[KDE 4.1 backports] yakuake missing

Ana Guerrero wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 11:32:17AM -0400, Ben E. Hard wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I'm missing the kde4-version of yakuake in the backports. It is included
>> in experimental and the kde3-version crashes under kde4, so I suggest
>> including it in the lenny backports for kde4.
>>
>
> Backports for 4.1 are meant only for kde4 official packages, so it is not
> exaclty missing

Ok, then it is not missing, but I miss it Still that policy will probably become if not a problem, then at least something uncomfortable: with each new application being ported to kde4 and not being included in lenny, one would have to get it from experimental. But I'm not saying you should do all that work of packing all kde4-programms. Would they be included in the normal backports? If not, the idea of using lenny + kde4 will always be a mix of kde3 + 4 with some programs not working or not integrating completely in kde4.

> I will look when backporting 4.1.1 to include it, but i can not promise it
> (it is not a big job, but if i include yakuake, then i can be asked for
> include more and more programs...). In the case of yakuake, i am the
> maintainer and know the situation pretty well, not in the case of another
> kde4 apps. We'll see
>
> OTOH, if you grab package from experimental, it will work perfeclty, and
> it won't push any depend.
I did that, works perfectly.
>
Thanks. Ben


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Modestas Vainius wrote:

> Hi,
>
> trečiadienis 03 rugsėjis 2008, Ben E. Hard rašė:
>> Ok, then it is not missing, but I miss it Still that policy will
>> probably become if not a problem, then at least something uncomfortable:
>> with each new application being ported to kde4 and not being included in
>> lenny, one would have to get it from experimental.
> That's exactly what this policy is supposed to protect from. New
> applications will be released and some users will definitely want them.
> You should look at KDE 4.1 backports for Lenny as an additional
> feature/service. Actually, as KDE 4.1 could not be included in Lenny due
> to unfortunate release timing and a few other issues, we thought that
> adventurous Lenny users should not be left only with aging KDE 3.5. Sorry,
> but it's never been a goal to provide the best possible KDE 4.1 desktop
> experience in Lenny.
I know that it is only an additional feature and that Ana doesn't want to provide the "best possible KDE 4.1 desktop experience" in Lenny. But why shouldn't he or somebody else provide a good experience with some more KDE4 programs for Lenny?

>>But I'm not saying you should do all that work of packing all
>>kde4-programms.
> Criteria is set - backports of official KDE 4.1.x modules. No more or
> less. I do not think that making exceptions is a good thing.
Why not? Why that fundamentalism? Don't you want to leave it to Ana which packages he includes?
>
>>Would they be included in the normal backports?
> Depends. first of all Lenny needs to be released and current stuff in
> experimental to enter a new testing via unstable. Only then "normal
> backports" can be made.
>
>>If not, the idea of using lenny + kde4 will always be a mix of kde3 + 4
>>with
> some programs not working or not integrating completely in kde4
> KDE 4.1 desktop in Lenny is an *additional* and *unofficial* feature which
> you can use as it is with no support (as in no fixing of Lenny-only
> issues).

Why do you think it is without support? Of course there is no official support of debian, but Ana kindly responds to that mailinglist.

> Basically, Lenny will always be like this as you see it now (with
> regard to software up-to-dateness). Finally, you probably do not want to
> use Debian stable release anyway. Once Lenny is released, keep using
> testing ("Squeeze") and it eventually will get the whole KDE 4.x desktop
> and other KDE 4 applications.

Of course, but I have the feeling that these backports are meant to help testing users to use KDE4 right now before Lenny is released. The backports won't include anything after KDE 4.1.x (so are the plans according to kde4.debian.net), as the backports will be useless once official KDE4-packages appear in testing.

