A checklists question

May be they did the check before you entered the plane.

"Dallas" <Cybnorm.TakeThisOut@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> schreef in bericht
news:wXmCe.6097$BK1.1061@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> First a comment: On vacation I got to sit in seat 1-E of a Beech 1900C.
> Basically, I sat right behind the copilot without a cockpit door in the
> way.
> Given my hundred or so hours in the Aeroworx King Air with an almost
> identical cockpit to the 1900, it was a remarkable experience.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Abacos/Abacos02Beech1900C2.jpg
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Screenies/BeechKingAirVC1.jpg
>
> But on each flight, these Continental Connection/Gulfstream pilots flew
> from
> cold start to shut down without a single checklist. What's the deal? I
> thought it was bad form to not use checklists, especially when you're
> flying
> passengers for a major airline.
>
> Dallas
>
>
>

Dallas wrote:
>
> But on each flight, these Continental Connection/Gulfstream pilots flew from
> cold start to shut down without a single checklist. What's the deal? I
> thought it was bad form to not use checklists, especially when you're flying
> passengers for a major airline.
>
> Dallas

Being brain-washed by the military requiring the use of a checklist for
every aspect, from pre-flight to the post-flight checks even though you
had everything memorized and thought "We don't need no stinkin'
checklist". It only takes one instance like forgetting to turn the key
on, or failing to insure the fuel valve handle was forward and on, to
even pressing the starter button with the blades still tied down to
failing to button up all the fairings to bring a pilot down to earth. (I
ain't saying I was guilty of any of those incidents but I can tell you
if an engine fairing was left propped up, the exhaust stacks will burn
the paint right off the door.)

That said, when flying the civilian 206 I had the checklist beside me
but only used it to verify all the pre-start checks were done and then
to verify the shutdown checks were done. I believe I was alone among
the other pilots there.


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

My personal preference would be the use of an actual checklist but after
seeing your description of the "cockpit flow, verify after" method, I can
see that working too. I would think that method would work OK after one has
gained some familiarity with the aircraft. Of course familiarity can be a
dangerous thing as we know. Every once in a while things just get
overlooked

My question to Dallas is were they reciting anything out loud like " Flaps:
10 degrees" or was it just all quiet or talk about last night's baseball
game?

Mike C


"Peter R." <pjricc RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rk4nbzz7s0g1$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Dallas <Cybnorm RemoveThis @spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:
>
>> But on each flight, these Continental Connection/Gulfstream pilots flew
>> from
>> cold start to shut down without a single checklist. What's the deal? I
>> thought it was bad form to not use checklists, especially when you're
>> flying
>> passengers for a major airline.
>
> They probably were using a "cockpit flow, verify after" method, whereby
> the
> pilot performing the checklist starts at one point in the cockpit and
> flows
> across the entire cockpit to the same end point, performing all items from
> memory. After the flow is complete, the same pilot simply reads each item
> down the checklist to ensure nothing was omitted during the flow.
>
> According to a well respected pilot friend and former instructor of mine
> who used to fly both for a corporation in an Mitsubishi MU-2 and for Cape
> Air (New England, US) in a Cessna 402, this is an acceptable and common
> method for performing checklists.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:31:56 GMT, Dallas wrote:

> First a comment: On vacation I got to sit in seat 1-E of a Beech 1900C.
> Basically, I sat right behind the copilot without a cockpit door in the way.
> Given my hundred or so hours in the Aeroworx King Air with an almost
> identical cockpit to the 1900, it was a remarkable experience.

Don't you just love flying in small commuters?
I've had open cockpit doors on an F-50, an ERJ-145, an F-70 and a DC-3.
I found the ERJ-145 especially interesting. That whole flight was just
perfect and exactly what I needed to get some rest. First class seats all
around, and an open cockpit door, made me feel like a celeb.

When the cockpit door is open, the pilots usually don't mind if you take
pictures or ask questions. In the case of the F-70 I even got to sit in the
right seat for a little while. The PIC made me promise not to touch a
thing!


> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Abacos/Abacos02Beech1900C2.jpg
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Screenies/BeechKingAirVC1.jpg

The similarities are there alright.
Makes ya wonder if you could fly the real thing, eh?


> But on each flight, these Continental Connection/Gulfstream pilots flew from
> cold start to shut down without a single checklist. What's the deal? I
> thought it was bad form to not use checklists, especially when you're flying
> passengers for a major airline.

