TL Tedium

Hello All,

I'd like to thank you all for your helping me get my head
around this concept, i never expected so many would

I think Ben Finney here as found the cause of my
difficulty...

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:48:21 +1100, Ben Finney
<bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:

>mike <mikespam.DeleteThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Why should a character have to take a set of otherwise identical
>> skills, in order to work without penalty in various environments?
>
>This seems to be near the core of your misunderstanding. GURPS TL
>doesn't represent "different environments"; it represents changes in
>the underlying technology, and hence the techniques used to employ
>that technology.

This is not quite what i meant, "various environments" would
in this case be places that have different TLs, possibly due
to the character time travelling, or having real areas that
have evolved at different rates after being separated.

>You seem to be under the misapprehension that the difference between,
>say, a TL7 medical skill and a TL8 medical skill is just a matter of
>"doing it better" somehow. It's rather that the *entire field* is
>different between tech levels, with enormous ramifications for the
>technology, equipment, materials, and the very procedures used.

Yes! This is the cause of my headache, or close enough.
To me, a tech level advances over time.
The prior works done are the foundations on which the next
are built.
Occasionally some new knowledge shows a problem with the
basic foundations, but this doesn't mean it doesn't work
anymore. Likewise a revelation shows another way to work and
helps 'firm' a new foundation.

>Technology doesn't just churn forward monotonically; it *surges* at
>different times and in different fields, with massive broad innovation
>at times and plateaus of stagnation at other times.

All true, i have no problem with this.

>GURPS abstracts
>this into tech levels for the purposes of making a playable game that
>still represents the astonishing fundamental differences in technology
>within the same field at different levels.

Err, this i do have a problem with.
To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
are in possession of superior knowledge.
To me having a higher native TL is that position.
And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
knowledge?

>If you want to play a game where technology isn't significantly
>different in different times,

Well, since i see it as advancing with time, I’d have to do
something differently. Perhaps it will never happen

>feel free to ignore TL-based skill differences; but don't imagine
>that you're somehow getting closer to
>reality if you do that.

At least i now know why I’m having trouble with this,
Another branch on this thread introduced the machinist at 6
and 7.
The primary difference between the two looks like the
computerisation of the job. Indeed it look like a theme with
just about all the skills.
(Chips with everything, and anything! )

For myself, i see this as converting the task to the
computers domain, removing most/all of the skill involved.
So, are these easier to learn ?

Thanks for your help, i think i finally understand the
'why'.
I just don't agree with it

mik

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:53:43 -0500, Kent Allard
<evil.RemoveThis@hearts_of_men.net> wrote:
<<#>>
>Try reading the Time Patrol stories of Poul Anderson. He makes good use of the
>disparaging Tech Levels to tell his stories, and points out that time agents can
>only work in a certain range of eras close to their originating time line to be
>able to work effectively (and these agents are able to have data dumped into
>their brains a la GURPS Chip Slots).
<<<#>>>
>Life is realistic, but not very GURPS-like. GURPS is generous.
>
>Check out familiarity on page 169.

Thanks for the pointers, i will look them up later. Probably
on the weekend, or a weekend anyway.

copeab.DeleteThis@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Dec 1, 5:07 pm, "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwry....DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>> mike wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:31:24 GMT, "Michael W.
>>> Ryder" <_mwry....DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>> <<#>>
>>>> And how easy would it be for you to use a black powder revolver, or a
>>>> matchlock pistol?
>>> At the same difficulty as it would if i were TL 3,
>>> 6 2 or 8 or any other.
>> The point was that some of the skill is knowing how to load the weapon,
>> clean and repair it, not just point and fire. A person familiar with a
>> TL7 pistol is going to have some problems using a matchlock pistol
>> beyond just figuring out it's ballistics.
>
> What about the difference between using a 1873 Colt Peacemaker and a
> 1990 Colt Anaconda (chambered for .45 Colt)? The TL7 gun is arguably
> the easier weapon to load and clean, but the guy from 1873 has a
> bigger penalty to use it than the 1990 guy has to use the Peacemaker.
>

Of course this brings up the problem with making a TL x item in TL x+y.
Even though they were made in different tech levels according to GURPS
they are not that different. You couldn't use the shells from the
Anaconda in the Peacemaker safely, even if they fit, but the basic
loading and cleaning are the same. The person familiar with the
Peacemaker and black powder shells is going to be in for a shock the
first time he tries the Anaconda, and imagine if he tried a Super
Blackhawk or one of the other high power pistols.
In this case I would just say that they have to get used to the
ballistics and will have to get used to the handling when trying snap
shots, etc. I don't think I would worry about normal maintenance unless
they use the wrong shells in the pistol.