Greetings,
Ben


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On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:39:32AM -0400, Ben E. Hard wrote:
> Modestas Vainius wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > trečiadienis 03 rugsėjis 2008, Ben E. Hard rašė:
> >> Ok, then it is not missing, but I miss it Still that policy will
> >> probably become if not a problem, then at least something uncomfortable:
> >> with each new application being ported to kde4 and not being included in
> >> lenny, one would have to get it from experimental.
> > That's exactly what this policy is supposed to protect from. New
> > applications will be released and some users will definitely want them.
> > You should look at KDE 4.1 backports for Lenny as an additional
> > feature/service. Actually, as KDE 4.1 could not be included in Lenny due
> > to unfortunate release timing and a few other issues, we thought that
> > adventurous Lenny users should not be left only with aging KDE 3.5. Sorry,
> > but it's never been a goal to provide the best possible KDE 4.1 desktop
> > experience in Lenny.
> I know that it is only an additional feature and that Ana doesn't want to provide the "best possible KDE 4.1 desktop experience" in Lenny. But why shouldn't he or somebody else provide a good experience with some more KDE4 programs for Lenny?
>

Modax provided you a very good argument about this....
If you *really* want the best KDE 4.X desktop experience, you should use now
the experimental packages, help reporting (*) and fixing bugs on those
packages.

(*) no packaging bugs should go to bugs.kde.org if you want to be helpful

> >>But I'm not saying you should do all that work of packing all
> >>kde4-programms.
> > Criteria is set - backports of official KDE 4.1.x modules. No more or
> > less. I do not think that making exceptions is a good thing.
> Why not? Why that fundamentalism? Don't you want to leave it to Ana which packages he includes?

Modax and me have talked a bit about the backports (remember we both belong
to the kde team), so he knows a bit what i'm planning and what not.

> >>If not, the idea of using lenny + kde4 will always be a mix of kde3 + 4
> >>with
> > some programs not working or not integrating completely in kde4
> > KDE 4.1 desktop in Lenny is an *additional* and *unofficial* feature which
> > you can use as it is with no support (as in no fixing of Lenny-only
> > issues).
>
> Why do you think it is without support? Of course there is no official support of debian, but Ana kindly responds to that mailinglist.
>

It is without support in the sense we are not providing security updates or
fixes for very important issues as you get in unstable ot stable (and even in
testing).


> > Basically, Lenny will always be like this as you see it now (with
> > regard to software up-to-dateness). Finally, you probably do not want to
> > use Debian stable release anyway. Once Lenny is released, keep using
> > testing ("Squeeze") and it eventually will get the whole KDE 4.x desktop
> > and other KDE 4 applications.
>
> Of course, but I have the feeling that these backports are meant to help testing users to use KDE4 right now before Lenny is released. The backports won't include anything after KDE 4.1.x (so are the plans according to kde4.debian.net), as the backports will be useless once official KDE4-packages appear in testing.
>

I disagree with this. Main purpose of backports is allow users to know what is
going on in KDE 4.1 without breaking their *Stable* systems, and if they like
it, then they might consider switching to testing/unstable when 4.2.x comes.
Actually, users wanting a *seriously* stable system will still stick with 3.5
for a while, that let's remember is still maintained by upstream and in
Debian.
If we have released lenny with kde 4.1 it would have been 4.1.0 all the cycle
and never would have got updated, so the backport solution seemed a better deal
even if we do not continue with 4.2.x


And for the record, i am a "she".

Ana


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Hi,

Modestas Vainius wrote:

(and Lisandro + Ana)

> Hi,
>
> ketvirtadienis 04 Rugsėjis 2008, Ben E. Hard rašė:
>> I know that it is only an additional feature and that Ana doesn't want to
>> provide the "best possible KDE 4.1 desktop experience" in Lenny. But why
>> shouldn't he or somebody else provide a good experience with some more
>> KDE4 programs for Lenny?
>> Why not? Why that fundamentalism? Don't you want to leave it to Ana which
>> packages he includes?
> I'm just expressing my opinion and not objecting to anything (as I'm not
> actually doing backports). Backporting is quite a time consuming job.
> Having an app A backported will rise a question why B or C can't be
> backported. However, Ana has already replied that she is considering
> including yakauke in backports.

