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high fructose corn syrup

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Since: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 16



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:06 pm
Post subject: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>misc (more info?)

I just thought I'd jot down a few observations of SS Dungeon Crawl
that don't belong in the "Bugs" reporting web site.

Things I like:
========

*the Bazaar is way cool. Who would pass up such an opportunity?
Although, perhaps there should be an element of danger or uncertainty
in the shops.

*there is a new area, the Shoals, that I have not seen before, and
it's fun! In fact I would rate it even higher than the wonderful Slime
Pits.

*there are New monsters, New spells, New races, New classes
(artificer), and New items! All of this adds spice to the game.

*the maps have new design features, and hostile statues are handled
better in the Tiles version. You can know for sure the range of the
statue's influence.

Last but most certainly not least--in fact this shoulda been first:

*the alpha Tiles version of 0.5, build made on 12-21 now accomodates a
much wider screen. We are no longer limited to the old screen that
dates back to MS-DOS days! I think they have some clever code that
detects the screen resolution and automatically adjusts the screen
accordingly. this is a total revolution in game play and makes the
game twice as good, in fact instead of .5 this could be version 1.0,
because the difference is like night and day.

Now there are just a few things I don't care for so much.
==================================

1. Last time I tried the Labyrinth,back in .43, it was next to
impossible. Unless you plan on graphing the maze with a piece of paper
and a pen, forget it. Even if you are a Mummy you will eventually get
bored of going around and around and not having any action. I have not
been tempted to try the Labyrinth ever again.

2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
you or render your character next to unplayable. Examples: deck of
changes turns you into a bat, you weigh too much, you're dead! Or
deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?
Probably not. Forcing a character to suicide is kind of dark.

3. I still believe that magic users seem most unlikely to get the Orb
of Zot. They have too few hit points, too little armor, etc. Crawl is
an intensely mellee combat oriented game. I have tried magic users
many, many times, but I don't see any future in them at all. Also, the
Intelligence attribute, essential for spellcasters, is an almost
useless attribute in Crawl, as far as defense and practical things
like carrying a bunch of stuff. Almost every detail in the game's
design conspires against spellcasters. Even the God of Magic users,
Sif Muna, is good for nothing except massaging the spellcasting
ability. Only hybrids seem worth trying, and even they are greatly
inferior to pure warrior types.
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Stefan O'Rear

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Since: Dec 07, 2008
Posts: 12



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2008-12-26, high fructose corn syrup <hfcs.DeleteThis@ubeijing.edu> wrote:
> 1. Last time I tried the Labyrinth,back in .43, it was next to
> impossible. Unless you plan on graphing the maze with a piece of paper
> and a pen, forget it. Even if you are a Mummy you will eventually get
> bored of going around and around and not having any action. I have not
> been tempted to try the Labyrinth ever again.

I don't know, they never seem at all bad for me, I've never had a huge
problem in one and the loot is very much worth it. You know about
wall colors, right?

> 2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
> you or render your character next to unplayable. Examples: deck of
> changes turns you into a bat, you weigh too much, you're dead!

Ahem. Batform is a temporary condition. Activate the "End
Transformation" (a)bility.

> Or deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
> now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?

Yes, stats don't matter in Crawl especially not str and dex.

> Probably not. Forcing a character to suicide is kind of dark.
>
> 3. I still believe that magic users seem most unlikely to get the Orb
> of Zot. They have too few hit points, too little armor, etc. Crawl is
> an intensely mellee combat oriented game. I have tried magic users
> many, many times, but I don't see any future in them at all. Also, the
> Intelligence attribute, essential for spellcasters, is an almost
> useless attribute in Crawl, as far as defense and practical things
> like carrying a bunch of stuff. Almost every detail in the game's
> design conspires against spellcasters. Even the God of Magic users,
> Sif Muna, is good for nothing except massaging the spellcasting
> ability. Only hybrids seem worth trying, and even they are greatly
> inferior to pure warrior types.

Personally I find casters far, far, far easier that melee types. I
wonder what I'm doing wrong?
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Martin Read

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Since: May 25, 2005
Posts: 1492



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

acedia.DeleteThis@ubeijing.edu wrote:
>3. I still believe that magic users seem most unlikely to get the Orb
>of Zot.

I will agree with you if you meant "most unlikely" only in the sense of
"least likely", rather than "highly unlikely".