> Btandon

>>>>> "DAL" == David Alex Lamb <dalamb.TakeThisOut@cs.queensu.ca> writes:

DAL> Actually the first pocket calculator was a big seller exactly
DAL> because the slide rule users recognized immediately that it
DAL> gave them exactly what they needed. I'm willing to believe a
DAL> lot of subtleties would take a while to learn, but the stuff
DAL> that directly replaced slide rules, they'd figure out fast.

Exactly! So there would be some confusion at first, and it would
probably be more difficult to use right off (i.e., a penalty to using a
skill learned at TL6 with TL7 tools), but once the person had enough
experience to figure it out (i.e., had learned the skill at TL7 as well
as TL6), he would be able to function just fine.

Charlton


--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur.TakeThisOut@chromatico.net

Charlton Wilbur wrote:

> How would someone accustomed to pencil and slide rule handle an Apple II
> the first time he or she saw it? That's TL6 to TL7, and the equipment
> is superior.
Slide rule is not TL6 it was invented in 1621 (TL4) according to GURPS
all people of 18C to 20C should take a healthy negative modifier when
using it how ridiculous as it is the dominant tech of those eras.
Lots of things that are Considered "TL6/7" are in fact much earlier in
design. A revolver after its initial phase of design modification
(single action/double action - percussion cap/ cartridge) should not
be considered of a tech level difference from dominant tech or to the
dominant tech as long as the design stays common. Automatic pistols
introduced around the turn of the 20th century, would initially cause
some problems to a person familiar with revolvers mainly due to their
autofire and how to cock them. But as to having drastic negatives to
hit with them is ridiculous.
Nick

On Dec 2, 6:24 pm, "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwry....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> cop....RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Dec 1, 5:07 pm, "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwry....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net>
> > wrote:
> >> mike wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:31:24 GMT, "Michael W.
> >>> Ryder" <_mwry....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>> <<#>>
> >>>> And how easy would it be for you to use a black powder revolver, or a
> >>>> matchlock pistol?
> >>> At the same difficulty as it would if i were TL 3,
> >>> 6 2 or 8 or any other.
> >> The point was that some of the skill is knowing how to load the weapon,
> >> clean and repair it, not just point and fire.  A person familiar with a
> >> TL7 pistol is going to have some problems using a matchlock pistol
> >> beyond just figuring out it's ballistics.
>
> > What about the difference between using a 1873 Colt Peacemaker and a
> > 1990 Colt Anaconda (chambered for .45 Colt)? The TL7 gun is arguably
> > the easier weapon to load and clean, but the guy from 1873 has a
> > bigger penalty to use it than the 1990 guy has to use the Peacemaker.
>
> Of course this brings up the problem with making a TL x item in TL x+y.
>   Even though they were made in different tech levels according to GURPS
> they are not that different.  You couldn't use the shells from the
> Anaconda in the Peacemaker safely, even if they fit, but the basic
> loading and cleaning are the same.  The person familiar with the
> Peacemaker and black powder shells is going to be in for a shock the
> first time he tries the Anaconda, and imagine if he tried a Super
> Blackhawk or one of the other high power pistols.
> In this case I would just say that they have to get used to the
> ballistics and will have to get used to the handling when trying snap
> shots, etc.  I don't think I would worry about normal maintenance unless
> they use the wrong shells in the pistol.

Some technology is simple, reliable, and works well enough that it
stays in use for many TLs, perhaps indefinitely. Simple pistols are a
good example of that.

But image the guy from 1873 gets ahold of one of those new guns that
has biometric locking. He'll have no idea what the d*mn thing doesn't
work. Or better yet hand him a modern assault rifle with all the
electronic dohickeys hanging off it. He might figure out how to shoot
it but never figure out how to use all the electronics and sights.

Cars are a good example going the other way. I doubt most people
today could get an old car started. A lot of people look at you
blankly if you mention a "choke" for instance. Heck, I bet most
people couldn't even drive a car with a manual clutch any more.

In article <jedbj491ui05ntgk6u7k400s5fukntdiv5 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
mike <mikespam DeleteThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
> proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
> are in possession of superior knowledge.

That you know? Or that your character knows?

> To me having a higher native TL is that position.
> And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
> knowledge?

It not a penalty, it's an Advantage. B23.

High TL 5 points/TL above campaign TL

Your personal TL is above that of the campaign world. You may enter play with
skills relating to equipment up to your personal TL. This is most useful if you
also have access to high-TL equipment (see Tech Level and Equipment, p. 27), but
the knowledge of a high-tech doctor or scientist can be very useful in a
low-tech setting, even without specialized equipment!

