what's with all the talk about "Kara" ?

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:46:38 GMT, deathsabyss.RemoveThis@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar)
wrote:

>This is one situation where I'm going to agree with you. If you know
>how threat mechanics work, then as a healer you shouldn't need to rely
>on a threat meter to know when to or not to heal. Better to be paying
>attention to the screen and seeing whether or not the tank has done a
>thunderclap, or that all the mobs are hitting on the pally tank before
>you cast a big heal rather than looking at a number that's not going
>to tell you the whole story. And of course, a threat meter isn't
>going to tell you if the tank's going to die if you don't cast a heal
>right then, agro be damned. It *might* have some use in letting you
>know that you can cast a big heal earlier than you otherwise might
>think, but really, it's the off tanked mobs that you need to worry
>about agro'ing as a healer, and if there's more than one of them, a
>threat meter is going to be of limited use, unless you're constantly
>switching targets between them (in which case you're not going to be
>seeing when the main target starts a big nasty cast that you might
>want to start casting a big heal to land just after it does unless
>you're also alternating targets between it and the off-tanked mobs
>too.)

Thanks, you explained my thoughts about healers and threat meters much
better than I can

>Though I will contest the perfectly fine part (but then you already
>knew I would right? ; )
>Granted one can't be 100% about alternate possibilities, but if threat
>meters had have been available earlier, it's possibly many more people
>would have been able to progress to Naxx and other such higher level
>content. Maybe. I wasn't in a situation to raid pre-BC (and I don't
>raid all that much now either) so I don't know how many if any of the
>boss fights for that content were particularly sensitive to dps
>levels. Admittedly I never read anything about fights being a dps
>race like I hear Gruul's is.

Might be possible, I never raided at that time so don't know, I just know
that when I was learning to group I just had to learn to control my aggro.
Seems people don't have to learn that any more, but just watch a few bars
on their screen and abuse those of us who prefer to do it the old way.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 60)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)

Hi Moosen <nospam.RemoveThis@buhbye.com>, you wrote
>On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:59:15 +0000, Dale
><abuse.RemoveThis@webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Hi PV, you wrote :
>>
>>>Dale <abuse.RemoveThis@webeye.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>>>We're going into Gruul's Lair this weekend, for a little look around, so
>>>>it will be interesting to see what you're talking about and whether a
>>>>threat meter is really needed or not.
>>>
>>>If you've never been in there before, regardless of experience elsewhere,
>>>you're going to wipe repeatedly and violently just getting the pull down,
>>>so no, threatmeters won't matter. I don't mean that in an insulting
>>>manner - the setup for Maulgar is just insanely stupid until it becomes
>>>easy.
>>>
>>>Pull aggro even for a second on one of the brute ogres, and you'll see why
>>>knowing threat level is a good thing. *
>>
>>If I knew what was about to happen, it would spoil it for me. I love
>>the thought that we're about to enter somewhere we've not seen before,
>>and I expect the repeated wipes - everyone is new to it at some stage so
>>I didn't take it as an insult.
>
>That is purely selfish. Repeated wipes because you're learning a boss
>strat is one thing, dying and quite possibly causing a totally
>unnecessary wipe just because you're too stubborn (stupid? ignorant?
>quite possibly all the above?) to use a threatmeter that could have
>easily kept you alive instead... you are simply a detriment to your
>guild, if that's the case.
>
>'Excitement of uncertainty' is one thing when your ass is the only one
>on the line- it's self-indulgent and outright selfish foolishness if
>an entire raid is depending on you staying alive and not being a
>dipshit.

Only one thing to say here - it's a game. Funny how it's stubborn
(stupid? ignorant?) to not want to use an add-on, yet perfectly
reasonable to expect someone to use something that may spoil their
enjoyment. Double standards?
--
Dale

Don't mail me with "abuse" - use my name instead.

Hi lcpltom, you wrote :

>On Jan 31, 3:21 pm, Dale <ab....DeleteThis@webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

*snipped for brevity - no point repeating my point*

>If you don't want to use threat meters, thats your decision. Your
>guild might not be too happy if you constantly pull aggro and wipe the
>raid, but thats an issue between you and them. Just don't come in
>here and try to BS us with claims that since you know your class so
>well you can play just as good without a threat meter.

