TL Tedium

Bent C Dalager wrote:
> On 2008-12-29, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Bent C Dalager wrote:
>>
>> Cleaning a TL5 gun is no different than cleaning a TL8 gun.
>
> TL8 automatics have considerably more fiddly mechanisms to clean than
> a TL5 revolver does. When I was in the army we were specifically
> instructed not to try to clean certain parts of the firing mechanism
> of our assault rifles because we would be too likely to lose important
> parts or just plain old not be able to put it back together again.
> There were specialists to clean that part of the gun.
>

Wouldn't that be considered part of the Armoury skill?


>> I think a
>> real problem is that technology does not move forward in huge leaps most
>> of the time. In the case of firearms there were the original touch hole
>> design using a hot wire followed by matchlocks, flintlocks, and finally
>> percussion based designs. A lot of those changes occurred in in TL4 and
>> TL5. Since then there has been no real changes in how they work.
>
> You really don't see much difference between a revolver and an
> automatic/semi-automatic?
>
As far as normal use, no. Having fired everything from Super Blackhawks
to .22 automatic pistols to black powder duck foots I found no real
difference in normal use. As I have also done reloading I found the
only difference between the black powder and cartridge weapons was when
the powder and primer were put together.

>>> I say what I said previously: the TL rules are very general and it is
>>> likely trivial to find sample points at which they do not accurately
>>> reflect reality. They may be too harsh on revolvers and too light on
>>> heavily gizmo'd laser pistols. The description of the Guns skill tries
>>> to address this by strongly emphasizing the need for unfamiliarity
>>> modifiers when picking up an unfamiliar weapon that matches your
>>> skill.
>>>
>> This could just as easily be done with the pistols and rifle skills.
>
> Pistol and rifle skills /are/ the Guns skill. What are you trying to
> say?
>
According to Lite (I am only using these rules at the moment as they are
on my computer) Guns includes Light Armor Weapons, Pistols, Rifles,
Shotguns, and Submachine Guns as separate skills. This category is part
of the Missile Weapon category which also includes machine guns, beam
weapons, and bows.

>> The basic usage does not change between using an M16 or a Winchester
>> lever action. There are differences that will take a couple of minutes
>> to work through but not enough that a user would suffer a -2 penalty for
>> the rest of their life to use one after learning the other.
>
> If he uses one for the rest of his life he will effectively be
> building up skill with it rather than defaulting it for eternity.
>
In game terms, no. Unless he spends the points to learn the skill or is
awarded it by the GM his skill will stay at -2. This is what I find
wrong with the rules. I have no problem saying that if a Sergeant York
picked up a M16 that he was at a slight penalty for a couple of hours to
get used to it, but saying that he would keep the penalty is ridiculous.

> The primary difference between an unfamiliarity modifier and the TL
> penalty in this case is that the former goes away much faster than the
> latter.
>
> Cheers,
> Bent D

On 2008-12-31, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Bent C Dalager wrote:
>> On 2008-12-29, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>> Bent C Dalager wrote:
>>>
>>> Cleaning a TL5 gun is no different than cleaning a TL8 gun.
>>
>> TL8 automatics have considerably more fiddly mechanisms to clean than
>> a TL5 revolver does. When I was in the army we were specifically
>> instructed not to try to clean certain parts of the firing mechanism
>> of our assault rifles because we would be too likely to lose important
>> parts or just plain old not be able to put it back together again.
>> There were specialists to clean that part of the gun.
>>
>
> Wouldn't that be considered part of the Armoury skill?

Perhaps, or perhaps it's just at such a high penalty to Guns skill (or
the consequences of failure so severe) that they didn't want the
grunts to try it. The few adventurous souls who did try were generally
successful but it took a lot of fiddling. As I remember there were one
or two spring-loaded mechanisms in there that would shoot rather tiny
parts clear across the room if you weren't careful with them.

>> You really don't see much difference between a revolver and an
>> automatic/semi-automatic?
>>
> As far as normal use, no.

I am also considering maintenance, however. I expect a modern gun
being maintained by a TL5 shooter to gradually become less effective
due to inferior maintenance.

>> Pistol and rifle skills /are/ the Guns skill. What are you trying to
>> say?
>>
> According to Lite (I am only using these rules at the moment as they are
> on my computer) Guns includes Light Armor Weapons, Pistols, Rifles,
> Shotguns, and Submachine Guns as separate skills. This category is part
> of the Missile Weapon category which also includes machine guns, beam
> weapons, and bows.

Again, I am not familiar with Lite. GURPS Basic lists Guns as a TL
skill with mandatory specializations. I am not sure what a category is
in this context.

>> If he uses one for the rest of his life he will effectively be
>> building up skill with it rather than defaulting it for eternity.
>>
> In game terms, no. Unless he spends the points to learn the skill or is
> awarded it by the GM his skill will stay at -2.