The experts can win almost as handily with mages as with fighters; what
differs is their approach to the late game. (Fighters are better for the
Extended Endgame of clearing some/all of the hells before doing Zot.)
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
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David Ploog

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Since: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 129



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008, high fructose corn syrup wrote:

I'm pressed on time, so here's a very short reply.

> *there are New monsters, New spells, New races, New classes
> (artificer), and New items! All of this adds spice to the game.

Note that New and More is not generally better. We try very hard to avoid
the (often seen) phenomenon of adding new stuff and thereby invalidating
old stuff.

> 1. Last time I tried the Labyrinth,back in .43, it was next to
> impossible. Unless you plan on graphing the maze with a piece of paper
> and a pen, forget it. Even if you are a Mummy you will eventually get
> bored of going around and around and not having any action. I have not
> been tempted to try the Labyrinth ever again.

First, labyrinths have been redone for early DCSS. (They've been trivial
in 4b26.) These are the mazes you experienced in 0.43. They're still
pretty simple to solve, especially if you know about wall hugging. Other
cheap tricks are digging (in the rock section) and repeated teleports.

We are aware that ultimately drawing the maze onto paper would be the
'best' solution (in a somewhat weird metric), which is why labs in trunk
are completely redone. Not sure that you'd like it, but now they change
over time. Meaning that drawing them is not (that) useful anymore. Smile

> > 2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
> you or render your character next to unplayable.

This is wrong.

> Examples: deck of changes turns you into a bat, you weigh too much,
> you're dead!

A long fixed bug (dying from the Str decrease of bat form).

> Or deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
> now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?
> Probably not. Forcing a character to suicide is kind of dark.

Well, using decks means taking chances. In case your HOBe now has Int 27,
then it's Spellcasting, right. If all cards were unanimously positive,
it'd be a broken part of the game. Some are of double-edged (like the
Shuffle card). By the way, Shuffle is one of the few remaining cards from
4b26. Keeping it is our way to respect history.

> 3. I still believe that magic users seem most unlikely to get the Orb
> of Zot.

This is a plain sign of your inexperience (sorry to be so harsh).
Spellcasters work very well, perhaps too much so in the case of the more
straightforward casting styles.

> Also, the Intelligence attribute, essential for spellcasters, is an
> almost useless attribute in Crawl

In case anyone is reading this -- it is wrong! Int is the only really
relevant stat at the moment (and yes, we are planning to change that, and
no, we're not planning to make Int irrelevant).

David
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high fructose corn syrup

External


Since: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 16



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 00:17:09 +0100, David Ploog
<ploog.RemoveThis@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

>On Fri, 26 Dec 2008, high fructose corn syrup wrote:
>
>> *there are New monsters, New spells, New races, New classes
>> (artificer), and New items! All of this adds spice to the game.
>
>Note that New and More is not generally better. We try very hard to avoid
>the (often seen) phenomenon of adding new stuff and thereby invalidating
>old stuff.

Good!

>First, labyrinths have been redone for early DCSS. (They've been trivial
>in 4b26.) These are the mazes you experienced in 0.43. They're still
>pretty simple to solve, especially if you know about wall hugging. Other
>cheap tricks are digging (in the rock section) and repeated teleports.
>
>We are aware that ultimately drawing the maze onto paper would be the
>'best' solution (in a somewhat weird metric), which is why labs in trunk
>are completely redone. Not sure that you'd like it, but now they change
>over time. Meaning that drawing them is not (that) useful anymore. Smile

That's even more reason for me to never, ever go into the Labyrinth! I
don't personally enjoy a maze where I can't see the whole thing but
only see the tiles about me. The reward at the end is not worth the
time invested.

>> > 2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
>> you or render your character next to unplayable.
>
>This is wrong.

No, in this case, I am correct.

>> Examples: deck of changes turns you into a bat, you weigh too much,
>> you're dead!
>
>A long fixed bug (dying from the Str decrease of bat form).

Dying from carrying too much weight in bat form. Being crushed. This
happened to me in either .43 or .5. I think it was .5, but I'm not
sure anymore, since you say the bug is long-fixed.

>> Or deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
>> now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?
>> Probably not. Forcing a character to suicide is kind of dark.
>
>Well, using decks means taking chances. In case your HOBe now has Int 27,
>then it's Spellcasting, right. If all cards were unanimously positive,
>it'd be a broken part of the game. Some are of double-edged (like the
>Shuffle card). By the way, Shuffle is one of the few remaining cards from
>4b26. Keeping it is our way to respect history.

