Hottest Free Downloads - DownloadPipe.com Over 197,000 downloads! Bookmark Now!
DownloadPipe.com - New Downloads Every Minute
 SEARCH:
FAQFAQ    SearchSearch      ProfileProfile    Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in

Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang"

 
   Games (Home) -> Mah Jongg RSS
Next:  A Hypothesis of the Name of the Game Mahjong.  
Author Message
ithinc

External


Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 31



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:48 pm
Post subject: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang"
Archived from groups: rec>games>mahjong (more info?)

Recently I have read "麻将"(ma jiang) mentioned in two novels from the
Late Qing period.

One is "Shi sheng"("Marketing Sound"), written by Ji Wen during the
period from 1905 to 1908. Twenty-five chapters of the novel was
firstly serialized in the magazine "Xiu xiang xiao shuo"("Illustrated
Stories"), founded by Li Boyuan in 1903, from the 43rd issue(March 5,
1905) to the 72nd(April 22, 1906). Then the magazine was closed down
for reason of the death of Li Boyuan. In April, 1908(March, Guangxu
33), the novel was published in book form by Shangwu Yinshuguan,
consisting of thirty-six chapters in two volumes. There appears "麻
将"(ma jiang) for three times in the book(in Chapter 26, 35 and 36).
"闲话休提,当下叫人到帐房里去,借了一副麻将牌来,调开桌子,四人上局。"[...a set of majiang pai...]
"桌上的麻将牌还摊着没收。"[....the majiang tiles on the table...]
"走进门时,只听得楼上麻将牌声清脆。"[...the majiang tiles upstairs sound clear....]

The other one is "Huan hai sheng chen lu"("A Record of Promotion and
Demotion in Officialdom"), written by Huang Shizhong. It was published
in book form by Hongkong Shibaoguan in 1909, consisting of twenty-two
chapters. "麻将"(ma jiang) appears for only one time in this book.
"但见上房内,有几个妇女还围在一张桌子上打麻将,旁边立着几个丫环递烟。"[...is playing majiang...]

By the way, I have not seen a hardcopy or photocopy of these two
books. I read only the electronic text.

The name "麻将"(ma jiang) is also mentioned in one of the earliest
Chinese mahjong manuals, "Bai zhan bai sheng ma que jing"("Hundred
Battles, Hundred Victories, Maque Bible"), written by Pingjiang Zhu
Yingyan, published by Guangnan Shuju in Shanghai in September,
1914(Mid Autumn, Minguo 3) for the 1st edition. It says the game was
also called "叉麻将"(cha ma jiang), or "打麻将"(da ma jiang) in the
North(North China, referring to Beijing, Tianjin, etc). (I have got a
copy of this book for long, but havn't got ready to introduce it in
the group yet. It's a bit hard for me to write a long article and
there seems few exciting information in the book.)

Cheers,
ithinc
Back to top
Login to vote
al

External


Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 9, 5:48 pm, ithinc <ithi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recently I have read "麻将"(ma jiang) mentioned in two novels from the
> Late Qing period.
>
> One is "Shi sheng"("Marketing Sound"), written by Ji Wen during the
> period from 1905 to 1908. [..]
>
> The other one is "Huan hai sheng chen lu"("A Record of Promotion and
> Demotion in Officialdom"), written by Huang Shizhong. [..]
>
> By the way, I have not seen a hardcopy or photocopy of these two
> books. I read only the electronic text.
> [..]
>
> Cheers,
> ithinc
+++++++++++++++++
Let me repeat the key items from above.

(1) "Recently I have read "麻将"(ma jiang) mentioned in two novels from
the Late Qing period."

(2) "By the way, I have not seen a hardcopy or photocopy of these two
books. I read only the electronic text."
++++++++++++++

The quote above can be paraphrased for the terms "Cash" and "suo"
like this:
I read "Cash" and "suo" in an article on games played in the Late Ming
period.
In Lu Rong's 38-card pack, "there is one card each from 1 cash to 9
cash and there is one card each from 100 cash to 900 cash."
Similarly, in Pan Zheheng's 40-card Ma Diao pack, "Pan gives Suo
(strings) and cash and defines 1 suo as 100 cash."