200 hours of training will give him a character point for free to
spend on the skill, so continual use will make the problem go away on
its own. It will just stick around rather longer than an unfamiliarity
penalty would.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.TakeThisOut@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

Bent C Dalager wrote:
> On 2008-12-31, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Bent C Dalager wrote:
>>> On 2008-12-29, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>> Bent C Dalager wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Cleaning a TL5 gun is no different than cleaning a TL8 gun.
>>> TL8 automatics have considerably more fiddly mechanisms to clean than
>>> a TL5 revolver does. When I was in the army we were specifically
>>> instructed not to try to clean certain parts of the firing mechanism
>>> of our assault rifles because we would be too likely to lose important
>>> parts or just plain old not be able to put it back together again.
>>> There were specialists to clean that part of the gun.
>>>
>> Wouldn't that be considered part of the Armoury skill?
>
> Perhaps, or perhaps it's just at such a high penalty to Guns skill (or
> the consequences of failure so severe) that they didn't want the
> grunts to try it. The few adventurous souls who did try were generally
> successful but it took a lot of fiddling. As I remember there were one
> or two spring-loaded mechanisms in there that would shoot rather tiny
> parts clear across the room if you weren't careful with them.
>
>>> You really don't see much difference between a revolver and an
>>> automatic/semi-automatic?
>>>
>> As far as normal use, no.
>
> I am also considering maintenance, however. I expect a modern gun
> being maintained by a TL5 shooter to gradually become less effective
> due to inferior maintenance.
>
>>> Pistol and rifle skills /are/ the Guns skill. What are you trying to
>>> say?
>>>
>> According to Lite (I am only using these rules at the moment as they are
>> on my computer) Guns includes Light Armor Weapons, Pistols, Rifles,
>> Shotguns, and Submachine Guns as separate skills. This category is part
>> of the Missile Weapon category which also includes machine guns, beam
>> weapons, and bows.
>
> Again, I am not familiar with Lite. GURPS Basic lists Guns as a TL
> skill with mandatory specializations. I am not sure what a category is
> in this context.
>
>>> If he uses one for the rest of his life he will effectively be
>>> building up skill with it rather than defaulting it for eternity.
>>>
>> In game terms, no. Unless he spends the points to learn the skill or is
>> awarded it by the GM his skill will stay at -2.
>
> 200 hours of training will give him a character point for free to
> spend on the skill, so continual use will make the problem go away on
> its own. It will just stick around rather longer than an unfamiliarity
> penalty would.
>
> Cheers,
> Bent D

I think a better solution for this whole problem would be to have
weapons like pistols listed with a TL range that they were in common
use. This way anyone learning pistol TL5 would be able to use pistols
first implemented in that TL regardless of when it was made. He would
not be able to use something like a TL4 matchlock if it was not in
common use in TL5. Nor would he be able to use a pistol designed in TL8
without learning the skill. This would allow a person learning pistol
today to still be able to use a black powder cartridge pistol with only
the normal unfamiliarity penalties.

Michael W. Ryder wrote:
>
> I think a better solution for this whole problem would be to have
> weapons like pistols listed with a TL range that they were in common
> use. This way anyone learning pistol TL5 would be able to use pistols
> first implemented in that TL regardless of when it was made. He would
> not be able to use something like a TL4 matchlock if it was not in
> common use in TL5. Nor would he be able to use a pistol designed in TL8
> without learning the skill. This would allow a person learning pistol
> today to still be able to use a black powder cartridge pistol with only
> the normal unfamiliarity penalties.

According to 4e Basic B511-512:
TL3= (600AD) Medieval- Steel weapons, early firearms
TL4= (1450+) Age of Sail- muskets and pikes, horse artillery, naval
broadsides

TL5= (1730+) Industrial Rev , Early repeating small arms (this would
include black powder percussion revolvers, black powder cartridge
revolvers, as well as the center fire cartridges), rifled cannon

TL6= (1880+) Electric Calculators, Telephone, Radio, Smokeless powder
(developed in 1890, US version pat. by Hudson Maxim)Automatic handguns
(developed 1892 - 1893 by Lauman and Borchadt) and tanks

TL7= (1940+) nuclear weapons, guided munitions, Ballistic body armor

TL8= (1980+) Personal Computers, blinding lasers, Smart guns[currently
vaporware]



For Hand guns and long guns I would advocate:
TL3= 1230 - 1540: touch hole, matchlock, & wheel lock guns

Tl4= 1540 - 1795: Appearance of Rifling and development of the
flintlock with covered flash pan and mechanical striker as one piece.

