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Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette)

 
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Mike Jones

External


Since: Oct 12, 2008
Posts: 60



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Post subject: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette)
Archived from groups: alt>os>linux>slackware (more info?)

Been reading a bit on people complaining about KDE's "features" and other
similar "What the hell is it doing NOW?" stuff, and I'm thinking that
there is a significant drift toward corporate convenience in Linux distro
development, including Slackware (audience gasps!).

While "improved market share" is obviously helped by providing
installations that have all the clicky-interface controls traditional Win-
D'ohz users have come to expect (due to being trained by M$ software to
expect things to work that way) I have a concern that the "traditional"
ways of doing things are being slowly eroded by this feature-creep.

For example, I spent way longer writing a usbmsd loading script than I
needed to because the HAL system kept getting in the way, and, because I
now don't have a range of devs to manually assign, I'm still expecting
resources to go missing as some automated process steals them before my
scripts can use them.

In "the good old days" we got to write things as we wanted them and they
stayed that way. These days that is becoming a luxury as learning how to
use the software that controls your hardware is replaced by auto-this and
auto-that, which don't always do that brilliant a job, and can take
longer to fix when they barf that simply hacking a plain text config file
would have done doing things "the old way".

I've recently switched back from using Xfce4 (the luxury sports-estate
car of GUIs) to IceWM (the open top kit-car car of GUIs), and having
recently played about with KDE (the Prof-Pat-Pending-mobile of GUIs) I've
noticed a distinct difference in the concepts behind these GUIs, and the
thing that gives me cause for concern is that we appear to be sliding
toward the click-it-for-me world of Win-D'ohz with all this semi-
automation, especially as a lot of it seems to be created and maintained
by coporate development teams that encourage increasing levels of
dependancy on ever more complex software, to do only the same jobs we
were doing a decade ago with much lighter software.

In the 21st Century, one might expect flicker-fast boot ups, and light-
switch responses from software, but no, things appear to be slower on
average, and way more disk-space is used up for tools that should surely
by now have become sleeker and more optimised for what they are supposed
to do.

Am I suffering from classic nostalgia here? Or is there a distinct
presence of corporate "just leave it to us" development replacing the
ingenuity of home-hackers we used to admire so much?

Does everything need to look feel and work like Win-D'ohz to appeal?

Are we being slowly trained to expect "click-me" interfaces by default?

Maybe its time to start up some kind of "Campaign for Real UNIX
\Linux" (CRU\L) or something? Some kind of grass-roots thing that at
least could establish that there IS still a desire on the part of many to
NOT have 5GiB of auto-stuff getting in the way of things that used to
only need about 500MiB to do pretty much the same thing?

Or am I just getting old(er)?

Scuse... The meds nurse is here. Later. Wink

--
*===( http://www.400monkeys.com/God/
*===( http://principiadiscordia.com/
*===( http://www.slackware.com/
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Keith Keller

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Since: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 319



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2009-09-09, Mike Jones <Not.RemoveThis@Arizona.Bay> wrote:
>
> Been reading a bit on people complaining about KDE's "features" and other
> similar "What the hell is it doing NOW?" stuff, and I'm thinking that
> there is a significant drift toward corporate convenience in Linux distro
> development, including Slackware (audience gasps!).
>
> While "improved market share"

If you-know-who shows up, you are hereby banished to using SuSE till the
end of days. It will be a specially configured SuSE that doesn't allow
runlevels 2-4, and doesn't run gettys on tty[1-6]. Wink

> In "the good old days" we got to write things as we wanted them and they
> stayed that way. These days that is becoming a luxury as learning how to
> use the software that controls your hardware is replaced by auto-this and
> auto-that, which don't always do that brilliant a job, and can take
> longer to fix when they barf that simply hacking a plain text config file
> would have done doing things "the old way".

Perhaps. Perhaps I just don't have the right hardware? Most of what I
use (in Slackware) uses a text config file, but I don't have much in the
way of exotic hardware.

> I've recently switched back from using Xfce4 (the luxury sports-estate
> car of GUIs) to IceWM (the open top kit-car car of GUIs), and having
> recently played about with KDE (the Prof-Pat-Pending-mobile of GUIs) I've
> noticed a distinct difference in the concepts behind these GUIs, and the
> thing that gives me cause for concern is that we appear to be sliding
> toward the click-it-for-me world of Win-D'ohz with all this semi-
> automation

IIRC blackbox and/or fluxbox still come with Slackware. [checking...]
Ah, yes, blackbox. Or if you don't like the bundled version, the source
builds fairly easily. Slackware also comes with my second-favorite
terminal emulator for X, rxvt. (I've recently discovered urxvt.) So
you will only slide toward Windohz if you let yourself.

