How do you kill a dragon in GURPS?

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:48:44 -0600, John <reply RemoveThis @newsgroup.please.com>
wrote:

>Background: I played AD&D from about 1978 to 1985, then Real Life came
>along and I quit. Later I started buying and reading GURPS books, but
>never had time to actually play. Now my sons are interested in RPGing
>the "old-fashioned way" (without a computer *g*) and I've got them
>started playing in my old D&D world but now using GURPS rules.
>
>One thing that always bothered me about D&D was the HP escalation as
>characters went up in level, to where they could fight really tough
>monsters as equals and could laugh at lesser foes. In general, I like
>the way damage works in GURPS much better. But I wonder, just how do
>heroes in a GURPS game (say on Yrth for example) ever manage to defeat
>really tough critters such as dragons?

Well for a start we can assume that heroes who are ready to take on
dragons have potent enchantments on their gear. A dragon slaying
knight would have something like +4 plate armour, and a +4 sword. Now
if we look at the "Young Dragon" in 4e, she has 6 DR and doles out
5d-1 cutting damage with her claws. Sir George with a ST of, say 15,
would dole out 2d would dole out, say 2d+6 damage but has a DR of
something like 10. So George is doing an average of 11 points of
damage per strike delivered and taking an average of 6 points of
damage per claw attack. Miss Drake has 25 hit points and George has
15. Miss Drake has an extra attack, but, and this is important,
George has an enchanted shield to block with. If George can beard the
dragon in her den, he has a good chance of victory. If she's out
hunting at night in the air, George has a serious problem.

John <reply.RemoveThis@newsgroup.please.com> wrote:

> But I wonder, just how do
> heroes in a GURPS game (say on Yrth for example) ever manage to defeat
> really tough critters such as dragons? It just seems to me that any
> warrior going up against a dragon (or other monster of similar power)
> is just going to be toast, since he does not have the D&D-style HPs to
> soak up the damage the monster is going to be hitting him with.

Well, a frontal assault is suicide, so they'd need to use tricks or
magic. Magic weapons and armour at the very least. But that goes well
with great heroes fighting dragons.

> Have any of y'all ever played out battles of this kind? How does it
> go? Does a GURPS game require that you bring a whole army (and lose a
> lot of men) to fight a dragon? Can a single hero ever be a
> dragon-slayer in GURPS? Or are dragons best left to the powerful
> wizards to defeat with magic rather than weapons?

I've never done a fight like this, but I think a sufficiently powerful
hero with the right equipment and a good brain could do it. Some ideas
for equipment that would come in handy:

A shield that protects against fire.

A "dragonslayer" weapon that gives some outrageous bonuses against
dragons, but not against smaller monsters. Or perhaps some exotic
kind of lance that is just not very practical against smaller targets?

Something (powder? spell? scroll? amulet?) that reduces some of the
dragon's abilities or gives some additional protection. Doesn't the
wizard's apprentice in the movie _Dragonslayer_ use something like
this? (It's been ages since I've seen that film.)

A ballista. (The dragon hunter in the movie _Dragonheart_ uses one.)

Some tricks that might work:

Sneak up on him while he sleeps.

Hide behind a rock or in a hole along a path he regularly takes (or
lure him there), and when walks past, stab him in his much softer
belly.

> Just trying to picture how these kinds of battles should go, as the
> boys' characters become more powerful and face bigger challenges. (It
> doesn't have to be dragons, it seems to me that a small band of heroes
> are going to have trouble with any powerful monster.)

Just very big monsters, like an ogre or something, should be doable with
sufficient skill, smart fighting, and perhaps a few magical items. Bigger
monsters, like giants, dragons, demon lords or what have you, invariably
require some preparation, magical assistance and/or a clever trick.


mcv.
--
"Serenity is a very personal work with political resonance and a
heartfelt message about the human condition and stuff blowing up.
'Cause let's face it, nobody cares about that 'human condition'
stuff... in fact if you notice it, try to keep it to yourself."
-- Joss Whedon on his new film

Well, it depends on the dragon of course. There are a few in my version
of Yrth that I wouldn't go up against with thermonuclear weapons (mostly
because they would never be there when you dropped them and would then
arrange to have you edited out of history) but for the average beasty my
advice would be

soften them up with ranged weapons and magic
have magical protection against their flame or other ranged attack
don't try it alone
and if at all possible use a smuggled in ground-to-air missile....

