the DPL is first and foremost The Debian Project
>> Leader, in the sense that anything Debian-related the DPL does, he
>> does so as the DPL, not as a DD or a private person?
>
> Both. Foremost, the position of the DPL is a "hat" that can be put on
> if needed, and shouldn't be put on if there is no clear need for it,
> however it is also important that the person below the hat still has
> the trust and respect of the others. The DPL can only mediate as long
> as he is deemed impartial, and this is a highly subjective judgement
> in which the wearing or non-wearing of hats only plays a minor role.

Do you not see the problem that people might view the DPL's hat on top
of the DD's head, even if the DD think's he isn't wearing it?

> I think this is the main issue people have with dunc-tank: By paying
> people to perform some task in Debian, we'd effectively acknowledge
> that it is necessary to pay them, otherwise we wouldn't. However if
> this is the case, then it is not a once-off thing, but will be
> recurring every year; claiming otherwise asks the question of why this
> particular incident is different and should not be seen as a
> precedent.

I cannot speak for "people", but for *me* this is not the main issue.

Personally, I was pretty undecided with respect to paying the release
managers. I am *really* angry, however (always must hold myself back
from writing this other four-letter-word with 'u' when spelling
dunc-tank), about the fact that our DPL, as soon as he felt the wind
blowing in his face, turned his back on the project and founded
dunc-tank, out of the control of the project, but with unclear boundary
to it, and with him juggling with DPL, DD and personal hats.


Regards, Frank
--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

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> What is the role of the DPL? Is he a strong leader, who uses his
> position to Get Things Done His Way, a public figurehead, who just
> Speaks For The Project, a mediator, who tries to solve internal
> squabbles, or something else?

A DPL should be all of the above, however in my opinion Debian currently
needs a mediator that has enough leadership potential to turn debates
from personal to strategic.

> Do you feel that the DPL is first and foremost The Debian Project
> Leader, in the sense that anything Debian-related the DPL does, he
> does so as the DPL, not as a DD or a private person?

I feel that DPL will have little time to contribute to Debian in the
ways that all other developers do if he would be doing all the thing
that only the DPL can do.

> There are problems with communication between some key teams and
> the rest of the project. What solutions will you try to implement
> during the next year?

Relieve them from the pressure of the release and then have them
re-evaluate their roles along with the rest of the project in debates
about the future direction of the whole project.

> How do you feel about spending Debian monies into buying core
> infrastructure support?

Infrastructure is good and IMHO that is what Debian money is supposed to
be spent on, but we must have clear understanding on how that would be
used and how it will benefit the project. However, by this I only mean
investments into hardware and essential services (bandwidth,
electricity, cooling, ...) and not hire of administrators.

> Currently just about every single conversation on -project and
> -vote degenerates immediately into a (minor) flame war. What will you
> do to fix the current atmosphere?

Flamewars have either personal basis or are based on misunderstanding of
the opponents position, possibly because of non-stated interests.
Personal antipathies should be solvable by personal meetings in Debian
events. If a flamewar escalates, then it would be appropriate for the
DPL to step in and ask for some cooldown. In the worst case a compromise
should be offered if at all possible. However I do not think that there
is a major problem with some heated discussions if there are results.

- --
Best regards,
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Steve McIntyre <steve DeleteThis @einval.com> writes:
> Finally, I'm curious - where do you stand on these issues?

Well, I guess I should send this as a private email to Steve, but
considering that most of the candidates have answered these already,
here are my personal opinions

>>What is the role of the DPL? Is he a strong leader, who uses his

I feel that in a volunteer project you actually could have any of the
three kinds of leaders I listed, with everybody being more or less
happy. E.g. in my local Red Cross chapter we had a very strong
chairman a few years back, who got things very much done her way, with
very little opposition. Currently I'm the chairman and I try to be a
figurehead and a facilitator, and things seem to work just as fine.

I just wanted to hear what type of leader you all would be

>>Do you feel that the DPL is first and foremost The Debian Project
>>Leader, in the sense that anything Debian-related the DPL does, he
>>does so as the DPL, not as a DD or a private person?

My belief is that the DPL hat is something you can take off. Of
course, the DPL must be very explict in this, but if I take the
dunc-tank issue, which sparked my question, I think aj handled it not
that badly. Maybe he could have been more clear but he most certainly
had the moral right to be involved in dunc-tank.

>>There are problems with communication between some key teams and
>>the rest of the project. What solutions will you try to implement
>>during the next year?

I personally have had very little to do with our core teams, and I
raised this question solely based on the -project discussions by
others, who find (some of) the core teams silent and unresponsive. So,
again, I was just curious to hear your thoughts

>>How do you feel about spending Debian monies into buying core
>>infrastructure support?

Again, question inspired by others. I personally don't think we would
be any better off hiring administrators, we are doing just fine with
our volunteer effort.

>>Currently just about every single conversation on -project and
>>-vote degenerates immediately into a (minor) flame war. What will you
>>do to fix the current atmosphere?

I feel very strongly that the current mailing list atmosphere is more
or less intolerable. I've actually considered resigning from the
project (not a big loss, I have a couple of not-that-important
packages and you can always find a better Auditor), as reading just
-project and -vote makes me sad at the level of "discussion". But, I
think I'll give the new DPL a couple of months to try to find out ways
to improve.

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