I didn't say I know my class so well that I don't need one, I've said
that they aren't as necessary as made out. I'm sure that when we enter
Gruul's Lair in the next few days we'll all make mistakes, whether we
have a threat meter or not, and no matter the experience we have,
because it's a completely new experience. I wouldn't be so arrogant to
think that I could step in there and not have an issue, but the same
goes for the rest of the guild and we like discovering the best way to
do something.
--
Dale

Don't mail me with "abuse" - use my name instead.

I think it was Marcel <marcel.TakeThisOut@marcel.invalid> that wrote something
like...

>On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:22:43 GMT, deathsabyss.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com.au (Ashen
>Shugar) wrote:
>>
>>Heheh, yup, threat meter's only take the fun out of the game if you
>>let em! Trash fights, it shouldn't matter if you steal agro. The
>>tank should be able to taunt the mob back soon enough, and it'll give
>>the tanks threat a boost too, so the other dps can let lose a bit
>>more. The only time you really want to pay *serious* attention to a
>>threat meter is if the mob can't be taunted. Or if you're in a
>>totally anal guild that's going to freak if you pull agro no matter
>>what the situation. ; )
>>
>Taunt gives the tank just enough threat to pull the mob of the person
>who stole aggro.
>Besides that it doesn't really boost and/or create threat.
>It's more like getting attention back from a mob for three seconds in
>which you need to build up aggro asap again.

Not exactly. You get *complete* attention back from the mob after
which you only need to keep in front of everyone else. Now if a mage
got right to the limit of pulling agro them PoM Pyro-critted the mob,
then the tank would get the threat of 5K or whatever damage for the
low low cost of 0 rage if you're a warrior (and taunt wasn't resisted,
but who in their right mind isn't stacking +hit and making that rather
unlikely? And unless we're talking bosses, where the dps is likely to
be more careful, there are still thing's like concussion blow,
hamstring and mocking blow if you're up for stance dancing to keep the
mobs busy while you're waiting for another chance to taunt)
Anyway, while yeah, the mage will still only need another 30% threat
to pull agro again (though that 30% is going to be more real threat
than it was before) all the other dps are going to need a LOT more
real threat to pull agro that they did just seconds ago.

>Biggest downside of loosing aggro to someone in a raid/party is the
>time between loosing the mob and getting it back.
>In that little bit of time especially the ranged people will most
>likely continue to attack increasing their threat as well.

But once you do successfully taunt, it doesn't matter how much threat
you missed out on generating by yourself, as you've stolen all the
threat that the person that pulled agro had generated, which was
obviously more than you were generating. ; )

>And last but not least, mobs can resist taunt as well and it has at
>least 8 sec cooldown (depending on the spec)

Answered that above. Any situation where it's going to be a big deal,
boss fights, heroics, raids, then the dps are likely to be paying more
attention. But in my experience, (that being most stuff up to Kara),
it's not likely to be a serious problem. Lots of places you can get
by without 1 of your dps unless you're already pushing your luck in
being there. And if you're going there with a tank that can't get a
single tauntable mob back before it kills all your dps, then you're
pushing your luck. ; )

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

On Jan 31, 7:27 pm, Dale <ab... DeleteThis @webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi lcpltom, you wrote :
>
> >On Jan 31, 3:21 pm, Dale <ab... DeleteThis @webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> *snipped for brevity - no point repeating my point*
>
> >If you don't want to use threat meters, thats your decision. Your
> >guild might not be too happy if you constantly pull aggro and wipe the
> >raid, but thats an issue between you and them. Just don't come in
> >here and try to BS us with claims that since you know your class so
> >well you can play just as good without a threat meter.
>
> I didn't say I know my class so well that I don't need one, I've said
> that they aren't as necessary as made out. I'm sure that when we enter
> Gruul's Lair in the next few days we'll all make mistakes, whether we
> have a threat meter or not, and no matter the experience we have,
> because it's a completely new experience. I wouldn't be so arrogant to
> think that I could step in there and not have an issue, but the same
> goes for the rest of the guild and we like discovering the best way to
> do something.
> --
> Dale
>
> Don't mail me with "abuse" - use my name instead.

