TL Tedium

mike <mikespam DeleteThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:27:29 +1100, Ben Finney
> <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> >The technological skills are *different*, they do not include a
> >working knowledge of any obsolete technology — otherwise it
> >wouldn't need to be obsolete.
> >
> >And "obsolete technology" is pretty much what is represented in
> >GURPS by any TL lower than current TL.
>
> I cannot agree with you on that, it's way too broad.

That's orthogonal to the matter of whether I'm describing how GURPS
Tech Levels relate to each other.

> And the higher TL depends on the prior TL's .

Only in the sense that the prior TL is necessary for the society to
achieve the subsequent TL. Once the society achieves a particular TL
in a field, much of the prior TL is obsolete and need not be used.

> Where you say the tech skills are different, i would agree that they
> are, but would describe it as 'Expanded', the higher level works
> with the knowledge and tools that the lower ones provided- How can
> it be otherwise?

Most of the *practices* (and practices are what is represented by
GURPS skills) of the prior TLs is obsolete, and no longer taught.
Sure, those parts of the *principles* of the prior TLs that are not
obsolete might still form a theoretical basis for later TLs; but
technology principles are fare less important in GURPS than how that
technology actually affects individual practices.

> >> The tech available today should be able to make anything that was
> >> manufactured in past TLs, and a better version.
> >
> >Why? This seems to be a major sticking point for you. Technologies
> >simply become *obsolete*, far more often than they carry forward
> >and remain useful in later ages.
>
> If it cannot, it shouldn't be classed as an advancement in
> technology, and a TL that is higher is supposed to be an advanced
> tech form.

Where, then, are the TL8 flint knappers? The TL8 buggy-whip makers?
The TL8 abacus makers? The TL8 paddle-steamer factories?

Those devices *could* be made today, but *not at TL8*. Someone would
have to be practicing an obsolete technological skill, in the absence
of a widespread support base, which is *not* a TL8 skill. The
resulting device would *not* be a TL8 device.

> Even if the item/method/process is obsolete it should still be
> possible to duplicate in a higher TL.

No. You seem to be thinking that, in a TL8 society, everything anyone
does in that society must be TL8. It's not so. People practicing flint
knapping are *not* practicing TL8 flint knapping; they're practicing
TL0 flint knapping, whatever their societal base.

> >Obsolete technologies are noted as historical interest, but are
> >certainly not taught as standard to the average person learning a
> >technological skill. They are *separate skills* dealing with very
> >different concepts, and more importantly different *practices*.
>
> There are a lot of obsolete products, granted, but when does
> it become an obsolete technology?

When the society is no longer classified as operating in that field at
that TL. That's different for each field, of course, but it's all
abstracted by the discrete TLs in GURPS.

> They die out only if a modified version proves more successful,
> useful or wider in scope.

You're still focusing only on the object. It's the *practice* that
becomes obsolete much more often than the object. Painkiller drugs are
*not* a "modified version" of bloodletting; the latter is simply
obsoleted by the entirely different technology in the same field.

> >No, absolutely not. The whole point of a different TL is that
> >*things are done differently*: design concepts, materials,
> >manufacturing processes, and most importantly the practices and
> >procedures that go along with all those.
>
> The end product would still be a revolver? The TL5 character would
> identify with it, be able to use/comprehend it?

Possibly identify with it, but would not have enough similarity to
apply the majority of their TL5 skill. By comprehending its purpose,
they would be able to operate it at default from DX, but could not use
their "Guns/TL5 (Revolver)" skill; the device is too different.

Once again, the "Guns/TL5 (Revolver)" skill is much more than
"point and shoot"; it's all aspects of doing things that apply to
revolvers as taught at TL5. The vast majority of that skill simply
doesn't apply to a TL9 revolver; the differences in the technology are
too much. That's what TL differences *mean*: not just "better stuff",
but a whole set of significant differences in design, manufacture,
modification, maintenance, and operation of the technology.

> >For the society, the lure of new technology is that, once
> >everything is in place to allow a field to advance to a new TL,
> >that field becomes significantly more productive; but that's
> >precisely because *everything is being done differently* to the way
> >it used to be. Hence all the skills are different for that
> >technology.
>
> That's usually a slow and planned change people work towards, or an
> abrupt snap as the older method is superseded.
> But i don't see this as a total paradigm change.
> If such a thing was possible it should be permissible to
> jump from TL2 to say L5, because it's just a different way
> to work.

You appear to have missed the leading sentence there, where I said
"once everything is in place to allow a field to advance to a new TL".