TL5= 1795 - 1859: Mass production of interchangeable parts, Revolvers,
Percussion, early [pin & rimfire] cartridges

Tl6= 1859 - 1892: Center fire cartridges, smokeless powder, Double
action revolver, Telescopic sights

TL7= 1892 - to date: Semiautomatics, Automatics, clips, Tasers,
[Late TL7= addition of laser bore sighting, laser sights, optical fiber
sights, IR night scopes]

TL8= Electronic biometric safety (only usable by voice print/finger
print/retinal scan/DNA of person(s) who have been keyed to weapon)
non-metalic weapons and ammo, integrally cast propellant and bullet
without a shell case (The above I know are in the research stage)
This creates new skills: Biology(biometrics) and
Electronics/Computor(biometric detectors)along with
Armory(electro-mechanical weapons)

TL9= [your imagination is as good as mine]


OR, to make it simpler:
TL5 = weapons where one had to measure the powder, cast the bullet, pack
with a ram rod, and add either more powder, a primer, or a cap in order
to fire.

TL6 = weapons using cartridges that are non-automatics and have
non-removable magazines.

TL7 = all automatics and semiautomatics,

TL8= Any weapon with attached electronics, inc. lasers, optics, IR,
Heads-up display.

Regards-
Roger


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Roger Connor wrote:
> Michael W. Ryder wrote:
>>
>> I think a better solution for this whole problem would be to have
>> weapons like pistols listed with a TL range that they were in common
>> use. This way anyone learning pistol TL5 would be able to use pistols
>> first implemented in that TL regardless of when it was made. He would
>> not be able to use something like a TL4 matchlock if it was not in
>> common use in TL5. Nor would he be able to use a pistol designed in
>> TL8 without learning the skill. This would allow a person learning
>> pistol today to still be able to use a black powder cartridge pistol
>> with only the normal unfamiliarity penalties.
>
> According to 4e Basic B511-512:
> TL3= (600AD) Medieval- Steel weapons, early firearms
> TL4= (1450+) Age of Sail- muskets and pikes, horse artillery, naval
> broadsides
>
> TL5= (1730+) Industrial Rev , Early repeating small arms (this would
> include black powder percussion revolvers, black powder cartridge
> revolvers, as well as the center fire cartridges), rifled cannon
>
> TL6= (1880+) Electric Calculators, Telephone, Radio, Smokeless powder
> (developed in 1890, US version pat. by Hudson Maxim)Automatic handguns
> (developed 1892 - 1893 by Lauman and Borchadt) and tanks
>
> TL7= (1940+) nuclear weapons, guided munitions, Ballistic body armor
>
> TL8= (1980+) Personal Computers, blinding lasers, Smart guns[currently
> vaporware]
>
>
>
> For Hand guns and long guns I would advocate:
> TL3= 1230 - 1540: touch hole, matchlock, & wheel lock guns
>
> Tl4= 1540 - 1795: Appearance of Rifling and development of the
> flintlock with covered flash pan and mechanical striker as one piece.
>
> TL5= 1795 - 1859: Mass production of interchangeable parts, Revolvers,
> Percussion, early [pin & rimfire] cartridges
>
> Tl6= 1859 - 1892: Center fire cartridges, smokeless powder, Double
> action revolver, Telescopic sights
>
> TL7= 1892 - to date: Semiautomatics, Automatics, clips, Tasers,
> [Late TL7= addition of laser bore sighting, laser sights, optical fiber
> sights, IR night scopes]
>
> TL8= Electronic biometric safety (only usable by voice print/finger
> print/retinal scan/DNA of person(s) who have been keyed to weapon)
> non-metalic weapons and ammo, integrally cast propellant and bullet
> without a shell case (The above I know are in the research stage)

The German G11 (TL7) uses case-less ammo and I think one of the American
manufacturers was promoting a rifle with case-less ammo. The biggest
problem I have heard with case-less ammo is that the case was used to
get rid of a lot of the heat from the weapon and they now have to find a
new way to do this. There is also the Gyroc from the 1960's that is
basically a rocket fired from a pistol or rifle sized weapon. They were
less effective at close ranges but almost silent and recoil-less.
Supposedly the Gyroc could be fired from any tube, including phony
cigarettes. I wonder how TSA would handle these.

> This creates new skills: Biology(biometrics) and
> Electronics/Computor(biometric detectors)along with
> Armory(electro-mechanical weapons)
>
> TL9= [your imagination is as good as mine]
>
>
> OR, to make it simpler:
> TL5 = weapons where one had to measure the powder, cast the bullet, pack
> with a ram rod, and add either more powder, a primer, or a cap in order
> to fire.
>
> TL6 = weapons using cartridges that are non-automatics and have
> non-removable magazines.
>
> TL7 = all automatics and semiautomatics,
>
> TL8= Any weapon with attached electronics, inc. lasers, optics, IR,
> Heads-up display.
>
> Regards-
> Roger
>
>
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