TL Tedium

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:38:16 +0000, mike
<mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:34:15 -0500, Kent Allard
><evil.TakeThisOut@hearts_of_men.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <jedbj491ui05ntgk6u7k400s5fukntdiv5.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
>> mike <mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
>>> proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
>>> are in possession of superior knowledge.
>>
>>That you know? Or that your character knows?
>Trick question, all that matters is the characters
>knowledge. They are always more capable than me
>>
>>> To me having a higher native TL is that position.
>>> And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
>>> knowledge?
>>
>>It not a penalty, it's an Advantage. B23.
>>
>>High TL 5 points/TL above campaign TL
>>
>>Your personal TL is above that of the campaign world. You may enter play with
>>skills relating to equipment up to your personal TL. This is most useful if you
>>also have access to high-TL equipment (see Tech Level and Equipment, p. 27), but
>>the knowledge of a high-tech doctor or scientist can be very useful in a
>>low-tech setting, even without specialized equipment!
>
>Now this looks like having it both ways, <grrr> just when i
>thought it was sorta making some logic.
>Okay of what use is a 'high-tech doctor or scientist' when
>they have a TL penalty to use their skills ?

They don't. A TL 8 doctor in a TL 3 environment is not practicing TL
3 medicine even if he's lost all of his junk. He's still practicing
TL 8 medicine without adequate equipment, no different from what his
situation would be if he was just experiencing a medical crisis while,
say, on a transatlantic flight or a camping trip.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:39:51 +0000, mike
<mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:46:10 GMT, David Johnston
><david.TakeThisOut@block.net> wrote:
>
><<#>> mik >>
>>>Err, this i do have a problem with.
>>>To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
>>>proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
>>>are in possession of superior knowledge.
>>>To me having a higher native TL is that position.
>>>And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
>>>knowledge?
>
>David >
>>No. GURPS gives you a penalty for not having certain knowledge. Being
>>an auto mechanic does not mean you are expert in steam engines.
>
>An expert? No; but if you don' t follow the principle behind
>a steam engine you'd be a lousy mechanic.
>Isn't it taught in school as part of Mechanical engineering?

There is a gulf between principle and practise.

>
>>Being a factory assembly line worker does not mean
>>that you know how to flint-knap.
>But you could be better at it than the engineer, it might
>even be close to what you have done before.
>(What is it?)

The art of making tools like knives and axes out of chipped flint.

>
>>Of course just because you are TL8 does not mean that you
>>can't know how to fix TL 5 steam engines or flint-knap, having learned
>>how as a hobby, and it doesn't mean that you have any particular
>>difficulty in learning them, even the IQ based ones, after you arrive
>>in a enivronment where they are needed.
>>
>>(Note that Wild Card skils are the way to produce a character who
>>really can fix anything and has no penalties for TL)
>
>I can understand new terminology (or terms used in an
>unexpected way) confusing a person from a lower TL, even
>them doing things the 'hard way' since it's what they know.
>But a person from a higher TL might be able to get more out
>of the same resources (tools) than the locals, simply
>because they know some of their TL assumptions are wrong, or
>that it never occurred to them it was possible.

He might. He might even be able to raise their TL (in fact if it's
only one TL difference he almost certainly will). But if you think
there isn't a lot that a TL 8 metallurgist doesn't know about the
hands on work of a TL 4 blacksmith, you are sorely mistaken.