Also, to paraphrase, by the way, I have not seen a hardcopy or
photocopy of Lu Rong or Pan Zheheng's book. I read only the
translation text in The Playing-Card Volume XXIX Number 3, published
recently.
++++++++++++++++++

I have been told Cash was first coined by Himly; the term did not
exist in the Ming period. But as written and translated, Cash appeared
as a term already in use in Ming.

A parallel situation is possible in the case of Ma Jiang 麻将. The
electronic version of the name of the game has been modified, re-
created or westernized.
+++++++++++++++++

Another thing, Chinese people do not name anything or any one without
some meaning attached. Parents name their babies with meaningful
words. People change names for various reasons to express their
personality or purpose in life. Games like Fighting Tiger and Heaven-
Nine have meanings in the names themselves. Regardless of its dialect
and pronunciation, a true Chinese name has meaning. That is Chinese
culture.

I was given a Western name when I came to Canada. I had no idea what
it meant. It does not even sound like my Chinese name. I chose it
because it sounded the best among the choices presented. I chose
deliberately the names for all my children. Either their first names
or middle names homonyze (sound alike) somewhat with their Chinese
names.

As a name, Ma Jiang 麻将 does not make sense. A sensible explanation is
that the name 麻将 is a derivation based on the way it sounds and not
what the name means. Since that is not the way real Chinese names come
about, a different hypothesis is that foreign influence altered the
game's name. In other words, Mahjiang 麻将 is just as meaningless as
Mahjong)g). I might even say that it is identity-theft in reverse.
++++++++++++++
Cheers...al
Back to top
Login to vote
Cofa Tsui

External


Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 29



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 12, 4:03 pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 5:48 pm, ithinc <ithi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:> Recently I have read "$BKc>-(B"(ma jiang) mentioned in two novels from the
> > Late Qing period.
[...]

>
> As a name, Ma Jiang $BKc>-(B does not make sense. A sensible explanation is
> that the name $BKc>-(B is a derivation based on the way it sounds and not
> what the name means.

I agree that this mostly is the case.

> [...] a different hypothesis is that foreign influence altered the
> game's name. In other words, Mahjiang $BKc>-(B is just as meaningless as
> Mahjong)g). I might even say that it is identity-theft in reverse.

This hypothesis I don't agree. It is more reasonable "Mah-Jongg" was
coined after the terms "ma que" or "ma jiang" (verbal or written, if
this particular written form was possibly seen by Babcock) in the
1920s, than the other way around as suggested by people nowadays.

Also one should be cauctioned about reading articles about mahjong
generated from mainland China in the recent years: I suspect that the
term "$BKc>-(B" is purposedly used to substitute the term "$BKc?}(B" in most
articles, just to suit the general readers. As in Ithinc's case, I
would insist in seeing the "original" copy of the novels to be sure
how the names were originally printed.

Cheers!
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Back to top
Login to vote
ithinc

External


Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 31



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:25 am
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 13, 9:41 am, Cofa Tsui <cofat....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Also one should be cauctioned about reading articles about mahjong
> generated from mainland China in the recent years: I suspect that the
> term "麻将" is purposedly used to substitute the term "麻雀" in most
> articles, just to suit the general readers.

Hello Cofa,

You may have a read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putonghua(in
English) and http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/普通话(in Chinese). The
Putonghua vocabulary is largely drawn from mandarin dialects, while "麻
将" was preferred in the mandarin dialects. I knew 麻雀 could mean the
mahjong game only after I once saw a "日本麻雀" game on an electronic game
machine at the age of 17 or so. I took it as a Japaness specific term
at that time.

> As in Ithinc's case, I
> would insist in seeing the "original" copy of the novels to be sure
> how the names were originally printed.

I agree. But at least we have already the "original" copy of "Bai zhan
bai sheng ma que jing" and thus could shift the "麻将" term to at least
1914, much earlier than Babcock's Mah-jongg.

Cheers,
ithinc
Back to top
Login to vote
Cofa Tsui

External


Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 29



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:32 am
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 13, 7:25 am, ithinc <ithi... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 13, 9:41 am, Cofa Tsui <cofat... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Also one should be cauctioned about reading articles about mahjong
> > generated from mainland China in the recent years: I suspect that the
> > term "麻将" is purposedly used to substitute the term "麻雀" in most
> > articles, just to suit the general readers.
>
> Hello Cofa,
>
> You may have a read onhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putonghua(in
> English) andhttp://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/普通话(in Chinese). The

WOW, that's a lot of reading!

