[M:tA] How do you handle Time-Magick?

There was a really long argument between me and most of the rest of the
forum related to this topic. See if you can google for it.

William

Daniel wrote:

> Well I have a problem with the guy who's playing a Cultist: He really
> likes his Time-effects ... but I don't. ;c)
>
> As I'm starting a detective/research-based adventure on Sunday, I have
> to cope with the player's Time sphere ... definately the most annoying
> one: you constantly have to think of new excuses why the player is "just
> in this case" not able to use his Time-sense to look into the past to
> see who's the killer/where he hides his notes/who was in the room etc.
>
> You get the idea ...
>
> So how do you handle it?
>

Daniel wrote:

> Well I have a problem with the guy who's playing a Cultist: He really
> likes his Time-effects ... but I don't. ;c)
>
> As I'm starting a detective/research-based adventure on Sunday, I have
> to cope with the player's Time sphere ... definately the most annoying
> one: you constantly have to think of new excuses why the player is "just
> in this case" not able to use his Time-sense to look into the past to
> see who's the killer/where he hides his notes/who was in the room etc.
>
> You get the idea ...
>
> So how do you handle it?
>


Ok, a few practical suggestions:

Mages will interpret the past and future according to their own
expectations and perceptions of what they are. Two mages scrying the
exact same event may get very different views because they focus on
different things and interpret what they see differently.

The future is uncertain. Why it is uncertain is a matter of philosphical
debate, but for practical purposes predictions can be precise or
accurate, not both. You can improve this for important events by
including entropy (destiny).

William

In article <c399tr$5ke$06$1@news.t-online.com>, Daniel
<daniel.DeleteThis@burningcrow.de> wrote:

> You get the idea ...
>
> So how do you handle it?

Maybe you need to increase the importance of questions other than
"Whodunnit?" and "Howdunnit?"

Questions like "Where is the killer now?", "Why'd they do it?", "How on
Earth did you see the victim walking down the street yesterday when I
just scryed their death over a month in the past?"

--
Tyler

tfdion at syr dot edu

Daniel wrote:

> Well I have a problem with the guy who's playing a Cultist: He really
> likes his Time-effects ... but I don't. ;c)

> As I'm starting a detective/research-based adventure on Sunday, I have
> to cope with the player's Time sphere ... definately the most annoying
> one: you constantly have to think of new excuses why the player is "just
> in this case" not able to use his Time-sense to look into the past to
> see who's the killer/where he hides his notes/who was in the room etc.

> You get the idea ...

> So how do you handle it?

I, um...

I let the player use the powers they spent their Goddamn XP on, is what
I do. Mages with Time magic make really, really good detectives.
Making constant excuses about why this time you can't use your magic to
solve the mystery is a lot like making excuses why this time, no, you
can't use your five dots of Firearms during the firefight. Jesus. This
should be in GMing 101.

The solution is to center your adventures around things the PCs can't
easily solve, or to introduce complications. For instance, looking back
in time to see who the murderer was is fine... but what if you find out
that the murderer was the wife of one of the other PCs, specifically the
one with whom your PC has been having an affair?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

On 2004-03-17 12:15:23 +0100, Julie d'Aubigny
<kali.magdalene.DeleteThis@comcast.net> said:

> Viewing the past and future really shouldn't be like a movie. It should
> grant visions and impressions - like psychometry and precognition - but
> not a flawless recreation of events.

Well the problem is finding the right gradation of power in the Time
sphere (one point <-> five points) and also the possibilities Time
gives you comparing it to the other spheres ...

--
"I believe there's a cat in a box somewhere

who's alive and dead at the same time

(although if they don't ever open the box to feed it

it'll eventually just be two different kinds of dead) ..."

On 2004-03-17 16:19:36 +0100, William <wilit0613.RemoveThis@postoffice.uri.edu> said:

> but for practical purposes predictions can be precise or accurate, not both

So you say, there's some kind of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in
Magickal predictions? Or how do you determine the difference between
precision and accuracy?