David Alex Lamb wrote:

> Actually the first pocket calculator was a big seller exactly because
> the slide rule users recognized immediately that it gave them exactly
> what they needed.
Side note: and business calculators bombed because accountants and loans
managers didn't understand why they'd be useful -- until they started
being out-argued by yuppies with such calculators saying things like
"you should be able to give X more Y's because of amortization over Z
years" (sorry, total financial dunce, aside from "don't spend what you
don't have, unless it's a house")

mike schrieb:

>> GURPS abstracts
>> this into tech levels for the purposes of making a playable game that
>> still represents the astonishing fundamental differences in technology
>> within the same field at different levels.
>
> Err, this i do have a problem with.
> To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
> proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
> are in possession of superior knowledge.
> To me having a higher native TL is that position.
> And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
> knowledge?
>
It is not only knowledge, but a general familiarity with the knowledge
from a practical point of view.

Another example from the domain of Computers (because this is the most
striking improvement in recent TL development and the only one we can
REALLY understand because we have first hand experience with it):

Take a secretary. TL7 (or even 6, i am not sure and i am too lazy to
look up in which TL typewriters were standard): Typewriter, TL8:
Office-Software.

True, the basic skill is the same, writing words using a keyboard.
However there are tons of subtle differences. I think a TL7 secretary
working in a TL8 environment would have a lot of trouble figuring out
how to start a new document, how to print it, that it can be stored for
later retrieval, that pictures are no real problem anymore, etc. So, a
penalty is in order.

A TL8 secretary in a TL7 environment would have as much trouble. She
knows more about computers and has in this regard superior knowledge.
But she knows virtually nothing about the working techniques without a
computer. She could type well, but she would be much slower and after a
short while her fingers would start aching because she is not used to
hard typewriters. She would have considerable trouble correcting
spelling mistakes und introducing pictures into the documents. Changing
the ink ( in dont know the english name of that thing in a typewriter
that stores the ink) would likely be difficult. So, a penalty is in order.

As a conclusion, the characters are not penalized for superior
knowledge, but for lack of knowledge about working precedures of a lower TL.

Tobias

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:31:42 +0000, mike
<mikespam.RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>Hello All,
>
> I'd like to thank you all for your helping me get my head
>around this concept, i never expected so many would
>
>I think Ben Finney here as found the cause of my
>difficulty...
>
>On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:48:21 +1100, Ben Finney
><bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>
>>mike <mikespam.RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> Why should a character have to take a set of otherwise identical
>>> skills, in order to work without penalty in various environments?
>>
>>This seems to be near the core of your misunderstanding. GURPS TL
>>doesn't represent "different environments"; it represents changes in
>>the underlying technology, and hence the techniques used to employ
>>that technology.
>
>This is not quite what i meant, "various environments" would
>in this case be places that have different TLs, possibly due
>to the character time travelling, or having real areas that
>have evolved at different rates after being separated.
>
>>You seem to be under the misapprehension that the difference between,
>>say, a TL7 medical skill and a TL8 medical skill is just a matter of
>>"doing it better" somehow. It's rather that the *entire field* is
>>different between tech levels, with enormous ramifications for the
>>technology, equipment, materials, and the very procedures used.
>
>Yes! This is the cause of my headache, or close enough.
>To me, a tech level advances over time.
>The prior works done are the foundations on which the next
>are built.
>Occasionally some new knowledge shows a problem with the
>basic foundations, but this doesn't mean it doesn't work
>anymore. Likewise a revelation shows another way to work and
>helps 'firm' a new foundation.
>
>>Technology doesn't just churn forward monotonically; it *surges* at
>>different times and in different fields, with massive broad innovation
>>at times and plateaus of stagnation at other times.
>
>All true, i have no problem with this.
>
>>GURPS abstracts
>>this into tech levels for the purposes of making a playable game that
>>still represents the astonishing fundamental differences in technology
>>within the same field at different levels.
>
>Err, this i do have a problem with.
>To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
>proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
>are in possession of superior knowledge.
>To me having a higher native TL is that position.
>And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
>knowledge?

No. GURPS gives you a penalty for not having certain knowledge. Being
an auto mechanic does not mean you are expert in steam engines. Being
a factory assembly line worker does not mean that you know how to
flint-knap. Of course just because you are TL8 does not mean that you
can't know how to fix TL 5 steam engines or flint-knap, having learned
how as a hobby, and it doesn't mean that you have any particular
difficulty in learning them, even the IQ based ones, after you arrive
in a enivronment where they are needed.