mike wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:32:14 +0100, Tobias Heidelmann
> <tobias.heidelmann.TakeThisOut@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
> <<<#>>>
>> Take a secretary. TL7 (or even 6, i am not sure and i am too lazy to
>> look up in which TL typewriters were standard): Typewriter, TL8:
>> Office-Software.
>>
>> True, the basic skill is the same, writing words using a keyboard.
>> However there are tons of subtle differences. I think a TL7 secretary
>> working in a TL8 environment would have a lot of trouble figuring out
>> how to start a new document, how to print it, that it can be stored for
>> later retrieval, that pictures are no real problem anymore, etc. So, a
>> penalty is in order.
>
> Uphill is a lot harder than downhill, but I’d say if it's
> named as the same skill then surely it's more related than
> not?
>
>> A TL8 secretary in a TL7 environment would have as much trouble. She
>> knows more about computers and has in this regard superior knowledge.
>> But she knows virtually nothing about the working techniques without a
>> computer. She could type well, but she would be much slower and after a
>> short while her fingers would start aching because she is not used to
>> hard typewriters. She would have considerable trouble correcting
>> spelling mistakes und introducing pictures into the documents. Changing
>> the ink ( in dont know the english name of that thing in a typewriter
>> that stores the ink) would likely be difficult. So, a penalty is in order.
>
> Well, I’d suggest that this is ideal time for a few Int
> rolls. I agree it would take longer than having someone
> familiar with the tools, but this isn't likely to be a major
> task in a game (if it ever would turn up in one!) so they
> could take the time, and a penalty due to a few failed Int
> rolls might make more sense, i certainly think it fairer
> than a flat handicap.
>
> There seems to be a 'this is totally alien device' view here
> that is unfair, imo, it is not created for another species
> in another language, after all.
>
>> As a conclusion, the characters are not penalized for superior
>> knowledge, but for lack of knowledge about working precedures of a lower TL.
>> Tobias
>
> If it were a utterly new thing (to the character) then
> perhaps I could agree. But this is an ancestor device
> (typewriter) and you should be able to fathom it out okay.
> I just don't think it qualifies as Mensa.
>
You do realize that typewriters require you to press the return key on
electric versions or to actually move the carriage with manual
typewriters? If you have only used a word processor on a computer you
might be trying to figure out why the keys suddenly quit responding.
And if you use an early electric typewriter hitting the return key can
be quite a shock when it slams to the left and everything jumps. And
then there is the problem of erasing using either the built-in
correction tape or having to use an eraser pencil or white-out. And
totally forget about cutting and pasting to reformat the document. This
along with most modern typists not having the strength in their fingers
for a manual typewriter, especially for the 'a' key.
All these can be worked around by the TL 8 secretary but it is going to
take time and lower their efficiency for awhile.


> mik

mike schrieb:

> If it were a utterly new thing (to the character) then
> perhaps I could agree. But this is an ancestor device
> (typewriter) and you should be able to fathom it out okay.
> I just don't think it qualifies as Mensa.
>
> mik

it is not about figuring out how to use it, but to use it in practice.

Yes, the TL8 secretary will know that when she hits a button on the
typewriter, a lever presses a metal letter against the ink stuff and
produces a printed letter on paper. That is the theory and everybody
will figure that out. But actually writing a letter at top speed is a
totally different matter. her effective skill will decrease. If you
somehow still stubbornly refuse to believe that, try using an old
typewriter for your next letter instead of sending an email. And see how
fast you can type.

Tobias.

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:55:57 GMT, David Johnston <david.TakeThisOut@block.net>
wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:34:33 -0500, David Alex Lamb
><dalamb.TakeThisOut@cs.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
>>Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>>>>>>>> "c" == copeab@yahoo com <copeab.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>> c> On Dec 1, 5:13 pm, Charlton Wilbur <cwil....TakeThisOut@chromatico.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> How would someone accustomed to pencil and slide rule handle an
>>> >> Apple II the first time he or she saw it? That's TL6 to TL7, and
>>> >> the equipment is superior.
>>>
>>> c> What if, instead of a computer, it was a calculator?
>>>
>>> Sure! Hand 'em an HP-35 (introduced 1972), and see how quickly they
>>> figure it out.
>>
>>Actually the first pocket calculator was a big seller exactly because
>>the slide rule users recognized immediately that it gave them exactly
>>what they needed. I'm willing to believe a lot of subtleties would take
>>a while to learn, but the stuff that directly replaced slide rules,
>>they'd figure out fast.
>
>But of course there is no skill for operating a calculator. All you
>use is math and the math the calculators were doing wasn't different
>from the math the slide-rule jockeys were using.

This is an interface problem. A slide rule is not intuitive while a
basic calculator is.

Take the Wright brothers and drop them into a cockpit of a jet
fighter, then drop them into an ultra-light. Both are TL 7 do they get
the same penalty to try and fly them? No... the /TL skills and
penalties can not be taken as absolutes.