Nice idea ... as I'm playing with a group that mainly consists of
physicists ... they will have a lot of fun (and discussion) about how
physical theory and magickal practice mix ... ;c)

--
"I believe there's a cat in a box somewhere

who's alive and dead at the same time

(although if they don't ever open the box to feed it

it'll eventually just be two different kinds of dead) ..."

daniel.DeleteThis@burningcrow.de postulated:

:: So you say, there's some kind of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle
:: in Magickal predictions? Or how do you determine the difference
:: between precision and accuracy?

Naturally, Heisenberg comes into this quite naturally. Mage is a game about
consensus reality, therefore, the mage's perceptions and expectations will,
undoubtedly have some kind of influence in looking into the past and
especially looking into the future. Naturally, you can have great fun with
the whole idea of self-fulfilling prophecies and the matter of desire
getting in the way. Also, be mindful of the wording of any questions the
players pose when doing this. If their question is "when" the answer will
invariably be "probably never" or "soon" - nice and vague. If their question
can be answered with a yes or a no, answer with a maybe. If the question is
"who", make vague impressions that points to maybe one or two people, but be
mindful of the players preconcieved ideas of who they already suspect. If
they already thing that they know who the guilty party is in a deed and they
look back to seek verification and confirmation, they may recieve it, even
though it may be inaccurate. Of course, there should be clear details in
there that do not belong to him/her that *should* alert the player to an
inconsistency, but let's see how quickly they ignore those and doggedly
persue the wrong person!

:: Nice idea ... as I'm playing with a group that mainly consists of
:: physicists ... they will have a lot of fun (and discussion) about how
:: physical theory and magickal practice mix ... ;c)

We had a great time in one game where the GM was quick thinking enough on
his toes to accommodate our expectations for the game in which Time played a
massive (and headache) of a factor. A presence we'd detected in an early
scene ended up being ourselves in a very, very clever and quick-thinking
moment. Of course, we were well-behaved players and went along with it to
create a good story, not trying to screw things over too much... also
mindful that if we did actually try to meet ourselves he'd probably hit us
with more Paradox than several lifetimes could hold. We spent a good few
hours at the end of the story trying to follow the timelines we'd crossed
and whether or not we'd just written ourselves out of history and whether we
would even remember the story, crossed with whether there were now two
copies of ourselves floating around...

Nimrod...

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:39:55 +0100, Daniel <daniel.DeleteThis@burningcrow.de>
wrote:

>Well I have a problem with the guy who's playing a Cultist: He really
>likes his Time-effects ... but I don't. ;c)
>
>As I'm starting a detective/research-based adventure on Sunday, I have
>to cope with the player's Time sphere ... definately the most annoying
>one: you constantly have to think of new excuses why the player is
>"just in this case" not able to use his Time-sense to look into the
>past to see who's the killer/where he hides his notes/who was in the
>room etc.

Don't do that. Give him a vision of the past every time he
asks for one. But bear in mind that you control what he actually
sees.

>
>You get the idea ...
>
>So how do you handle it?

Don't make it simple. So he sees the killer. Does he know
the killer? Does he know where the killer is hiding? Was the
killer wearing a disguise? Was the killer hired or manipulated
by someone else? What was the killer's employer after?
Where is that thing anyway? Was he really the killer, or
was the victim shot in the back with a long range rifle
while the "killer" threatenened him with a pistol?
Was the killer actually acting in self defense
because the victim was using magic to cause a heart attack?
Can you even see the means the killer used to kill
his victim?

Daniel wrote:

> You get the idea ...

> So how do you handle it?

Off the top of my head, play with perspective. Let the player have a
vision of the murder, but let him see it from the killer's eyes, or
perhaps the victim's. If the victim never got a good look at his
killer, the player will have to run off of other clues. Likewise with
seeing it through the killer's eyes. He can see what happened, but he
can't control where he looks or how long his vision stays focused on one
thing.
If he gets only one or two successes, make it fuzzy. Make it dark.
Maybe the vision is seen in negative light (black is white, etc?).
Maybe he only gets one or two senses. No sound can do a lot to keep a
player guessing. Conversely, letting him hear things but adding some
odd noises to the vision can help throw him off.
Another good idea might be to roll the dice yourself behind a screen
of some sort. If the player botches he may well see things that never
happened at all, and the player would not know of the inaccuracies.