I would be willing to do some packaging and to contribute, but I'm afraid to be not of very much help, as I have never done that (besides of building debs for my one. I know there is a lot of information about packaging on the net, but I currently don't have the time either). I didn't want to push anybody to do the packaging, but was just wandering about the policy to only include official kde4 modules. Time is a very good reason not to include much more, especially as there is a lot do in packaging kde-stuff for you folks, I assume.

> These are Lenny backports (so they are more "future stable" backports than
> testing backports). You can be pretty sure that it will take a while until
> KDE 4 migrates to testing after it enters unstable. But backports will
> stay Lenny not Squeeze ones during that period.

I see. Hope that with the release of KDE 4.2 they might migrate to testing.

Thanks,
Ben


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Hi Ana,

first of all sorry for the "he"... Meanwhile I realized my mistake and
apologize for that masculine behaviour of assuming that most of computer
specialists are men... And thanks for your kde-debian-work.

Am Donnerstag 04 September 2008 schrieben Sie:
> On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:39:32AM -0400, Ben E. Hard wrote:
> > Modestas Vainius wrote:

> >
> > I know that it is only an additional feature and that Ana doesn't want to
> > provide the "best possible KDE 4.1 desktop experience" in Lenny. But why
> > shouldn't he or somebody else provide a good experience with some more
> > KDE4 programs for Lenny?
>
> Modax provided you a very good argument about this....
> If you *really* want the best KDE 4.X desktop experience, you should use
> now the experimental packages, help reporting (*) and fixing bugs on those
> packages.

So if I want to report bugs, I should rather use experimental packages (or
keep them, as they haven't yet been replaced by the backport ones) than the
backport ones? I'm not able to fix any bugs, as I'm not a developer, but I do
report bugs. Would it then be the best idea, to switch completely to sid even
before it becomes testing?

> (*) no packaging bugs should go to bugs.kde.org if you want to be helpful
That is one thing, I never really understood: how do I know if a bug is a
packaging bug or one which should be reported upstream? (of course there are
evident ones like missing libaries, but what, if the application crashes for
example?)
>

> >
> > Why not? Why that fundamentalism? Don't you want to leave it to Ana which
> > packages he includes?
>
> Modax and me have talked a bit about the backports (remember we both belong
> to the kde team), so he knows a bit what i'm planning and what not.
>

> >
> > Why do you think it is without support? Of course there is no official
> > support of debian, but Ana kindly responds to that mailinglist.
>
> It is without support in the sense we are not providing security updates or
> fixes for very important issues as you get in unstable ot stable (and even
> in testing).
>

> >
> > Of course, but I have the feeling that these backports are meant to help
> > testing users to use KDE4 right now before Lenny is released. The
> > backports won't include anything after KDE 4.1.x (so are the plans
> > according to kde4.debian.net), as the backports will be useless once
> > official KDE4-packages appear in testing.
>
> I disagree with this. Main purpose of backports is allow users to know what
> is going on in KDE 4.1 without breaking their *Stable* systems, and if they
> like it, then they might consider switching to testing/unstable when 4.2.x
> comes. Actually, users wanting a *seriously* stable system will still stick
> with 3.5 for a while, that let's remember is still maintained by upstream
> and in Debian.
Ok, that makes it all different -- if KDE 4.1 in the backports is more meant to
help people to try it out on a stable system, there is no need to package much
more for them then the official modules. That makes my question above about
which packages I should use if moving completely to KDE 4 obsolete, I think,
as the answer would be to take the experimental ones.

Ben


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Hi!