That said two of the PCs in one of my games not only got to slay a
dragon with mostly mundane, low-tech weapons but bathed in its blood
afterwards gaining a level of toughness and bright red skins...
--
Michael Cule

Michael Cule <mikec RemoveThis @room3b.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Well, it depends on the dragon of course. There are a few in my version
> of Yrth that I wouldn't go up against with thermonuclear weapons (mostly
> because they would never be there when you dropped them and would then
> arrange to have you edited out of history)

Sounds like the Shadowrun/Earthdawn kind of dragon. Those aren't dragons
any mortal would want to meddle with.


mcv.
--
"Serenity is a very personal work with political resonance and a
heartfelt message about the human condition and stuff blowing up.
'Cause let's face it, nobody cares about that 'human condition'
stuff... in fact if you notice it, try to keep it to yourself."
-- Joss Whedon on his new film

John schrieb:
-snip
>Have any of y'all ever played out battles of this kind? How does it
> go? Does a GURPS game require that you bring a whole army (and lose a
> lot of men) to fight a dragon? Can a single hero ever be a
> dragon-slayer in GURPS? Or are dragons best left to the powerful
> wizards to defeat with magic rather than weapons?
-snip

I would say it depends on the game world.

In (or on?) Technomancer, there are enough guns, spells, guns, missiles,
guns, magic items, guns and what-have-you that a single, highly skilled
character maybe could kill a dragon.

In low-tech settings, you need a good plan and a few tough heroes,
including some mages.

Or try dirty tricks. Simply poisoning his food probably won't work
unless the dragon is rather dumb (big chance, eh?), but the avarage
player group will come up with some interesting and mean ideas.

E.G., if you find a good enchanter who know the right spells, a variant
of the poisoned food trick could work. Take a living sheep or cow and
"anchor" something like explosive fireball on it - with the limitation
"only goes of after the target is swallowd by a dragon".

Bye
Ingo

In article <43A56E12.7A52A385 RemoveThis @web.de>,
Ingo Siekmann <Ingo-Siekmann RemoveThis @web.de> wrote:
>John schrieb:

>
>Or try dirty tricks. Simply poisoning his food probably won't work
>unless the dragon is rather dumb (big chance, eh?), but the avarage
>player group will come up with some interesting and mean ideas.

Depends on how convincing you are. In a book I'd read long ago, once
character gave another one a muffin baked with dragonsbane, and convinced
him that eating the muffin would guarantee the dragon's defeat. So he ate
the muffin, walked up to the dragon, and the dragon ate him, and then died
from the poison.


--
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-- Gene Spafford, 1992

"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen.RemoveThis@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> schrieb

> Depends on how convincing you are. In a book I'd read long ago, once
> character gave another one a muffin baked with dragonsbane, and convinced
> him that eating the muffin would guarantee the dragon's defeat. So he ate
> the muffin, walked up to the dragon, and the dragon ate him, and then died
> from the poison.

IIRC, poisoning the halfling and send him to the dragon (as food) was the
proposed method of using a halfling in "Munchkins guide to powergaming"

Flo

"Gregory L. Hansen" schrieb:
-snip
> Depends on how convincing you are. In a book I'd read long ago, once
> character gave another one a muffin baked with dragonsbane, and convinced
> him that eating the muffin would guarantee the dragon's defeat. So he ate
> the muffin, walked up to the dragon, and the dragon ate him, and then died
> from the poison.
-snip

Oh... I like that. I really like that.
Do you know title/ author of the book?

Bye
Ingo

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:48:44 -0600, John <reply.DeleteThis@newsgroup.please.com>
wrote:

[...]
>Have any of y'all ever played out battles of this kind? How does it
>go? Does a GURPS game require that you bring a whole army (and lose a
>lot of men) to fight a dragon? Can a single hero ever be a
>dragon-slayer in GURPS? Or are dragons best left to the powerful
>wizards to defeat with magic rather than weapons?

I must admit I have NO idea of what dragons are in GURPS Fantasy 4th
ed.

But, reasoning with my own brain, I came up with the following:

- If dragons are feared, there should be a reason! NEVER let it be
easy!

- Dragons are BIG? If so, hitting their head should be quite easy,
forcing stunning rolls, better critical hits, etc.
But maybe nature (GM) has provided higher DR to the head!

- I suggest, first of all, a GOOD battle plan. Maybe a roll or two in
a skill that suggest habits, weaknesses, etc. of any species of
"really nasty monster" your character are trying to kill/capture.
Maybe a roll on any medic skill could suggest where to strike.

- Ranged fighting is always safer. Less heroic? Maybe, but ranged
fighting has the disadvantage you can't aim your sword for the heart
of the dragon.