A Beserker with an Int of 27 has to renounce Trog to practice
spellcasting, abandon heavy armor most likely, learn a new skill, et
cetera. It's not impossible, no, but can you imagine the reaction of
the player character? My solution is to never test an unidentified
deck, and never use a deck of changes.

>> 3. I still believe that magic users seem most unlikely to get the Orb
>> of Zot.
>
>This is a plain sign of your inexperience (sorry to be so harsh).
>Spellcasters work very well, perhaps too much so in the case of the more
>straightforward casting styles.

Unless the game balance is changed, I still believe fighters are
better. But this is a matter of preference. With my fighters, the game
is more like Dungeons and Rabbits. It's fun but not really hard at
all.

>> Also, the Intelligence attribute, essential for spellcasters, is an
>> almost useless attribute in Crawl
>
>In case anyone is reading this -- it is wrong! Int is the only really
>relevant stat at the moment (and yes, we are planning to change that, and
>no, we're not planning to make Int irrelevant).

I disagree, although I don't know what the code says about Int, the
documentation indicates that Int is just useful for magic items and
spellcasting. If Int increases magical resistance, or has some other
benefit, the documentation makes no reference of that.
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high fructose corn syrup

External


Since: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 16



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:04 am
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 26 Dec 2008 23:04:35 +0000 (GMT), Martin Read
<mpread.RemoveThis@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>acedia@ubeijing.edu wrote:
>>3. I still believe that magic users seem most unlikely to get the Orb
>>of Zot.
>
>I will agree with you if you meant "most unlikely" only in the sense of
>"least likely", rather than "highly unlikely".
>
>The experts can win almost as handily with mages as with fighters; what
>differs is their approach to the late game. (Fighters are better for the
>Extended Endgame of clearing some/all of the hells before doing Zot.)

The hells may be the most enjoyable realms in Crawl. A hidden delight
I discovered just this year with version .43. I make it a point to
always clear the hells before trying Zot because Zot itself is not
nearly as interesting. Although grabbing the Orb and getting out is
quite a challenge.
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high fructose corn syrup

External


Since: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 16



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:56:26 GMT, Stefan O'Rear <stefanor.TakeThisOut@cox.net>
wrote:

>On 2008-12-26, high fructose corn syrup <hfcs.TakeThisOut@ubeijing.edu> wrote:
>> 1. Last time I tried the Labyrinth,back in .43, it was next to
>> impossible. Unless you plan on graphing the maze with a piece of paper
>> and a pen, forget it. Even if you are a Mummy you will eventually get
>> bored of going around and around and not having any action. I have not
>> been tempted to try the Labyrinth ever again.
>
>I don't know, they never seem at all bad for me, I've never had a huge
>problem in one and the loot is very much worth it. You know about
>wall colors, right?

No, I'll keep that in mind though. Maybe I'll try the maze again some
day. But my chars usually have a problem of too many magical items to
begin with. The only reason I visit a place is to encounter something
fun and challenging. The treasure is a nice bonus.

>> 2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
>> you or render your character next to unplayable. Examples: deck of
>> changes turns you into a bat, you weigh too much, you're dead!
>
>Ahem. Batform is a temporary condition. Activate the "End
>Transformation" (a)bility.

Yes, but not if you're crushed due to too much weight.

>> Or deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
>> now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?
>
>Yes, stats don't matter in Crawl especially not str and dex.

If this is true, the documentation needs modification. Reading the
docs would lead any reasonable person to conclude that Str and Dex are
the best attributes and the most helpful.

>Personally I find casters far, far, far easier that melee types. I
>wonder what I'm doing wrong?

Try a Hill Orc or Minotaur Beserker on for size, and exercise Unarmed
Combat for the first several levels, until you find a quality runed
weapon. Then use that particular weapon class exclusively. Avoid
missile combat or use it only as an afterthought. I would almost add,
"increase Strength to the neglect of Dexterity," but the hints that
you and David have dropped, lead me to question my assumptions about
attributes, which were based upon documentation that is apparently
obsolete.
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tenayatenaya

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Since: Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 60



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Dec 30, 12:10 am, high fructose corn syrup <h... RemoveThis @ubeijing.edu>
wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:56:26 GMT, Stefan O'Rear <stefa... RemoveThis @cox.net>
>
>
> >> Or deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
> >> now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?
>
> >Yes, stats don't matter in Crawl especially not str and dex.
>
> If this is true, the documentation needs modification. Reading the
> docs would lead any reasonable person to conclude that Str and Dex are
> the best attributes and the most helpful.