(Note that Wild Card skils are the way to produce a character who
really can fix anything and has no penalties for TL)



>At least i now know why I’m having trouble with this,
>Another branch on this thread introduced the machinist at 6
>and 7.
>The primary difference between the two looks like the
>computerisation of the job. Indeed it look like a theme with
>just about all the skills.
> (Chips with everything, and anything! )
>
>For myself, i see this as converting the task to the
>computers domain, removing most/all of the skill involved.
>So, are these easier to learn ?

The standard to which you are expected to perform becomes higher, so
it's more a matter of more impressive results than being easier to
learn.

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 04:34:58 -0800 (PST), seatonstomb.DeleteThis@googlemail.com
wrote:

>Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>
>> How would someone accustomed to pencil and slide rule handle an Apple II
>> the first time he or she saw it? That's TL6 to TL7, and the equipment
>> is superior.
>Slide rule is not TL6 it was invented in 1621 (TL4) according to GURPS
>all people of 18C to 20C should take a healthy negative modifier when
>using it how ridiculous as it is the dominant tech of those eras.

They don't. There is no "slide rule operation" skill. Even if there
was, it would be just as available to people of a higher TL where it
is still being used. The penalty is determined not from the time when
a technology is introduced, but from when it is abandoned.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:34:15 -0500, Kent Allard
<evil DeleteThis @hearts_of_men.net> wrote:

>In article <jedbj491ui05ntgk6u7k400s5fukntdiv5 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
> mike <mikespam DeleteThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> To me, If you are in a position that you know 'x' has been
>> proven, but nobody else about you is aware of that fact, you
>> are in possession of superior knowledge.
>
>That you know? Or that your character knows?
Trick question, all that matters is the characters
knowledge. They are always more capable than me
>
>> To me having a higher native TL is that position.
>> And Gurps gives you a penalty for having that extra
>> knowledge?
>
>It not a penalty, it's an Advantage. B23.
>
>High TL 5 points/TL above campaign TL
>
>Your personal TL is above that of the campaign world. You may enter play with
>skills relating to equipment up to your personal TL. This is most useful if you
>also have access to high-TL equipment (see Tech Level and Equipment, p. 27), but
>the knowledge of a high-tech doctor or scientist can be very useful in a
>low-tech setting, even without specialized equipment!

Now this looks like having it both ways, <grrr> just when i
thought it was sorta making some logic.
Okay of what use is a 'high-tech doctor or scientist' when
they have a TL penalty to use their skills ?
'even without specialized equipment!' implies they don't.
......doesn't it?

mike

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:32:14 +0100, Tobias Heidelmann
<tobias.heidelmann.TakeThisOut@alice-dsl.net> wrote:

<<<#>>>
>Take a secretary. TL7 (or even 6, i am not sure and i am too lazy to
>look up in which TL typewriters were standard): Typewriter, TL8:
>Office-Software.
>
>True, the basic skill is the same, writing words using a keyboard.
>However there are tons of subtle differences. I think a TL7 secretary
>working in a TL8 environment would have a lot of trouble figuring out
>how to start a new document, how to print it, that it can be stored for
>later retrieval, that pictures are no real problem anymore, etc. So, a
>penalty is in order.

Uphill is a lot harder than downhill, but I’d say if it's
named as the same skill then surely it's more related than
not?

>A TL8 secretary in a TL7 environment would have as much trouble. She
>knows more about computers and has in this regard superior knowledge.
>But she knows virtually nothing about the working techniques without a
>computer. She could type well, but she would be much slower and after a
>short while her fingers would start aching because she is not used to
>hard typewriters. She would have considerable trouble correcting
>spelling mistakes und introducing pictures into the documents. Changing
>the ink ( in dont know the english name of that thing in a typewriter
>that stores the ink) would likely be difficult. So, a penalty is in order.

Well, I’d suggest that this is ideal time for a few Int
rolls. I agree it would take longer than having someone
familiar with the tools, but this isn't likely to be a major
task in a game (if it ever would turn up in one!) so they
could take the time, and a penalty due to a few failed Int
rolls might make more sense, i certainly think it fairer
than a flat handicap.

There seems to be a 'this is totally alien device' view here
that is unfair, imo, it is not created for another species
in another language, after all.

>As a conclusion, the characters are not penalized for superior
>knowledge, but for lack of knowledge about working precedures of a lower TL.
>Tobias

If it were a utterly new thing (to the character) then
perhaps I could agree. But this is an ancestor device
(typewriter) and you should be able to fathom it out okay.
I just don't think it qualifies as Mensa.

mik