That's what prevents a field from skipping a TL; everything has to be
in place (that is, the existing technology must be at "late TL X")
before experimental technology from the next TL starts becoming
apparent (that is, "earlyTL X+1" technology starts appearing).

> >If you want "better quality", use the quality rules for equipment,
> >and don't change the TL. Technological progress is *not* about
> >"same stuff, only better". It's about "different ways of doing
> >everything so we can be more productive".
>
> I see TLs provide in Gurps new abilities at higher levels, i
> call that better quality.

That's a poor term to use, since as I pointed out GURPS already has
that term, and it applies to differences in *equipment*, not
technology; and those differences apply *within* a TL. You can call it
that to yourself if you choose, but it's only going to confuse this
discussion, which is about GURPS TL.

> In medicine i would quite like it if a whole new replacement body
> could be made to replace my characters rather 'battered' one. (But I
> would be surprised if i couldn't get an aspirin.)

You probably *won't* get an aspirin at that point (TL12); and the
processes for manufacturing such obsolete technology will perhaps be
forgotten to all but a few historians. Having advanced so far (six
tech levels!), medical technology will have *entirely different*
practices and the doctors will be confused or amused by suggestions of
obtaining an aspirin. They'll check your biorepair nanobots, or your
analgesic gland, or whatever you have as a member of a society with
TL12 medicine.

> In travel I'd like it if my character could instantly teleport from
> any local to another. (But would still expect roads and spacecraft
> to exist.)

Yet the technology produced by whatever TL that is will *not* be
operable without some learning by we TL8-transport-trained
anachronisms.

> Really a deepening of abilities/new 'powers', that's what i see a
> Gurps TL representing.

With that view, it's no wonder you have trouble with the TL skill
rules. I hope you can fix that view to align with what is actually
represented by GURPS TL, for the sake of enjoying the game as written.


We seem to have reached the point where not much new is being
contributed. You've been shown many ways why the GURPS TLs and the
GURPS skill rules interact the way they do; the differences in TL is
what explains the TL penalties for skills. You don't have to like it,
and if you want technology represented a different way you're free to
do it your way; but I'm no longer interested in repeating that the
GURPS TL rules do what they say they do.

--
\ "I must say that I find television very educational. The minute |
`\ somebody turns it on, I go to the library and read a book." |
_o__) —Groucho Marx |
Ben Finney

"Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> writes:

> But what is the real difference between a 1860 Colt revolver and one
> made in 2008? The only difference was in the powder and priming.
> None in the normal use. I can't see giving a penalty for using a
> weapon that hasn't really changed. Is there any difference between a
> Colt made in 1860 and a replica made today?

A replica of a TL5 gun made today is not used with TL8 skill. It's a
TL5 gun, made with Armory/TL8, so it's probably a fine-quality one.
The skill to use it is not Guns/TL8, it's Guns/TL5.

--
\ "You've got to think about big things while you're doing small |
`\ things, so that all the small things go in the right |
_o__) direction." —Alvin Toffler |
Ben Finney

Ben Finney wrote:
> "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>> But what is the real difference between a 1860 Colt revolver and one
>> made in 2008? The only difference was in the powder and priming.
>> None in the normal use. I can't see giving a penalty for using a
>> weapon that hasn't really changed. Is there any difference between a
>> Colt made in 1860 and a replica made today?
>
> A replica of a TL5 gun made today is not used with TL8 skill. It's a
> TL5 gun, made with Armory/TL8, so it's probably a fine-quality one.
> The skill to use it is not Guns/TL8, it's Guns/TL5.
>

Is a modern Super Blackhawk that different from a 1860's revolver?
There is a small difference in loading and the difference in materials
but the general usage and maintenance is identical. The only real
difference is the power and the ballistics. I don't think that is worth
2 or 3 points of penalties. Pistols really haven't changed much in over
100 years but the rules say they have. Until we get away from explosive
chemical energy with lead slugs there can probably be very little
differences between the old Colt Peacemaker or 1903 Automatic that can
be handled with an unfamiliarity penalty and not require learning a
whole new skill. A TL6 pistol like the .45 did not become obsolete or
harder to use during Vietnam or at the turn of the millennium.
Some skills, such as medicine have changed a lot in the last century and
I have no problems with requiring the penalty for different times.