Written by Dale at 4:01 pm on Jan 30:

"While I do use some add-ons (more the cosmetic ones, such as
Bartender3,
Elkbuffbars, X-Perl, just so my screen looks better), I don't have a
damage meter (I'd rather not be more hassle to the healer), threat
meter
(learn to cast correctly, not when a little program says you can) or
sheep monitor (they don't always work and if you grow too used to it,
you'll not be a decent CCer if it doesn't work or a patch buggers it
up
- just check your sheep now and again).

I do believe a little bit more time learning to play a class correctly
would be far more beneficial than growing reliant on add-ons and
wanting
to be the highest DPS in the party - and this goes for all classes,
there are far too many out there that really don't know their class.
It
doesn't make you less of a Mage just because you're 2nd on a damage
meter."

Sure looks like that is what you are claiming right there.

On Feb 1, 8:20 am, Dale <ab... RemoveThis @webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi lcpltom <lcpl... RemoveThis @gmail.com>, you wrote
>
>
>
> >On Jan 31, 7:27 pm, Dale <ab... RemoveThis @webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Hi lcpltom, you wrote :
>
> >> >On Jan 31, 3:21 pm, Dale <ab... RemoveThis @webeye.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> *snipped for brevity - no point repeating my point*
>
> >> >If you don't want to use threat meters, thats your decision. Your
> >> >guild might not be too happy if you constantly pull aggro and wipe the
> >> >raid, but thats an issue between you and them. Just don't come in
> >> >here and try to BS us with claims that since you know your class so
> >> >well you can play just as good without a threat meter.
>
> >> I didn't say I know my class so well that I don't need one, I've said
> >> that they aren't as necessary as made out. I'm sure that when we enter
> >> Gruul's Lair in the next few days we'll all make mistakes, whether we
> >> have a threat meter or not, and no matter the experience we have,
> >> because it's a completely new experience. I wouldn't be so arrogant to
> >> think that I could step in there and not have an issue, but the same
> >> goes for the rest of the guild and we like discovering the best way to
> >> do something.
> >> --
> >> Dale
>
> >> Don't mail me with "abuse" - use my name instead.
>
> >Written by Dale at 4:01 pm on Jan 30:
>
> >"While I do use some add-ons (more the cosmetic ones, such as
> >Bartender3,
> >Elkbuffbars, X-Perl, just so my screen looks better), I don't have a
> >damage meter (I'd rather not be more hassle to the healer), threat
> >meter
> >(learn to cast correctly, not when a little program says you can) or
> >sheep monitor (they don't always work and if you grow too used to it,
> >you'll not be a decent CCer if it doesn't work or a patch buggers it
> >up
> >- just check your sheep now and again).
>
> >I do believe a little bit more time learning to play a class correctly
> >would be far more beneficial than growing reliant on add-ons and
> >wanting
> >to be the highest DPS in the party - and this goes for all classes,
> >there are far too many out there that really don't know their class.
> >It
> >doesn't make you less of a Mage just because you're 2nd on a damage
> >meter."
>
> >Sure looks like that is what you are claiming right there.
>
> The second paragraph you've quoted doesn't say anything about me - it's
> an opinion that could be used for anything. I could say "I do believe a
> little bit more time learning to drive correctly would be far more
> beneficial than the current driving tests used" - doesn't mean I'm an
> excellent driver, it means I have the opinion that learning how to do
> something is beneficial.
>
> The first paragraph you've quoted says I use cosmetic add-ons and the
> reasons why I don't use certain ones, with some factual information,
> i.e. those who aim to be the top of the damage meters generally are more
> hassle for healers, because they generally pull aggro; sheep monitors
> don't always work and add-ons can be effected by patches; and it also
> includes my opinion that I believe a threat meter tells you when you can
> cast and doesn't give you the opportunity to understand why and when to
> cast.
>
> However, as I've already stated, I have comfortably admitted that when
> we go into a new instance, we will wipe because the guild hasn't got the
> experience of the new area (and that includes me). Selective quoting
> won't change that fact.
> --
> Dale
>
> Don't mail me with "abuse" - use my name instead.