So, in the case of the three tutorial combinations (MiBe, DECo, CeHu),
which stats should I increase?

>
> Try a Hill Orc or Minotaur Beserker on for size, and exercise Unarmed

For the case of a MiBe or Hill Orc, does having unarmed combat help
after I start using a weapon? What if I didn't have any skill in UC
and I used a weapon?

> Combat for the first several levels, until you find a quality runed
> weapon. Then use that particular weapon class exclusively. Avoid
> missile combat or use it only as an afterthought. I would almost add,
> "increase Strength to the neglect of Dexterity," but the hints that
> you and David have dropped, lead me to question my assumptions about
> attributes, which were based upon documentation that is apparently
> obsolete.

Could you define what you mean by a "quality runed" weapon?

Thanks!
Tenaya
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Martin Read

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Since: May 25, 2005
Posts: 1492



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

acedia.TakeThisOut@ubeijing.edu wrote:
>Unless the game balance is changed, I still believe fighters are
>better. But this is a matter of preference. With my fighters, the game
>is more like Dungeons and Rabbits. It's fun but not really hard at
>all.

For a mortal-runes-only win, I'm not sure *anything* is easier than a
summoner. It is not all *that* remarkable for a winning Summoner to
still only be in the low 20s.

>I disagree, although I don't know what the code says about Int, the
>documentation indicates that Int is just useful for magic items and
>spellcasting. If Int increases magical resistance, or has some other
>benefit, the documentation makes no reference of that.

Strength's effect on a melee character's effectiveness is relatively
small compared to Intelligence's effect on a caster's effectiveness
(especially a hybrid caster).
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
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Martin Read

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Since: May 25, 2005
Posts: 1492



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

tenayatenaya.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>On Dec 30, 12:10=A0am, high fructose corn syrup <h....DeleteThis@ubeijing.edu>
>wrote:
>> If this is true, the documentation needs modification. Reading the
>> docs would lead any reasonable person to conclude that Str and Dex are
>> the best attributes and the most helpful.
>
>So, in the case of the three tutorial combinations (MiBe, DECo, CeHu),
>which stats should I increase?

Whichever is below 8. Once all are above 8, you should raise the MiBe's
Str (since you aren't going to be spellslinging), the DECj's Int, and...
I don't know about the hunter. It would depend on how you wanted to
develop the character. Str or Int.

>> Try a Hill Orc or Minotaur Beserker on for size, and exercise Unarmed
>
>For the case of a MiBe or Hill Orc, does having unarmed combat help
>after I start using a weapon? What if I didn't have any skill in UC
>and I used a weapon?

Unarmed combat does help with weapon-armed characters, especially if
you use a one-handed weapon with no shield. It is particularly effective
for minotaurs, who get a headbutt attack regardless of having a free
hand or not. (It's also easier to bootstrap Unarmed on an armed minotaur
than on an armed hill orc, since you get that headbutt happen noticeably
often even at Unarmed 0.)
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
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lemuel.pitkin

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Since: Aug 01, 2006
Posts: 93



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:44 am
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> Personally, because I am a packrat, I find Strength to be relevant as
> well, and Dex to be the only stat I ignore.

Even for packrats, Strength is not very relevant, though. If I'm
reading the code correctly, max encumbrance is equal to 3500 +100*Str;
you're encumbered at 5/6 this amount and overloaded at 11/12. So a
character with Strength 4 can carry three quarters as much as one with
Strength 18, and if your Strength is, say, 10, increasing it by a
point increases your carrying capacity by only about 2 percent --
hardly even noticeable.

This formula should be tweaked to make Strength more important, IMHO.

Lemuel
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Rachel Elizabeth Dillon

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Since: Apr 23, 2008
Posts: 318



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2008-12-30, high fructose corn syrup <hfcs RemoveThis @ubeijing.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 00:17:09 +0100, David Ploog
><ploog RemoveThis @mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>On Fri, 26 Dec 2008, high fructose corn syrup wrote:
>>> > 2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
>>> you or render your character next to unplayable.
>>
>>This is wrong.
>
> No, in this case, I am correct.

Well, you are wrong to say it WILL. But in this case I disagree with
David and say it _may_, such that using a deck (for me) is an incredibly
high-risk play and thus should be ignored if I am trying to win. While
I'm not a deck expert, I've tried them both with midgame Nemelexites and
non-Nemelexites and every time I have wished I had not used them and/or
had not chosen Nemelex. Whatever other people are getting out of decks,
I have never been able to make heads or tails of them.