On 2008-12-16, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Ben Finney wrote:
>>
>> A replica of a TL5 gun made today is not used with TL8 skill. It's a
>> TL5 gun, made with Armory/TL8, so it's probably a fine-quality one.
>> The skill to use it is not Guns/TL8, it's Guns/TL5.
>>
>
> Is a modern Super Blackhawk that different from a 1860's revolver?

I wouldn't know. But again, GURPS TL rules generalize and it will
probably be easy to find isolated situtations where they can be shown
to not be very accurate. Some TL8 products should probably have
smaller penalties (basic high-tech revolvers perhaps) while some
should probably have higher penalties (fully gizmo'd up high-tech
revolvers possibly). The -3 is a reasonable average that removes the
need for pages upon pages of penalty tables for different equipment at
different TL deltas.

To the extent that you have details for each weapon model it wouldn't
be unreasonable for one to note "this weapon is very much like a TL5
revolver and can be used without penalty with Guns/TL5 through
Guns/TL8" while another might note "this weapon requires a Computer
Use/TL8 roll before each shooting session". These, then, are
exceptions to the general rule that might serve to give individual
models some personality for those groups that find this interesting.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd RemoveThis @pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:32:30 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
<_mwryder.DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>I think there are two problems you are confronting. The first is that
>GURPS treats all items made between two dates as the same tech level.

Oh. I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out.
(please note, i borrow the Gurps book in brief bursts.)

>While this makes it simpler for the GM and players it is not necessarily
>reality. Like your example of revolvers. They were first successful in
>the mid 1800's but the design hasn't changed in the tech level changes
>since then. One way around this would be to replace the pistol-TL skill
>with pistol revolver, pistol semi-automatic, etc. skills.

Humm, i suppose it would work. Just not happy that it's a
skill. I guess I’m reluctant to part with hard won points
when i see it as a skill I’ve already brought.

>The other problem is thinking that a higher TL is just an improved
>version of the lower. In some fields this is true, but as most people
>can only learn so much a lot of the older knowledge is never learned. A
>modern doctor would have a hard time finding reliable drugs in the
>1600's.

This is a point many have made, and yes, in the main I’d
possibly/probably agree. But they might also possess vital
knowledge that would conflict with local diagnosis and
treatment -and be right-. that's where i think the benefit
of their TL being higher could be.

>A lot of herbal remedies may be available that duplicate the
>drugs he is familiar with but he doesn't know about them or how to use
>them. His knowledge of medicine is going to make it easier to find this
>information than someone without his training but he is not going to be
>as effective for a time. This is where the penalty comes into play. He
>isn't prevented from aiding people, he just won't always be as good as
>he was in old clinic until he has gone through a type of internship in
>the new surroundings.

I think this is a way to play the character that I’d never
consider trying. Not that it's wrong, it isn't at all, it's
just that i wouldn't think in that way.
I'd expect them to act at the TL they come from and not
attempt things in/with the environments TL -that's alien to
them, after all.
Presumably they do the best they can in a bad situation
(lack of equipment, medicines etc.) and would not be able to
rule out some possible diagnosis due to that lack.
Part of my problem also comes from my GMs Yes/No style i
have always played in. A failure in a Medical roll might
lead to the character having the wrong treatment - and kill
him off.

thanks,
mike

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:55:18 +1100, Ben Finney
<bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:

>mike <mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:27:29 +1100, Ben Finney
>> <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> >The technological skills are *different*, they do not include a
>> >working knowledge of any obsolete technology — otherwise it
>> >wouldn't need to be obsolete.
>> >
>> >And "obsolete technology" is pretty much what is represented in
>> >GURPS by any TL lower than current TL.
>>
>> I cannot agree with you on that, it's way too broad.
>
>That's orthogonal to the matter of whether I'm describing how GURPS
>Tech Levels relate to each other.

Sorry.

>
>> And the higher TL depends on the prior TL's .
>
>Only in the sense that the prior TL is necessary for the society to
>achieve the subsequent TL. Once the society achieves a particular TL
>in a field, much of the prior TL is obsolete and need not be used.

This 'discard' of the previous TL, it looks like you see it
as the baby has learnt to walk and will forget how to crawl.
I see it more like the deep foundations of an important
building, every brick is required.

>> Where you say the tech skills are different, i would agree that they
>> are, but would describe it as 'Expanded', the higher level works
>> with the knowledge and tools that the lower ones provided- How can
>> it be otherwise?
>
>Most of the *practices* (and practices are what is represented by
>GURPS skills) of the prior TLs is obsolete, and no longer taught.
>Sure, those parts of the *principles* of the prior TLs that are not
>obsolete might still form a theoretical basis for later TLs; but
>technology principles are fare less important in GURPS than how that
>technology actually affects individual practices.