> especially as a lot of it seems to be created and maintained
> by coporate development teams

If the other you-know-who comes back, you will be forced to use his
shell scripts till the end of days.

> Maybe its time to start up some kind of "Campaign for Real UNIX
> \Linux" (CRU\L) or something?

How about "Campaign for Real UNIX Et Linux" (CRUEL)?

> Scuse... The meds nurse is here. Later. Wink

Ask her to bring enough for the entire newsgroup!

--keith

--
kkeller-usenet.RemoveThis@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
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dae3

External


Since: Sep 10, 2009
Posts: 7



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Mike Jones <Not RemoveThis @Arizona.Bay> wrote:

> Maybe its time to start up some kind of "Campaign for Real UNIX
> \Linux" (CRU\L) or something? Some kind of grass-roots thing that at
> least could establish that there IS still a desire on the part of many to
> NOT have 5GiB of auto-stuff getting in the way of things that used to
> only need about 500MiB to do pretty much the same thing?


I'd be among the supporters of such a campaign. Also, should Slackware
become too bloated, I bet another distro - possibly LFS¹ based - would
spring up to fill the niche for those who like their OS to be lean and
speedy.


¹ <http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/>


--
~> cat /etc/*-{version,release}|head -n1 && uname -moprs|fold -sw72
Slackware 12.2.0
Linux 2.6.27.7-crrm i686 AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology MK-36
GNU/Linux
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~kurt

External


Since: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 81



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

dae3 <7252d9cf DeleteThis @example.invalid> wrote:
>
> become too bloated, I bet another distro - possibly LFS¹ based - would
> spring up to fill the niche for those who like their OS to be lean and
> speedy.

I believe pretty much every distro is "From Scratch". The problem is
getting the right team that can make it lean and speedy, yet work on a
large variety of hardware, and supply commonly used applications. Also,
it is nice for the distro to not get too hung up on only supplying
"free" software. For example, many distros will not distribute the Sun
JRE, and opt for the FSF one, which does nothing but give Java a bad
name....

- Kurt
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Keith Keller

External


Since: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 319



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2009-09-10, ~kurt <actinouranium DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> For example, many distros will not distribute the Sun
> JRE, and opt for the FSF one, which does nothing but give Java a bad
> name....

Perhaps that's the goal of the FSF? Wink

--keith

--
kkeller-usenet DeleteThis @wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
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~kurt

External


Since: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 81



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet.DeleteThis@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> On 2009-09-10, ~kurt <actinouranium.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> For example, many distros will not distribute the Sun
>> JRE, and opt for the FSF one, which does nothing but give Java a bad
>> name....
>
> Perhaps that's the goal of the FSF? Wink
>

Those bastards.

- Kurt
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notbob

External


Since: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 359



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2009-09-10, Old Man <bill DeleteThis @witch.lan.invalid> wrote:

> Good luck with that. You might want to browse distrowatch first. You might
> find several lean, basic distributions already available. They'll be based
> on Slackware.

While looking for icewm info, I ran across this Slack spin-off I'd not
seen before:

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=absolute

nb
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Glyn Millington

External


Since: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 65



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Mike Jones <Not DeleteThis @Arizona.Bay> writes:

> For example, I spent way longer writing a usbmsd loading script than I
> needed to because the HAL system kept getting in the way, and, because I
> now don't have a range of devs to manually assign, I'm still expecting
> resources to go missing as some automated process steals them before my
> scripts can use them.

I've brought Slackware back onto my main working machine after a couple
of years with FreeBSD, so may be a bit rusty (but mention it so that
you see I like the old-fashioned way too!) Isn't it possible just to
turn off HAL? - I'm sure that was the case a couple of years ago. And
the samed with udev if you don't like that system?

> In "the good old days" we got to write things as we wanted them and they
> stayed that way. These days that is becoming a luxury as learning how to
> use the software that controls your hardware is replaced by auto-this and
> auto-that, which don't always do that brilliant a job, and can take
> longer to fix when they barf that simply hacking a plain text config file
> would have done doing things "the old way".


Yes, that is certainly true, but the advantage of having learned the old
way is that you know how to do it again - to read the docs, find the
examples, get out your trusty text editor and start work on taking
control and shaping the system/network/world the way you like it. HAL
and udev and the rest have config files somewhere Smile

atb

Glyn
--
RTFM http://www.tldp.org/index.html
GAFC http://slackbook.org/ The Official Source Smile
STFW http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=alt.os.linux.slackware
JFGI http://jfgi.us/
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Peter Chant

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Since: Sep 10, 2009
Posts: 10



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Mike Jones wrote:

>
> Been reading a bit on people complaining about KDE's "features" and other
> similar "What the hell is it doing NOW?" stuff, and I'm thinking that
> there is a significant drift toward corporate convenience in Linux distro
> development, including Slackware (audience gasps!).