> Putonghua vocabulary is largely drawn from mandarin dialects, while "麻
> 将" was preferred in the mandarin dialects.

This may well be the situations of *nowadays*; but when discussing
about history, we would need to place ourselves in the appropriate
time back. And that's why I find your hypothesis in another thread
reasonable (i.e., while the game was written as 麻雀 [ma que] in the old
days, people used to call it as 麻将 [ma jiang] in various dialects). If
麻雀 [ma que] is the only way we see how the game is called (written) in
the older literature, the fact shall not be influenced by conditions
of the later days.

I knew 麻雀 could mean the
> mahjong game only after I once saw a "日本麻雀" game on an electronic game
> machine at the age of 17 or so. I took it as a Japaness specific term
> at that time.

I think the Japanese writing could be a good proof of the name of the
game in older (earlier) form. I assume the game was introduced to
Japan back then with at least some sort of written materials, and the
Japanese people keep the original written name unchanged.

> > As in Ithinc's case, I
> > would insist in seeing the "original" copy of the novels to be sure
> > how the names were originally printed.
>
> I agree. But at least we have already the "original" copy of "Bai zhan
> bai sheng ma que jing" and thus could shift the "麻将" term to at least
> 1914, much earlier than Babcock's Mah-jongg.

The date of a publication is important. Now with the 百战百胜麻雀经 ["Baizhan
Baisheng Maque Jing"], is the term [ma que] used instead of [ma
jiang]? I don't understand what you mean here. And with Li Boyuan's 官场现
形记 ["Guanchang Xianxing Ji"] (ca.1903), [ma que] is also used (see a
quote at:
http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives205d_2.html).

Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Back to top
Login to vote
Cofa Tsui

External


Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 29



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:44 am
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 12, 5:41 pm, Cofa Tsui <cofat....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

I have posted:

> This hypothesis I don't agree. It is more reasonable "Mah-Jongg" was
> coined after the terms "ma que" or "ma jiang" (verbal or written, if
> this particular written form was possibly seen by Babcock) in the
> 1920s, than the other way around as suggested by people nowadays.

I note that Babcock's book does have the term "$BKc?}(B" [ma que] printed on
its front. It is still possible Babcock had (or had not) heard of "$BKc(B
$B>-(B" [ma jiang] being called in various dialects, but "$BKc?}(B" [ma que] was
the only written form he ever read. If this is the case, and again,
this name ("$BKc?}(B" [ma que]) is properly preserved in yet another foreign
language.

Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Back to top
Login to vote
al

External


Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 13, 12:44 pm, Cofa Tsui <cofat....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 5:41 pm, Cofa Tsui <cofat....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have posted:
>
> > This hypothesis I don't agree. It is more reasonable "Mah-Jongg" was
> > coined after the terms "ma que" or "ma jiang" (verbal or written, if
> > this particular written form was possibly seen by Babcock) in the
> > 1920s, than the other way around as suggested by people nowadays.
>
> I note that Babcock's book does have the term "$BKc?}(B" [ma que] printed on
> its front. It is still possible Babcock had (or had not) heard of "$BKc(B
> $B>-(B" [ma jiang] being called in various dialects, but "$BKc?}(B" [ma que] was
> the only written form he ever read. If this is the case, and again,
> this name ("$BKc?}(B" [ma que]) is properly preserved in yet another foreign
> language.
>
> Cofa Tsuiwww.iMahjong.com

+++++++++++++++
Just a short note, Cofa...

Regardless how the pronunciation or pinyim is different, the Chinese
writing should be the same. Again, it's in our culture, a name of true
Chinese origin has meaning. $BKc(B $B>-(B has no meaning.
+++++++++
Cheers...al
Back to top
Login to vote
Cofa Tsui

External


Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 29



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 13, 9:33 pm, al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Regardless how the pronunciation or pinyim is different, the Chinese
> writing should be the same.