The DM has to use some commen sense...

Hand me some metal shears and a piece of sheet metal and ask me to
make an arrow head, no problem. Hand me a piece of flint and a rock
and I'll look at you like your insane.


--

Grant

On 2008-12-03, mike <mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:34:15 -0500, Kent Allard
><evil.TakeThisOut@hearts_of_men.net> wrote:
>>
>>Your personal TL is above that of the campaign world. You may enter play with
>>skills relating to equipment up to your personal TL. This is most useful if you
>>also have access to high-TL equipment (see Tech Level and Equipment, p. 27), but
>>the knowledge of a high-tech doctor or scientist can be very useful in a
>>low-tech setting, even without specialized equipment!
>
> Now this looks like having it both ways, <grrr> just when i
> thought it was sorta making some logic.
> Okay of what use is a 'high-tech doctor or scientist' when
> they have a TL penalty to use their skills ?
> 'even without specialized equipment!' implies they don't.
> .....doesn't it?

A TL8 doctor who administers first aid will restore 1d HP to you in 10
minutes while a TL3 "doctor" doing the same would restore 1d-3 HP in
30 minutes (B424).

Those rules go on to specify a number of advantages that a high TL
doctor would have wrt medical care when compared to their lower TL
colleagues. They also go into some of the details of missing high-tech
equipment, when it matters and when it does not (so much).

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.TakeThisOut@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

On 2008-12-03, mike <mikespam DeleteThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Well, I’d suggest that this is ideal time for a few Int
> rolls. I agree it would take longer than having someone
> familiar with the tools, but this isn't likely to be a major
> task in a game (if it ever would turn up in one!) so they
> could take the time, and a penalty due to a few failed Int
> rolls might make more sense, i certainly think it fairer
> than a flat handicap.

The handicap for using an item one TL below your own is -1 (B168).
Furthermore, spending twice the normal time to complete a non-combat
task gives a +1 bonus (B346) - effectively eliminating the -1 TL gap.

So, what is the big deal? I would rather just go with the -1 penalty
or twice time expenditure than spend game time rolling IQ all over the
place.

"You start to type the report but things are a bit awkward what with
not having undo, floating image boxes and whatnot so things aren't
turning out as swell as they might have."

This seems unreasonable how exactly?

"Ok, you take an extra hour to retype a few paragraphs and smooth out
some other rough edges and you're quite pleased with the result."

Again, why is this unreasonable?

> There seems to be a 'this is totally alien device' view here
> that is unfair, imo, it is not created for another species
> in another language, after all.

Generally speaking, an alien device created for a different species in
a different language would not give a -1 penalty.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd DeleteThis @pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:45:33 +0100, Tobias Heidelmann
<tobias.heidelmann DeleteThis @alice-dsl.net> wrote:

<<<#>>>
>somehow still stubbornly refuse to believe that, try using an old
>typewriter for your next letter instead of sending an email. And see how
>fast you can type.
>
>Tobias.

He he, i have an 'unfair' advantage with that, i have owned
all three, pure manual typewriter, electric and 'puter with
word processor program
Sadly, I’m also a bit dyslexic, so i prefer the computer
because it compensates for my failings.

Mike : -)

>And see how fast you can type.
Anyhow, what's the rush ?

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:08:04 +0000 (UTC), Bent C Dalager
<bcd RemoveThis @pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:

>On 2008-12-03, mike <mikespam RemoveThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I’d suggest that this is ideal time for a few Int
>> rolls. I agree it would take longer than having someone
>> familiar with the tools, but this isn't likely to be a major
>> task in a game (if it ever would turn up in one!) so they
>> could take the time, and a penalty due to a few failed Int
>> rolls might make more sense, i certainly think it fairer
>> than a flat handicap.
>
>The handicap for using an item one TL below your own is -1 (B168).
>Furthermore, spending twice the normal time to complete a non-combat
>task gives a +1 bonus (B346) - effectively eliminating the -1 TL gap.
>
>So, what is the big deal? I would rather just go with the -1 penalty
>or twice time expenditure than spend game time rolling IQ all over the
>place.