- Maybe it should be safe to weaken the dragon with poison (poisoned
arrow, poisoned food) before taking it on. Of course, if it's an
"honor duel" with a very intelligent and respected creature, this is
not viable.

- A certain species could have a "weak spot", where damage is like
that "to the vitals", but it's very hard to hit... Remember the arrow
that killed Smaug? Or maybe they have a Secret weak spot (ex.: they
have the heart on the RIGHT side of chest, not left).

Remember that, IMHO, it's real pity to use big, intelligent "monsters"
as cannon fodder. Every single battle with such a foe should be
something to remember, with preparation, etc.
And not always it goes well: characters facing such foes should have a
GOOD escape plan. ALWAYS.

Let an old NPC (maybe he has lost some body parts in battles) tell
this to the young fools. ^____________^

>Just trying to picture how these kinds of battles should go, as the
>boys' characters become more powerful and face bigger challenges. (It
>doesn't have to be dragons, it seems to me that a small band of heroes
>are going to have trouble with any powerful monster.)

Yep.
In GURPS the character's development is not always power-directed as
all versions of D&D assume, and, in spite of many tries, converting
the feeling of any D&D to any GURPS is, IMHO, meaningless.

In GURPS, unless you allow DOZEN of points per adventure and cinematic
advantages, the characters will never become even nearly as powerful
as a D&D character, able to go, at highest levels, toe-to-toe with a
dragon.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."

Korin Duval wrote:

> In GURPS, unless you allow DOZEN of points per adventure and cinematic
> advantages, the characters will never become even nearly as powerful
> as a D&D character, able to go, at highest levels, toe-to-toe with a
> dragon.

If you start at 150 point characters this is true, but games
which start with 400 point characters (early Gilgamesh /
Siegfried / Hercules) can work their way up to 500 point
characters capable of taking on dragons individually fairly
readily. And 1,000 point characters can probably take on dragons
easily. (Depending on the nature of the dragon, of course.)

--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

Korin Duval wrote:
> Remember that, IMHO, it's real pity to use big, intelligent "monsters"
> as cannon fodder. Every single battle with such a foe should be
> something to remember, with preparation, etc.
> And not always it goes well: characters facing such foes should have a
> GOOD escape plan. ALWAYS.

This brings up an interesting sub-thread: How does a GURPS Dragon hunt
humans? Let's assume the dragon becomes aware that a dragon-hunting
party has come to town, somewhere. Two settings: 1.) smallish or
medium-sized town, not a lot of magic; 2.) big, crowded, capital-ish
city. At first, he knows nothing except rumors that the dragon hunters
exist.

Max Wilson

Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM.TakeThisOut@yahoo.it> wrote:
>
> I must admit I have NO idea of what dragons are in GURPS Fantasy 4th
> ed.

I just happened to be looking through GURPS Fantasy yesterday, and came
upon a Dragon template. It said it was an old dragon, but it felt a bit
small to me: ST 20 (can't remember any extra hitpoints, but I may have
overlooked those), DR 6, various claw, bite and tail attacks, and 4d
fire breath.

All in all, I'd say it's tough but doable for a single 300 pt somewhat
cinematic hero with the right (magical) equipment (protection from
fire is especially important).

Many settings use much bigger dragons that this, however, and those
will be a lot harder.

> - Dragons are BIG? If so, hitting their head should be quite easy,
> forcing stunning rolls, better critical hits, etc.
> But maybe nature (GM) has provided higher DR to the head!

If they're big, they also have more reach, and hitting their head with
a melee weapon would be very hard. Missile weapons might be a different
matter.


mcv.
--
"Serenity is a very personal work with political resonance and a
heartfelt message about the human condition and stuff blowing up.
'Cause let's face it, nobody cares about that 'human condition'
stuff... in fact if you notice it, try to keep it to yourself."
-- Joss Whedon on his new film

John wrote:

> Have any of y'all ever played out battles of this kind? How does it
> go?

I played out several such battles in 3E (small groups of PCs versus a
big honkin' dragon) and I would bet they would go similarly in 4e.
It's pretty grim for the PCs unless they are really well armored.
Oddly they all usually ended the same way with most of the PCs
unconscious and one or two of the best armored trying to finish off the
very badly injured dragon. In one case the dragon couldn't seem to
hurt the last PC standing (good armor versus bad damage rolling) and
finally resorted to knocking him over and trying to crush him under her
bulk. Alas she was well into negative hit points by then and failed a
HT roll and died when the player managed one last good hit.