Also, pick a constant "flavour" for the visions. ie: if he sees
things through the killer's eyes, have him *always* see things through
the killer's eyes. Pick a theme for the visions, something that gives a
reasonable amount of information but doesn't give away the answer he's
looking for. Try to fit this theme into the player's paradigm if you
can, but if you can't just concentrate on being consistent.

Stephenls also had some good ideas. Make the plot twists complicated,
so even if the player does get the answer he wants in a hat trick, maybe
he's not so happy with the answer he got. After all, the players are
trying to solve the mystery, so sooner or later, one way or another,
they will find the answer. When they do, it shouldn't be a simple
matter of pushing the red button and everything's fine. Half the fun is
getting there, the other half is fixing it once you know.

As far as looking into the future, well, it's a common belief, even
among Mages, that the future Hasn't Happened Yet. Whatever they may see
or "know" about events to come, remember that a mage's power is rooted
in themes of Free Will and Choice. Visions of the future may warn the
players off a dangerous course or hint at things to come, but those
things can always change after the vision has been seen. Sometimes for
the worse. If you get really creative, looking into the future in
itself may end up making things come true. Good old self-fulfilling
prophesy.

William wrote:
> There was a really long argument between me and most of the rest of the
> forum related to this topic. See if you can google for it.

That thread was remarkably dumb.

--
J. H. Frank

On 2004-03-18 05:05:28 +0100, Stephen Williams
<steve1.williams RemoveThis @sympatico.ca> said:

> Off the top of my head, play with perspective. Let the player have a
> vision of the murder, but let him see it from the killer's eyes, or
> perhaps the victim's. If the victim never got a good look at his
> killer, the player will have to run off of other clues. Likewise with
> seeing it through the killer's eyes. He can see what happened, but he
> can't control where he looks or how long his vision stays focused on one
> thing.
> If he gets only one or two successes, make it fuzzy. Make it dark.
> Maybe the vision is seen in negative light (black is white, etc?).
> Maybe he only gets one or two senses. No sound can do a lot to keep a
> player guessing. Conversely, letting him hear things but adding some
> odd noises to the vision can help throw him off.
> Another good idea might be to roll the dice yourself behind a screen
> of some sort. If the player botches he may well see things that never
> happened at all, and the player would not know of the inaccuracies.
>
> Also, pick a constant "flavour" for the visions. ie: if he sees
> things through the killer's eyes, have him *always* see things through
> the killer's eyes. Pick a theme for the visions, something that gives a
> reasonable amount of information but doesn't give away the answer he's
> looking for. Try to fit this theme into the player's paradigm if you
> can, but if you can't just concentrate on being consistent.
>
> Stephenls also had some good ideas. Make the plot twists complicated,
> so even if the player does get the answer he wants in a hat trick, maybe
> he's not so happy with the answer he got. After all, the players are
> trying to solve the mystery, so sooner or later, one way or another,
> they will find the answer. When they do, it shouldn't be a simple
> matter of pushing the red button and everything's fine. Half the fun is
> getting there, the other half is fixing it once you know.
>
> As far as looking into the future, well, it's a common belief, even
> among Mages, that the future Hasn't Happened Yet. Whatever they may see
> or "know" about events to come, remember that a mage's power is rooted
> in themes of Free Will and Choice. Visions of the future may warn the
> players off a dangerous course or hint at things to come, but those
> things can always change after the vision has been seen. Sometimes for
> the worse. If you get really creative, looking into the future in
> itself may end up making things come true. Good old self-fulfilling
> prophesy.

Greate ideas in here. Especially the idea of flavoring the visions is a
thing that hasn'e come to my mind before (damn, I'm so stupid ;c) but
will make a lot of things easier.

Thanks to all of you!