I thought it was airline policy.
Personally I think it shows great arrogance and stupidity when an airline
pilot doesn't use the checklists. As a passenger, with a view of the open
cockpit and the pilots, I would not feel safe seeing the pilots do
everything from memory.

I would most likely report it to the airline right after touchdown.
There's been too many pilot errors in the past. If futures stupidities can
be avoided then anyone who can contribute to that avoidance should do so.
But that's just me. I'm big on safety.

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the
earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. - Leonardo da Vinci)

Peter R. wrote:
> Dallas <Cybnorm.DeleteThis@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:
>
>
>>But on each flight, these Continental Connection/Gulfstream pilots flew from
>>cold start to shut down without a single checklist. What's the deal? I
>>thought it was bad form to not use checklists, especially when you're flying
>>passengers for a major airline.
>
>
> They probably were using a "cockpit flow, verify after" method, whereby the
> pilot performing the checklist starts at one point in the cockpit and flows
> across the entire cockpit to the same end point, performing all items from
> memory. After the flow is complete, the same pilot simply reads each item
> down the checklist to ensure nothing was omitted during the flow.
>
> According to a well respected pilot friend and former instructor of mine
> who used to fly both for a corporation in an Mitsubishi MU-2 and for Cape
> Air (New England, US) in a Cessna 402, this is an acceptable and common
> method for performing checklists.
>

But how does it work? Do you memorize what position every switch was in
and then check that with the checklist afterwards? Doesn't make sense
to me.



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

The Man Behind The Curtain <johngrabowski.TakeThisOut@earthblink.net> wrote:

> But how does it work? Do you memorize what position every switch was in
> and then check that with the checklist afterwards?

Yes, exactly. You memorize each stop along the flow. The flow itself
assists the pilot in knowing where to stop. If you design your flow
correctly, you will land on every single switch, handle, circuit breaker,
flight control, and gauge to ensure it is set correctly.

> Doesn't make sense to me.

This is something that the sim's screen cockpit cannot replicate, therefore
I certainly understand why you might not be able to envision it. However,
if you actually sit in a cockpit and are able to touch everything, you
should see how the flow might work.

When I transitioned from a C172 to the Bonanza, I took the preflight,
pre-takeoff, and other "default" Beechcraft checklists and converted them
to custom checklists that fit my flow across the cockpit from left to
right. Thus, when I perform each checklist, I first do the flow, then look
down the list to ensure I didn't miss anything.

See my Normal Procedures checklists (MS Excel spreadsheet where I guarantee
no viruses/trojans live). Each checklist matches a flow:

http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/BE35%20Normal%20Procedures.xls


--
Peter

















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"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12fjn1svoww6r$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> The Man Behind The Curtain <johngrabowski RemoveThis @earthblink.net> wrote:
>
>> But how does it work? Do you memorize what position every switch was in
>> and then check that with the checklist afterwards?
>
> Yes, exactly. You memorize each stop along the flow. The flow itself
> assists the pilot in knowing where to stop. If you design your flow
> correctly, you will land on every single switch, handle, circuit breaker,
> flight control, and gauge to ensure it is set correctly.
>
>> Doesn't make sense to me.
>
> This is something that the sim's screen cockpit cannot replicate,
> therefore
> I certainly understand why you might not be able to envision it. However,
> if you actually sit in a cockpit and are able to touch everything, you
> should see how the flow might work.
>
> When I transitioned from a C172 to the Bonanza, I took the preflight,
> pre-takeoff, and other "default" Beechcraft checklists and converted them
> to custom checklists that fit my flow across the cockpit from left to
> right. Thus, when I perform each checklist, I first do the flow, then
> look
> down the list to ensure I didn't miss anything.
>
> See my Normal Procedures checklists (MS Excel spreadsheet where I
> guarantee
> no viruses/trojans live). Each checklist matches a flow:
>
> http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/BE35%20Normal%20Procedures.xls
>
>
> --
> Peter

Hi Peter,

Don't know if it is still done today, but back in 1959 when I was in Army
Flight training with the L-19 Birddog (current designation O-1 but to us
old-timers, it is STILL an L-19 ) ), we had to pass a "blindfold cockpit
checkout" before we would be cleared for solo.

