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Since: Feb 06, 2006 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:32 am
Post subject: A question on magic (Defensively) Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>misc (more info?)
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I have just been playing a few weeks and have fallen in love with the
game. I have searched the different pages for information and found
quite a bit.
I am curious about defensive magic. Which spells are best and what are
the groups recomendations. I lost a fairly promising dsco in the Elven
Halls mostly because I ran out of mana. * I got overconfident and got
in over my head, no mana = dead co *
I was almost exclusively conjuration/earth/fire. The only defence I had
was stoneskin and while it helped, it was lacking. I was working of the
theory that if they are dead they can't hurt you, and it seemed to be
doing ok, but I was probably only into late mid game.
I am looking to see what general rules or favorite things you folks try
to give you some defence.
Thanks |
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Since: Nov 13, 2005 Posts: 16
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:28 pm
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Chris Morris wrote:
> "Rich63125" <HRICH1066.RemoveThis@YAHOO.COM> writes:
> > I am looking to see what general rules or favorite things you folks try
> > to give you some defence.
>
> Repel Missiles (Deflect Missiles if you can get it)
> Ozocubu's Armour is a bit more effective than Stoneskin
Note that Ozocubu's Armour is only usable when using Light armor
(robes, leather, hides, swamp/mottled dragon armour). Stoneskin works
regardless of what armor you're wearing (which is why it gives so much
less AC than Oz's Armour).
> Detect Creatures/Traps and Magic Mapping to pick your fights better
I'm not much of a fan of Magic Mapping except in cases where you need
to cast it a lot (Hells), and even then only if you have access to
Selective Amnesia to reclaim the spell slots afterwards. Detect Traps
is extremely good, and Detect Creatures is pretty useful too.
> Blink (Controlled Blink if you can get it) to escape
This is key. Very powerful defense for emergencies.
> Forescry is very nice if you can stand the investment in Divinations
> it needs.
Generally speaking, for a conjuror-type, Deflect Missiles +
Controlled/Blink is plenty. Forescry doesn't really add anything much
to it, but hey, if you've already got the Divination/Spellcasting to
use it, and haven't got anything better to learn...
> Mephitic Cloud and Conjure Flame are useful for running away.
Mephitic Cloud is very key early in the game when you have many
powerful spellcasters (orc/elf spellcasters).
Conjure Flame is also an excellent way to kill Hydras, since they
aren't afraid of fire (which means you can lay it down in front of them
and they'll walk right into it). It's also a great way to kill undead.
> Tomb of Doroklohe is apparently amazing but I've never got far enough
> with an Earth user to learn it.
Tomb of Doroklohe + Dig/Passwall makes you very nearly unstoppable as a
conjuror if you can cast ToD reliably.
> These are mostly Ice/Air spells (or non-elemental), so not the easiest
> for a Fire/Earth conjurer to learn.
I'd add the following defensive spells to the list:
Swiftness. For making a quick getaway in areas where you cannot
control blink (Elf 7, Snake 5, Slime 6, The Abyss, The Tomb), and has
some generic "run-away-goodness" all on its lonesome.
Insulation. Handy if you've found no sources of electrical resistance
by the time you hit the Vaults.
Haste. Faster turns = run away faster / kill things faster.
Abjuration. This spell is extremely useful when you encounter enemies
that summon other enemies that summon other enemies...
Jim |
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Since: Aug 15, 2005 Posts: 198
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:21 pm
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Rich63125" <HRICH1066.DeleteThis@YAHOO.COM> writes:
> I am looking to see what general rules or favorite things you folks try
> to give you some defence.
Repel Missiles (Deflect Missiles if you can get it)
Ozocubu's Armour is a bit more effective than Stoneskin
Detect Creatures/Traps and Magic Mapping to pick your fights better
Blink (Controlled Blink if you can get it) to escape
Forescry is very nice if you can stand the investment in Divinations
it needs.
Mephitic Cloud and Conjure Flame are useful for running away.
Tomb of Doroklohe is apparently amazing but I've never got far enough
with an Earth user to learn it.
These are mostly Ice/Air spells (or non-elemental), so not the easiest
for a Fire/Earth conjurer to learn.
--
Chris |
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Since: Oct 13, 2005 Posts: 284
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jim Tran wrote:
> Chris Morris wrote:
> > "Rich63125" <HRICH1066.TakeThisOut@YAHOO.COM> writes:
>> [list of defensive spells]
> [supplementary list of defensive spells]
Very little left to add, but I'll try. Dig is surprisingly good if
you're already doing Earth anyway. Can change "nowhere to run" into
"somewhere to run" in a hurry... and is yet another quick fix for
characters addicted to controlled blink who can't control blinking at
the moment.
Speaking of which, characters who can cast controlled blink can usually
cast teleportation as well. Occasionally worth the slots (not often,
but it happens).
e. |
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Since: Aug 15, 2005 Posts: 198
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:43 am
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Jim Tran" <dsrealms RemoveThis @yahoo.com> writes:
> Chris Morris wrote:
> > "Rich63125" <HRICH1066 RemoveThis @YAHOO.COM> writes:
> > > I am looking to see what general rules or favorite things you folks try
> > > to give you some defence.