(You can see why I have this feeling personally at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.misc/browse_thread/...ead/727
if you'd like to read about an absurd and stupid deck death.)

>>> Or deck of changes turns up a Shuffle card, and your Hill Orc Beserker
>>> now has a strength of 6 (formerly it was 27). Still worth continuing?
>>> Probably not. Forcing a character to suicide is kind of dark.
>>
>>Well, using decks means taking chances. In case your HOBe now has Int 27,
>>then it's Spellcasting, right. If all cards were unanimously positive,
>>it'd be a broken part of the game. Some are of double-edged (like the
>>Shuffle card). By the way, Shuffle is one of the few remaining cards from
>>4b26. Keeping it is our way to respect history.
>
> A Beserker with an Int of 27 has to renounce Trog to practice
> spellcasting, abandon heavy armor most likely, learn a new skill, et
> cetera. It's not impossible, no, but can you imagine the reaction of
> the player character? My solution is to never test an unidentified
> deck, and never use a deck of changes.

I'm with you on this (though still find Crawl a perfectly fine game,
and just ignore decks like I ignore gauzy fans or small boxes).

>>In case anyone is reading this -- it is wrong! Int is the only really
>>relevant stat at the moment (and yes, we are planning to change that, and
>>no, we're not planning to make Int irrelevant).
>
> I disagree, although I don't know what the code says about Int, the
> documentation indicates that Int is just useful for magic items and
> spellcasting. If Int increases magical resistance, or has some other
> benefit, the documentation makes no reference of that.

Magic items and spellcasting are a very big part of the game for people
who don't play Berzerkers. Smile For those characters, spellcasting is
highly relevant, and Int's bonuses to spellcasting are significant.
Personally, because I am a packrat, I find Strength to be relevant as
well, and Dex to be the only stat I ignore.

-r.
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high fructose corn syrup

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Since: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 4



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 02 Jan 2009 15:15:18 GMT, Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
<rachel.RemoveThis@akrasiac.org> wrote:

>On 2008-12-30, high fructose corn syrup <hfcs.RemoveThis@ubeijing.edu> wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 00:17:09 +0100, David Ploog
>><ploog.RemoveThis@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 26 Dec 2008, high fructose corn syrup wrote:
>>>> > 2. Don't dare draw a card you don't know. A deck of cards will KILL
>>>> you or render your character next to unplayable.
>>>
>>>This is wrong.
>>
>> No, in this case, I am correct.
>
>Well, you are wrong to say it WILL. But in this case I disagree with
>David and say it _may_, such that using a deck (for me) is an incredibly
>high-risk play and thus should be ignored if I am trying to win. While
>I'm not a deck expert, I've tried them both with midgame Nemelexites and
>non-Nemelexites and every time I have wished I had not used them and/or
>had not chosen Nemelex. Whatever other people are getting out of decks,
>I have never been able to make heads or tails of them.

Agreed.

btw, I'm not sure how my thread began with a long list of likes and a
few (actually quite minor) dislikes, into a competitive mode of trying
to sort out who's right or wrong and whether I am an experienced
player or not, or stupid or whatever but perhaps that is par for the
course among Crawlers or anyone who is a big fan of a highly
competitive, kill-or-be-killed game such as chess and crawl.

>(You can see why I have this feeling personally at
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.misc/browse_thread/thread/727f37aec683eb2b
>if you'd like to read about an absurd and stupid deck death.)

Ordinarily I would but I've had more than my share of stupid deck
deaths (at least half a dozen) and know enough to approach decks with
considerable trepediation. I can't swear decks off totally though
because they can cure mutations and do many other pleasant things. I
just think it is important to identify them before use. And (S)ave,
lol (oops, opening up a potential can o' worms...)

>> A Beserker with an Int of 27 has to renounce Trog to practice
>> spellcasting, abandon heavy armor most likely, learn a new skill, et
>> cetera. It's not impossible, no, but can you imagine the reaction of
>> the player character? My solution is to never test an unidentified
>> deck, and never use a deck of changes.
>
>I'm with you on this (though still find Crawl a perfectly fine game,
>and just ignore decks like I ignore gauzy fans or small boxes).

Yup me too, that small ebony casket or whatever, weighs too much for
the bang it delivers. And my beserkers just don't Summon very well.