This stands correct only *if the Chinese writing is already known* -
If in a location (or region) people know the game only by the sound
"ma jiang" and no written form is available, and if someone has to put
the name in writing, the written form could be more than one (i.e.,
[ma que], [ma jiang] or even [ma diao] as they all *sound the same* in
their dialects).

Again, it's in our culture, a name of true
> Chinese origin has meaning. $BKc(B $B>-(B has no meaning.

Think about the hypothesis this way: As mentioned above, if someone
has to put the name of the game in writing and if the only term they
can find suitable is $BKc>-(B [ma jiang] for the sound they are familar
with, then the term $BKc>-(B [ma jiang] will have its meaning, i.e., the
name of the game they are familiar with.

The above explains how names in Chinese could still be given, based
soly on the sound when the written form is missing.

Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Back to top
Login to vote
ithinc

External


Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 31



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 14, 1:32 am, Cofa Tsui <cofat....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The date of a publication is important. Now with the 百战百胜麻雀经 ["Baizhan
> Baisheng Maque Jing"], is the term [ma que] used instead of [ma
> jiang]? I don't understand what you mean here.

The author of the 1914 "Maque Jing" clearly tells us, "俗名又呌做叉麻將, 北邊人又呌做
打麻將"([The game] is also called Cha Majiang, and the north people call
it Da Majiang), as indicated by my top post.

Cheers,
ithinc
Back to top
Login to vote
al

External


Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Updates to the Earliest Chinese References to "Ma Jiang" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 14, 8:17 am, ithinc <ithi....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 14, 1:32 am, Cofa Tsui <cofat....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The date of a publication is important. Now with the 百战百胜麻雀经 ["Baizhan
> > Baisheng Maque Jing"], is the term [ma que] used instead of [ma
> > jiang]? I don't understand what you mean here.
>
> The author of the 1914 "Maque Jing" clearly tells us, "俗名又呌做叉麻將, 北邊人又呌做
> 打麻將"([The game] is also called Cha Majiang, and the north people call
> it Da Majiang), as indicated by my top post.
>
> Cheers,
> ithinc
++++++++++++++++
Definition of 麻雀 is a bird, the sparrow. Was there a definition given
for the two words, 麻將?

I quoted from FAQ #11 on the question of the 麻將 name in my recent
post. Do you have any comments about the meaning of 麻將 such as 'hempen
general' or 'jute commander' and whatever?

I wonder why Himly, Wilkinson and other historians and collectors only
used the name 麻雀 and not 麻將. I would have thought that they had
reported everything just as they did for all the names for Cash.
+++++++++++
Cheers...al
Back to top
Login to vote
Display posts from previous:   
Related Topics:
Official Chinese rules of "Mah-Jong" (not Chinese Official.. - The only really official rules of "Mah-Jong" are here: http://www.dicj.gov.mo/PT/Regulamento/FortunaAzar/Mahjong.htm They are dated 1991. Unfortunately the English version is not available. You may like to read them in Chinese instead. Note t...

Earliest Japanese reference to Matiao?! - Tom and Michael Stanwick (or maybe others), during this month, my dad ordered a Japanese mj PS2 game for my birthday via www.play-asia.com called "Maajan Taikai 3". It was produced by Koei in 2000 when the PS2 was new, the same company which ma...

Ma que, ma jiang, all because of mah-jongg? - I just noticed an interesting statement in Tom's FAQ 6 (http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq06.htm). While introducing the term "mah-jongg" in Chinese, he wrote: QUOTE Chinese [image 1] (ma que, "hemp sparrow / jute bird / flax bird")...

Chinese Official (All chows) - Combination All Chows should include only chows and a pair? If you can write me some examples please! Best regards, Mihai!

Triple pung in Chinese Official - Hi, I have a question about triple pung in CO: When I have two pungs and a melded or promoted kong, should this be counted as triple pung? But when kong is concealed? Best regards, Mihai
       Games (Home) -> Mah Jongg All times are: Pacific Time (US & Canada) (change)
Page 1 of 1

 
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Categories:
 Windows Forums
  Game Forums
 Linux Forums
 Mac Forums
 PDA Forums
 Mobile Forums
  Top  |  Store  |  RSS Feeds RSS  |  Data Feeds  |  Advertise  |  Submit  |  Bookmark  |  Newsletter  |  Contact