Not a 'big deal' as such, more that it's bugging me as i
can't quite rationalize it. Not properly anyway.

>
>"You start to type the report but things are a bit awkward what with
>not having undo, floating image boxes and whatnot so things aren't
>turning out as swell as they might have."
>
>This seems unreasonable how exactly?

If all you are attempting is well within the realm of a
normal typewriter, you would not need most/all of that.
Most of that is DTP and let's not go there.

>"Ok, you take an extra hour to retype a few paragraphs and smooth out
>some other rough edges and you're quite pleased with the result."
>
>Again, why is this unreasonable?
>
Not unreasonable, in fact i said somewhere that you would
expect to be slower, but not necessarily worse.
Which could be that minus.
It's not the magnitude of the penalty, it is its existance
that's sand in my gears.

>> There seems to be a 'this is totally alien device' view here
>> that is unfair, imo, it is not created for another species
>> in another language, after all.
>
>Generally speaking, an alien device created for a different species in
>a different language would not give a -1 penalty.

No, but to have to buy the skill for each TL you intend to
visit seems very unjustified.

>Cheers,
> Bent D
Thanks,
mike

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:59:15 GMT, David Johnston
<david.DeleteThis@block.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:13:06 +0000, mike
><mikespam.DeleteThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>As a conclusion, the characters are not penalized for superior
>>>knowledge, but for lack of knowledge about working precedures of a lower TL.
>>>Tobias
>>
>>If it were a utterly new thing (to the character) then
>>perhaps I could agree. But this is an ancestor device
>>(typewriter) and you should be able to fathom it out okay.
>
>You do realise that the penalty is tiny for only one level down,
>right? It's just a -1 and only when actually dealing with obsolete
>technology that you need to understand. A penalty that small is
>effectively unnoticeable unless the character is only marginally
>competent to start with. It's far from unfathomable.

If that is so, why should it become a new skill that must be
paid for like any other?
It's not the magnitude of the penalty, but its existence
that i have a problem understanding.
(And that minus could be the difference between success and
failure.)
No, that it takes more time makes sense, it's all new after
all. But that it reduces your skill does not, imo.

thanks,
mik

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:43:57 GMT, David Johnston
<david DeleteThis @block.net> wrote:
<<<#>>>
>He might. He might even be able to raise their TL (in fact if it's
>only one TL difference he almost certainly will).

Nice to know!

>But if you think
>there isn't a lot that a TL 8 metallurgist doesn't know about the
>hands on work of a TL 4 blacksmith, you are sorely mistaken.

That's very good! I had to go and think a bit.
So let me ask, would you ever have a TL8 metallurgist act
like a TL 4 blacksmith? The only reason i can think of is to
trick a third party into assuming they belong there.
Otherwise the would act as they are, at TL8, and work in a
different manner to achieve the same results.
If the TL 8 metallurgist were to talk to the TL 4 blacksmith
to explain what he wanted and a way to get to it the
blacksmith would assume he was a genius, and had the
competence to work the forge himself.
I would assume that too, myself, i think.
True, he would be surprised at the lack of horseshoe
expertise !

thanks,
mik

In article <2kigj4pqgh236u60nll2bleohj4eoe1kpk.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
mike <mikespam.RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> No, but to have to buy the skill for each TL you intend to
> visit seems very unjustified.

Bah. It's totally justified.

Think back to Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where superbrain from the future,
Scotty, is shown a computer. But it won't take his voice commands. Shown a
mouse, he speaks into that...

Spock can't turn off a boom box, so he turns off the boom box owner.

If you want to use something EFFECTIVELY in all it's different forms, you need
training or take the penalties.

Seems to me the sand in your gears is that you don't want to do math...

If the TL8 expects this manual typewriter to do all the
things a DTP prog is made for then fire 'em quick

>All these can be worked around by the TL 8 secretary but it is going to
>take time and lower their efficiency for awhile.

Lower the efficiency is fine, but i don't see as it
translates into lowering skill, or even worthy of being
dubbed a different skill.
Take Computer Programming, that uses keyboard skills.
Should they get 'Typing: Word processor' skill by proxy?