>Magic items and spellcasting are a very big part of the game for people
>who don't play Berzerkers. Smile For those characters, spellcasting is
>highly relevant, and Int's bonuses to spellcasting are significant.
>Personally, because I am a packrat, I find Strength to be relevant as
>well, and Dex to be the only stat I ignore.

I guess that's the key to what the coders are telling me. I hope it is
because for all my fighting characters I always emphasize Str and Dex
increases. Their little hints had me worrying that Int conveys some
kind of additional benefit other than spellcasting / magic items.
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Since: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 4



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 30 Dec 2008 18:54:26 +0000 (GMT), Martin Read
<mpread.TakeThisOut@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>acedia@ubeijing.edu wrote:
>>Unless the game balance is changed, I still believe fighters are
>>better. But this is a matter of preference. With my fighters, the game
>>is more like Dungeons and Rabbits. It's fun but not really hard at
>>all.
>
>For a mortal-runes-only win, I'm not sure *anything* is easier than a
>summoner. It is not all *that* remarkable for a winning Summoner to
>still only be in the low 20s.

I do like Summoners and among all spellcasters they may be the most
powerful, due mainly to Summon Scorpions which will see most through
level 15, and Shadow Creatures for the levels thereafter... it is
quite entertaining to let others do the fighting for you. But with a
Summoner, Blink is more than ever important in case a monster slips
through the bodyguards.

>>I disagree, although I don't know what the code says about Int, the
>>documentation indicates that Int is just useful for magic items and
>>spellcasting. If Int increases magical resistance, or has some other
>>benefit, the documentation makes no reference of that.
>
>Strength's effect on a melee character's effectiveness is relatively
>small compared to Intelligence's effect on a caster's effectiveness
>(especially a hybrid caster).

Thanks for the info. Could you give me a rundown on Dex as well? Are
the benefits minor for that too? I much appreciated your note
elsewhere to increase all atrribs to above 8 to avoid penalties. Will
increasing Int on a Beserker help magical resistance or anything else
that might be useful to a pure fighter?
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Since: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 4



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Things I like (and dislike) about the new(er) versions of SS Dungeon Crawl [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 30 Dec 2008 21:22:04 +0000 (GMT), Martin Read
<mpread RemoveThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>tenayatenaya@gmail.com wrote:
>>On Dec 30, 12:10=A0am, high fructose corn syrup <h... RemoveThis @ubeijing.edu>
>>wrote:
>>> If this is true, the documentation needs modification. Reading the
>>> docs would lead any reasonable person to conclude that Str and Dex are
>>> the best attributes and the most helpful.
>>
>>So, in the case of the three tutorial combinations (MiBe, DECo, CeHu),
>>which stats should I increase?
>
>Whichever is below 8. Once all are above 8, you should raise the MiBe's
>Str (since you aren't going to be spellslinging), the DECj's Int, and...
>I don't know about the hunter. It would depend on how you wanted to
>develop the character. Str or Int.

I suppose you recommend increasing Int above 8 in order to increase
the ability of a figher to employ magic items.

>>> Try a Hill Orc or Minotaur Beserker on for size, and exercise Unarmed
>>
>>For the case of a MiBe or Hill Orc, does having unarmed combat help
>>after I start using a weapon? What if I didn't have any skill in UC
>>and I used a weapon?
>
>Unarmed combat does help with weapon-armed characters, especially if
>you use a one-handed weapon with no shield. It is particularly effective
>for minotaurs, who get a headbutt attack regardless of having a free
>hand or not. (It's also easier to bootstrap Unarmed on an armed minotaur
>than on an armed hill orc, since you get that headbutt happen noticeably
>often even at Unarmed 0.)

I am pleased to read confirmation of my suppositions from a coder.

I also meant to add that as any character of whatever race, I also
like to emphasize Fighting skill. This is just as important if not
more so than unarmed combat, because it will increase hit points.

There is no point training in a specific weapon until you find a good
gem. I do not define what that is, because it varies based on weapon
type and is very subjective. If you find one that you really like the
looks of, train in it and use that type exclusively. Switching weapon
types in mid-game is inefficient and should only be done if you find a
much superior weapon.

When I played a Deep Elf Air Elementalist, I trained in Fighting until
I found a staff of air which is the perfect weapon for such a
character. It is even better than a staff of conjuration because it
has a special attack. After that I allowed some training in staves,
only because the deep elf learned Fighting at a retarded pace and has
better aptitude for learning Staves.
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