On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 03:27:00PM -0400, Ben E. Hard wrote:
> I would be willing to do some packaging and to contribute, but I'm afraid to be not of very much help, as I have never done that (besides of building debs for my one. I know there is a lot of information about packaging on the net, but I currently don't have the time either). I didn't want to push anybody to do the packaging, but was just wandering about the policy to only include official kde4 modules. Time is a very good reason not to include much more, especially as there is a lot do in packaging kde-stuff for you folks, I assume.
>

For the record, at least with the 4.1.x series, it is more important helping
in the experimental packages that in the backport, a good handling in the
experimentla packages make it very easy to backport.
Lke 90% of the time is building and testing, and i am afraid I am the only one
who can do that. Unless somebody else *trustable* in the team wants to build
the final releases, but it is not currently the case.

> > These are Lenny backports (so they are more "future stable" backports than
> > testing backports). You can be pretty sure that it will take a while until
> > KDE 4 migrates to testing after it enters unstable. But backports will
> > stay Lenny not Squeeze ones during that period.
>
> I see. Hope that with the release of KDE 4.2 they might migrate to testing.
>
I expect this, but remember when 4.2.x will be migrating to testing, testing
will be "squeeze" and it won't have too much to do with current testing.

Ana


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On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 03:50:02PM -0400, Ben E. Hard wrote:
> Hi Ana,
>
> first of all sorry for the "he"... Meanwhile I realized my mistake and
> apologize for that masculine behaviour of assuming that most of computer
> specialists are men... And thanks for your kde-debian-work.
>

No problem!


> Am Donnerstag 04 September 2008 schrieben Sie:
> > On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:39:32AM -0400, Ben E. Hard wrote:
> > > Modestas Vainius wrote:
>
> > >
> > > I know that it is only an additional feature and that Ana doesn't want to
> > > provide the "best possible KDE 4.1 desktop experience" in Lenny. But why
> > > shouldn't he or somebody else provide a good experience with some more
> > > KDE4 programs for Lenny?
> >
> > Modax provided you a very good argument about this....
> > If you *really* want the best KDE 4.X desktop experience, you should use
> > now the experimental packages, help reporting (*) and fixing bugs on those
> > packages.
>
> So if I want to report bugs, I should rather use experimental packages (or
> keep them, as they haven't yet been replaced by the backport ones) than the
> backport ones? I'm not able to fix any bugs, as I'm not a developer, but I do
> report bugs. Would it then be the best idea, to switch completely to sid even
> before it becomes testing?
>

Yes, please, only report bugs against experimental packages... *if you are using
them*. If you are using backports packages, then when you have a nasty bug ask
in the mailing list.

Mind that the backports are damned to be *behind* the experimental packages,
since they are backport of these packages. This is good because more grave
issues are detected in these packages and fixes are already in the backports
when they are made. But even after backports are made, more grave issues
can be reported and fixed only in experimental. Or how it is the case currently,
experimental contains 4.1.1 and backports are 4.1.0.

In the end of you mail you got this, but i still wanted to expand a bit the
reasons

> > (*) no packaging bugs should go to bugs.kde.org if you want to be helpful
> That is one thing, I never really understood: how do I know if a bug is a
> packaging bug or one which should be reported upstream? (of course there are
> evident ones like missing libaries, but what, if the application crashes for
> example?)

I understand your concern in this, and I agree sometimes it is not easy. So
you have to try applying common sense here, with time hopefully you learn and know
where you have to report it.
In my opinion, crashes (with backtraces [1]), should be sent to upstream that
in this case is at http://bugs.kde.org , because people there is using very
different distros so if the crash is caused by a very specific problem in a
distros, users from another distros will tell you it works for them and you
will have a good argument when reproting the problem in your distro. Sometimes
it is caused by a specific version of a dependecy, and reporting to upstream
also helps.

[1]
http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Debugging/How_to_create_...ful_cra


Ana


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Never heard of it until this thread.

Installed it off Debian experimental. Truly a nice app. The minimalist view is
nicest but want to have tabs available so a thinner design might be nicer. I
am also confused on tabs/sessions/splits. But it all works great.


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