Its not selective quoting, as I included more than just the one
sentence indicating you think a threat meter plays the game for you.
If it was selective quoting, I would have included nothing but that
one sentence.

And again you are stating false information. Threat meters don't tell
when you can or can't cast a spell or use a special attack. It gives
you numbers. Most importantly, the numbers of your tank and your own
number. Its up to the player to take that information and based on
experience make a decision as to if they should continue with their
current DPS or if they should cut back somehow. There is nothing in
threat meters telling you to stop casting, or downrank spells, or drop
a spell out of your current rotation. There is nothing in any threat
meter that overrides the commands you are issuing. The threat meter
could indicate that you are on the verge of pulling aggro but there is
nothing to stop you from casting that next nuke and doing it anyway.

All a threat meter does is take readily available information and
displays it for your own decision making purposes. What gets done
with that information is entirely up to the player, not up to the
addon.

Barry Freeman <bazz DeleteThis @nospam.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:03:57 +0000, Catriona R
> <catrionarNOSPAM DeleteThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>So you do use a threat meter, albeit one built into grid?
> >
> >Um, no? Aggro alert isn't the same....
>
> Ok, so it doesn't tell you until you actually get aggro..

Yes, but that's more than enough for a priest.

I have Grid the grid aggro alert sound as a female voice saying "Aggro!".
Whenever I hear that word I instinctively hit Fade.

Although I have Omen installed, I find it useless for my Priest.
Any tank can easily outpace my threat-per-second.

The last fight I recall where I had to watch my healing aggro was Razorgore,
the first boss of Blackwing Lair. With those dozens of mobs roaming around
it was easy to get healing aggro off a stray or newly spawned mob. An threat
meter would have been useless there, too.

--
Zil, Level 70 NE Priest, Aman Shan're, Stormrage Europe

PV <pv+usenet@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Healers need threatmeters MORE than many classes, because it's very easy
> for them to overtake the tank early in the pull, and have to know when it's
> safe to lay down big heals.

I'm afraid I agree with Catriona here. It's obviously easier to pull healing
aggro earlier in the fight, which is why Prayer Of Mending is so handy (giving
the tank the healing aggro). And once you're 2 or 3 seconds into the pull,
assuming you have a reasonably competant tank, it'd be hard for the healer
to out-threat the tank, even if they wanted to.

> A lot of what you're saying seems to come from a lack of understanding how
> the tool works.

Completely the opposite. Because I understad the game mechanics and how a
threat meter works I'd feel perfectly safe as a priest without a threat meter
(not as a dps class though!). As it is, I *do* have Omen, but I can't recall
the last time I needed to check the display.

--
Zil, Level 70 NE Priest, Aman Shan're, Stormrage Europe

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:33:08 +0100, Marcel <marcel RemoveThis @marcel.invalid>
wrote:

>Taunt gives the tank just enough threat to pull the mob of the person
>who stole aggro.

No, it give the tank the SAME threat as the current top of the threat
list.

The tank must do something to increase his threat to pull the mob off
it's current target.

I think it was Barry Freeman <bazz.RemoveThis@nospam.co.uk> that wrote something
like...

>On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:33:08 +0100, Marcel <marcel.RemoveThis@marcel.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Taunt gives the tank just enough threat to pull the mob of the person
>>who stole aggro.
>
>No, it give the tank the SAME threat as the current top of the threat
>list.

Yup.

>The tank must do something to increase his threat to pull the mob off
>it's current target.