I'd rather have a system where everything just works. What wrong with that.

Examples:

Is it not a good idea to have the OS ask if you want USB sticks mounted in
one click when you plug them in, rather than have root mount them for you?

On my eee with Slack 12.2 X just works, including open GL. Fantastic as I'm
having difficulty messing around with two other machines who refuse to play
ball.

Remember when you had to recomile your kernel to get a sound card to work?

Personally I'd rather it all worked automagically leaving me to get on with
doing useful / interesting things. But I would like the option to tweek
where necessary. I think slack has that.

Pete
--
http://www.petezilla.co.uk
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dae3

External


Since: Sep 10, 2009
Posts: 7



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

~kurt <actinouranium.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I believe pretty much every distro is "From Scratch".


Most existing distros are based on some other distro.


--
~> cat /etc/*-{version,release}|head -n1 && uname -moprs|fold -sw72
Slackware 12.2.0
Linux 2.6.27.7-crrm i686 AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology MK-36
GNU/Linux
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Eef Hartman

External


Since: Jul 23, 2009
Posts: 15



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

dae3 wrote:
> Most existing distros are based on some other distro.

Even Slackware is originally based on another distribution <grin>
(SLS - Softlanding Linux System, to be exact, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softlanding_Linux_System ).
--
Eef Hartman, Delft University of Technology, dept. SSC/ICT
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dae3

External


Since: Sep 10, 2009
Posts: 7



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Eef Hartman <E.J.M.Hartman.RemoveThis@tudelft.nl> wrote:

> Even Slackware is originally based on another distribution <grin>


But LFS isn't...


--
~> cat /etc/*-{version,release}|head -n1 && uname -moprs|fold -sw72
Slackware 12.2.0
Linux 2.6.27.7-crrm i686 AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology MK-36
GNU/Linux
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notbob

External


Since: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 359



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2009-09-10, Glyn Millington <wistanswick.DeleteThis@linuxmail.org> wrote:

> Yes, that is certainly true, but the advantage of having learned the old
> way is that you know how to do it again - to read the docs, find the
> examples, get out your trusty text editor and start work on taking
> control and shaping the system/network/world the way you like it. HAL
> and udev and the rest have config files somewhere Smile

Very true, but how does this help the newbie. I got in early so was
forced to learn the ins and outs of basic bash scripting to make
changes. Now, it's not like that. Much of it is now done for me. No
manual mounting. No compiling from source. I feel like I'm using
ubuntu or a mac. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. I like
that mplayer is now included and I don't have to spend time installing
and tweaking it or that my USB stick just mounts. Plus, I still can
roll up my sleeves if need be. I guess if newbs wanna learn from the
ground up, they can always start with BSD.

No, my bitch is not with auto this/that. It's with the bloat and some
of the questionable new apps. I didn't ask for a program to watch
every breath I take. I didn't ask for superfluous eye-candy and
gimcrack bling. I didn't ask for a new pdf viewer slower than the old
and less effective than even the ancient x version. I definitely
didn't ask for a 20% drop in computer speed.

I'll certainly be looking at where it's coming from. KDE, I suspect.
I've always liked KDE, but this is just too much. I just may be able
to get by without that 3rd CD on the next rev. Anyone know a good alt
for Konsole?

nb
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Dan C

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Since: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 232



(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:14:41 +0000, notbob wrote:


> I'll certainly be looking at where it's coming from. KDE, I suspect.
> I've always liked KDE, but this is just too much. I just may be able to
> get by without that 3rd CD on the next rev. Anyone know a good alt for
> Konsole?

Xfce Terminal. Wink


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he garotted another passing Liberal.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
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Michael Black

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Since: Apr 22, 2008
Posts: 37



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Corporate creep in Linux? (mini-rantette) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, dae3 wrote:

> Eef Hartman <E.J.M.Hartman RemoveThis @tudelft.nl> wrote:
>
>> Even Slackware is originally based on another distribution <grin>
>
>
> But LFS isn't...
>
But Linux from Scratch isn't a distribution. It's the steps needed
to build up Linux/GNU from the pool of components that already exists.
It's the way everyone had to operate before whoever came along and made
the first distribution. Unless you want to do the work, you use one
of the distributions, and live with the choices they make for you.

Michael

>
> --
> ~> cat /etc/*-{version,release}|head -n1 && uname -moprs|fold -sw72
> Slackware 12.2.0
> Linux 2.6.27.7-crrm i686 AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology MK-36
> GNU/Linux
>
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