> >
> > Repel Missiles (Deflect Missiles if you can get it)
> > Ozocubu's Armour is a bit more effective than Stoneskin
>
> Note that Ozocubu's Armour is only usable when using Light armor
> (robes, leather, hides, swamp/mottled dragon armour).
Elven ring/scale/chain too?
> Stoneskin works regardless of what armor you're wearing (which is
> why it gives so much less AC than Oz's Armour).
True, though this is unlikely to be an issue except for very powerful
crusaders/reavers.
> > Detect Creatures/Traps and Magic Mapping to pick your fights better
>
> I'm not much of a fan of Magic Mapping except in cases where you need
> to cast it a lot (Hells), and even then only if you have access to
> Selective Amnesia to reclaim the spell slots afterwards. Detect Traps
> is extremely good, and Detect Creatures is pretty useful too.
I'll agree that unless you have slots to spare, one of the many
swappable "sense surroundings" randarts is probably far more useful.
--
Chris |
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Since: Jan 27, 2006 Posts: 33
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:30 am
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I''ll speak up for Magic Map here. Detect Creatures is great, but I
find knowing the geography is great for finding the best angle of
attack and so on. I've only played DEs for conjurers. In their case
spell slots weren't a problem. I had extra anyway. Plus I didn't go
crazy with it so my divinations didn't go up that high.
In any event, just keeping Oz's Armour and Deflect Missiles going was
enough of a PITA and they did the job. With a hefty investment in
Enchantments you don't need all that much in Air and Ice skill to make
them reliable. Carrying a staff of enchantment in your b slot is an
option. |
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Since: Oct 13, 2005 Posts: 284
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:52 am
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dave Hartwick wrote:
> I''ll speak up for Magic Map here. Detect Creatures is great, but I
> find knowing the geography is great for finding the best angle of
> attack and so on. I've only played DEs for conjurers. In their case
> spell slots weren't a problem. I had extra anyway. Plus I didn't go
> crazy with it so my divinations didn't go up that high.
>
> In any event, just keeping Oz's Armour and Deflect Missiles going was
> enough of a PITA and they did the job. With a hefty investment in
> Enchantments you don't need all that much in Air and Ice skill to make
> them reliable. Carrying a staff of enchantment in your b slot is an
> option.
I've never been much of a fan of Oz on conjurers. (On fighter-mages of
all stripes I love it.) Seems like three MP and a turn (and three
slots... I have more slot problems with conjurers than you do, though)
spent gaining a small defense boost when I could spend those on blowing
the opposition away before they hurt me. Considering that IME conjurers
tend to die to acting one turn too late or having a few too few MP, it
doesn't feel effective to me.
e. |
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Since: Jan 27, 2006 Posts: 33
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Erik Piper wrote:
> I've never been much of a fan of Oz on conjurers. (On fighter-mages of
> all stripes I love it.) Seems like three MP and a turn (and three
> slots... I have more slot problems with conjurers than you do, though)
> spent gaining a small defense boost when I could spend those on blowing
> the opposition away before they hurt me. Considering that IME conjurers
> tend to die to acting one turn too late or having a few too few MP, it
> doesn't feel effective to me.
>
> e.
Oz's was just habit, really. After paring away all the spells I thought
I could carry in Zot I had Oz and Repel left. I could live with them.
They lasted and had appreciable effect.
Oh, and another nice defensive spell is Regeneration, if you can fit
necromancy in. |
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Since: Oct 13, 2005 Posts: 284
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dave Hartwick wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
> > I've never been much of a fan of Oz on conjurers. (On fighter-mages of
> > all stripes I love it.) Seems like three MP and a turn (and three
> > slots... I have more slot problems with conjurers than you do, though)
> > spent gaining a small defense boost when I could spend those on blowing
> > the opposition away before they hurt me. Considering that IME conjurers
> > tend to die to acting one turn too late or having a few too few MP, it
> > doesn't feel effective to me.
> >
> > e.
>
> Oz's was just habit, really. After paring away all the spells I thought
> I could carry in Zot I had Oz and Repel left. I could live with them.
> They lasted and had appreciable effect.
Repel is nice for its low cost and slot cost -- sometimes I even keep
it alongside Deflect. But I prefer to have Deflect, both the ability to
cast it and, if I have to choose, the slots needed to hold it.
> Oh, and another nice defensive spell is Regeneration, if you can fit
> necromancy in.
Regeneration is golden for Cocytus, Tartarus, and the Tomb, and isn't
half bad in other places where you'd also prefer to heal in a hurry
(e.g. Pan). It really is nice.
e. |
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Since: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 325
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:03 pm
Post subject: Re: A question on magic (Defensively) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Erik Piper wrote:
> I've never been much of a fan of Oz on conjurers. (On fighter-mages of
> all stripes I love it.) Seems like three MP and a turn (and three
> slots... I have more slot problems with conjurers than you do, though)
> spent gaining a small defense boost when I could spend those on blowing
> the opposition away before they hurt me. Considering that IME conjurers
> tend to die to acting one turn too late or having a few too few MP, it
> doesn't feel effective to me.
When descending into unknown territory (or known-bad territory) with my
latest ice-conjurer, I do Oz -> wait (or channel energy) -> pray ->
descend. This does mitigate the getting-hit-on-stair-descent problem for
poor puny DECjs, and wastes some food but no turns-in-combat. |
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