Actually, that how it used to be. The taunt debuff would keep the
mobs focused on the taunter until it wore off, then unless they had
managed to get 10% more threat, the mob would go back to who they were
attacking. Not all that long ago it was changed though, so while the
taunt debuff would still force the mob to focus on the taunter for the
duration of the debuff, when the debuff wore off, the taunter would
still be the mobs main focus, and the other people would have reach
the 110% and the 130% thresholds to pull agro off them. Though for a
warrior, it's only taunt that works that way. Mocking blow as I
recall, doesn't actually change your level of threat, just forces the
mob to focus on your for the duration.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

Zil wrote:
> PV <pv+usenet@pobox.com> wrote:
>> Healers need threatmeters MORE than many classes, because it's very easy
>> for them to overtake the tank early in the pull, and have to know when it's
>> safe to lay down big heals.
>
> I'm afraid I agree with Catriona here. It's obviously easier to pull healing
> aggro earlier in the fight, which is why Prayer Of Mending is so handy (giving
> the tank the healing aggro). And once you're 2 or 3 seconds into the pull,
> assuming you have a reasonably competant tank, it'd be hard for the healer
> to out-threat the tank, even if they wanted to.

yep, nice for a priest. Just not for the other 3 healing classes. Who
actually also don't have fade.
Yes, I play a shaman, no earthshield isn't enough on many fights and I
may have to start with big heals right away (robots in Mecha, anyone?).

What about multi mob pulls? It's pretty easy to get healing aggro there.
Especially if you have to stand close to a tank (i.e. 10% aggro range).

Threatmeters allow me to live in about 5-10% more encounters, because
sometimes you can adjust your healing a bit.

Yes, healers don't mostly need threat meters for themselves. But you
need it so the whole group gets a complete overview. You don't want
them, just don't show them.

>> A lot of what you're saying seems to come from a lack of understanding how
>> the tool works.
>
> Completely the opposite. Because I understad the game mechanics and how a
> threat meter works I'd feel perfectly safe as a priest without a threat meter
> (not as a dps class though!). As it is, I *do* have Omen, but I can't recall
> the last time I needed to check the display.

the display isn't important as a healer in general. But I'm pretty happy
about getting messages like "you just crossed 90% of $tanks threat" and
some drums added to it.


Also, on fights we're pretty much outgearing I dps a bit, so I'll
certainly can use it there.

Urs

--
Mano - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Jewelcrafter
Myno - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
Ratoma- Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
Melony - Human Mage 16
and various others

Barry Freeman <bazz RemoveThis @nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> The tank must do something to increase his threat to pull the mob off
> it's current target.

And against dots this could be a pain in the ass...
--
Candido

gerryq wrote:
> On Jan 31, 6:20 pm, chocolatemalt <myothern... RemoveThis @dim.com.removethis>
> wrote:
>> In article <dM1aPICnsdoHF... RemoveThis @dont.spam.me>,
>
>> You can get away without threat meters in 5-mans, heroics, and even
>> Karazhan for the most part. But you won't get any further than that.
>> Maybe that's fine for your guild, but for those who are more ambitious
>> about seeing game content there really isn't a choice about it.
>>
>> From Gruul (and Maul'gar even) onwards you can no longer tolerate DPS
>> classes doing 400 DPS or less, because your tanks and healers won't make
>> it or the boss will hit that 10-minute enrage counter with 30% health
>> left and you've hit your brick wall. It's not hard for the DPS'ers to
>> get their gear, skills, and raiding talents together to ensure they're
>> in the 600-1200 DPS range but now you most definitely need a threat
>> meter.
>
> Well, our guild have just got past Maulgar, and to be frank I don't
> think threat was ever that much of an issue on him or his adds.. On
> Gruul, as I understand it (we haven't killed him yet), there are two
> or more tanks, and then threat has to be considered. So far though, I
> think we mostly have to learn how to survive.
>
> There are too many variables -- a rogue might have a certain DPS
>> most times, but now he's fully raid-buffed with Kings, Might, GotW, etc,
>> the boss might have high or low armor, there might be a melee-enhanced
>> Hunter's Mark, improved warrior Bleeds, he may be sharing a group with a
>> Battle Shouting warrior, 5% crit feral druid, and totem-happy shaman,
>> and now that rogue has INSANE DPS. Which is great, but the threat meter
>> is absolutely mandatory now.
>
> But the rogue knows what buffs he's got in advance.

really? He knows when Windfury will proc? And crits? and UR from the
shaman? And he just used his trinket. And the other one procs?

all in the same 2sec?

Urs

--
Mano - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Jewelcrafter
Myno - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
Ratoma- Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
Melony - Human Mage 16
and various others