To accomplish this, we sat in the cockpit during times when we were not
flying, memorizing the location of every switch, knob, circuit breaker etc.
When we thought we were ready, we would notify the instructor. He would get
an aircraft that was parked on the ramp. The student would sit in the front
seat blindfolded, with the instructor standing on the ground in the open
door where he could see everything. The instructor would call out the
various items, and the student would have to place his hand on it. NONE were
skipped, and they were called out by the instructor in random order, not
checklist order. If you failed, you spent more "cockpit time" and then tried
again.

I think to this day I could crawl into a Birddog and still pass that
checkout. )

Paul

Paul Riley <Falcon63624 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Don't know if it is still done today, but back in 1959 when I was in Army
> Flight training with the L-19 Birddog (current designation O-1 but to us
> old-timers, it is STILL an L-19 ) ), we had to pass a "blindfold cockpit
> checkout" before we would be cleared for solo.

I've heard of older instructors telling of this but it is not required in
the civilian side of aviation.

--
Peter


















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In other words, it is sort of like mowing the lawn in a customized path.
I'm serious now. You create a path thru the cockpit that takes you top the
key checklist items? I can see where it would work.

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12fjn1svoww6r$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> The Man Behind The Curtain <johngrabowski.RemoveThis@earthblink.net> wrote:
>
>> But how does it work? Do you memorize what position every switch was in
>> and then check that with the checklist afterwards?
>
> Yes, exactly. You memorize each stop along the flow. The flow itself
> assists the pilot in knowing where to stop. If you design your flow
> correctly, you will land on every single switch, handle, circuit breaker,
> flight control, and gauge to ensure it is set correctly.
>
>> Doesn't make sense to me.
>
> This is something that the sim's screen cockpit cannot replicate,
> therefore
> I certainly understand why you might not be able to envision it. However,
> if you actually sit in a cockpit and are able to touch everything, you
> should see how the flow might work.
>
> When I transitioned from a C172 to the Bonanza, I took the preflight,
> pre-takeoff, and other "default" Beechcraft checklists and converted them
> to custom checklists that fit my flow across the cockpit from left to
> right. Thus, when I perform each checklist, I first do the flow, then
> look
> down the list to ensure I didn't miss anything.
>
> See my Normal Procedures checklists (MS Excel spreadsheet where I
> guarantee
> no viruses/trojans live). Each checklist matches a flow:
>
> http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/BE35%20Normal%20Procedures.xls
>
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
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> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----

mikepic <mikepic DeleteThis @insightbb.com> wrote:

> You create a path thru the cockpit that takes you top the
> key checklist items? I can see where it would work.

The path should take you through *all* the checklist items for it to be
effective.

--
Peter


















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Not having been there and seen the situation, I can only tell you that it is
NOT normal procedure for a crew not to be using a written checklist. This
also includes the final line up check just before power up.
Sometimes, with a crew flying the same airplane every day, there is a
tendency to do the lists verbally by rote, but in my opinion, this is
EXACTLY the scenario that will eventually nail you as a pilot.
I flew thousands of hours in over 50 different types of airplanes. I have
YET to this day to make one flight without using a written checklist.
Dudley

"Dallas" <Cybnorm RemoveThis @spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:wXmCe.6097$BK1.1061@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> First a comment: On vacation I got to sit in seat 1-E of a Beech 1900C.
> Basically, I sat right behind the copilot without a cockpit door in the
> way.
> Given my hundred or so hours in the Aeroworx King Air with an almost
> identical cockpit to the 1900, it was a remarkable experience.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Abacos/Abacos02Beech1900C2.jpg
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Screenies/BeechKingAirVC1.jpg
>
> But on each flight, these Continental Connection/Gulfstream pilots flew
> from
> cold start to shut down without a single checklist. What's the deal? I
> thought it was bad form to not use checklists, especially when you're
> flying
> passengers for a major airline.
>
> Dallas
>
>
>

"Marcel Kuijper"
>The PIC made me promise not to touch a
> thing!


Did you tell him you were a qualified Microsoft Flight Simulator Pilot?



Dallas

"Beech45Whiskey"
> http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/BE35%20Normal%20Procedures.xls

Thanks, that's a nice checklist.

I like the grey/white scheme... it keeps you from glossing over one because
they don't all look alike.


Dallas