In a Gurps skill, I’d have thought the practices to be,
well, same or similar in most TLs.
Only thing is that the principles should not vary - unless
the lower TL got them wrong. The rules of nature are
supposed to be constant after all.

>> >> The tech available today should be able to make anything that was
>> >> manufactured in past TLs, and a better version.
>> >
>> >Why? This seems to be a major sticking point for you. Technologies
>> >simply become *obsolete*, far more often than they carry forward
>> >and remain useful in later ages.
>>
>> If it cannot, it shouldn't be classed as an advancement in
>> technology, and a TL that is higher is supposed to be an advanced
>> tech form.
>
>Where, then, are the TL8 flint knappers? The TL8 buggy-whip makers?
>The TL8 abacus makers? The TL8 paddle-steamer factories?

Just because we don't make them, doesn't mean we can't.
My point, i guess got lost
I don't see that a TL skill should be affected by the TL
that made the item unless it is a better or worse item.
So a TL9 Pistol and a TL5 Pistol may require different
upkeep (my instinct would be the L5 needs more care) but the
same skill to actually use them.

>Those devices *could* be made today, but *not at TL8*. Someone would
>have to be practicing an obsolete technological skill, in the absence
>of a widespread support base, which is *not* a TL8 skill. The
>resulting device would *not* be a TL8 device.

I was thinking of the higher TL making a lower TL device
(such as a gun) using its better knowledge (like ballistics
& explosives) and materials (for a stronger, lighter and
more durable gun) to end up with an item that simply cannot
be made at the lower TL, but should be recognised and could
be used at that lower level.
But Gurps seems to be saying it would need a subskill at the
higher TL.

>> Even if the item/method/process is obsolete it should still be
>> possible to duplicate in a higher TL.
>
>No. You seem to be thinking that, in a TL8 society, everything anyone
>does in that society must be TL8. It's not so. People practicing flint
>knapping are *not* practicing TL8 flint knapping; they're practicing
>TL0 flint knapping, whatever their societal base.

I do think that, yes. But it was not the direction i was
aiming at
<<#>>
>> There are a lot of obsolete products, granted, but when does
>> it become an obsolete technology?
>
>When the society is no longer classified as operating in that field at
>that TL. That's different for each field, of course, but it's all
>abstracted by the discrete TLs in GURPS.

You seem to have : New TL <> Old TL
Which doesn't make sense to me.
I have : New TL = Old TL +1

>> They die out only if a modified version proves more successful,
>> useful or wider in scope.
>
>You're still focusing only on the object. It's the *practice* that
>becomes obsolete much more often than the object. Painkiller drugs are
>*not* a "modified version" of bloodletting; the latter is simply
>obsoleted by the entirely different technology in the same field.

I wasn't aware that bloodletting was an anaesthetic, must
remember that next time my little brothers a pain.
You're right that i focus on the object, but almost all game
skills do.

<<#>>
>> The end product would still be a revolver? The TL5 character would
>> identify with it, be able to use/comprehend it?
>
>Possibly identify with it, but would not have enough similarity to
>apply the majority of their TL5 skill. By comprehending its purpose,
>they would be able to operate it at default from DX, but could not use
>their "Guns/TL5 (Revolver)" skill; the device is too different.
>
>Once again, the "Guns/TL5 (Revolver)" skill is much more than
>"point and shoot"; it's all aspects of doing things that apply to
>revolvers as taught at TL5. The vast majority of that skill simply
>doesn't apply to a TL9 revolver; the differences in the technology are
>too much. That's what TL differences *mean*: not just "better stuff",
>but a whole set of significant differences in design, manufacture,
>modification, maintenance, and operation of the technology.

It looks like i expect more from my characters skills than i
should.

>> >For the society, the lure of new technology is that, once
>> >everything is in place to allow a field to advance to a new TL,
>> >that field becomes significantly more productive; but that's
>> >precisely because *everything is being done differently* to the way
>> >it used to be. Hence all the skills are different for that
>> >technology.
>>
>> That's usually a slow and planned change people work towards, or an
>> abrupt snap as the older method is superseded.
>> But i don't see this as a total paradigm change.
>> If such a thing was possible it should be permissible to
>> jump from TL2 to say L5, because it's just a different way
>> to work.
>
>You appear to have missed the leading sentence there, where I said
>"once everything is in place to allow a field to advance to a new TL".

I didn't miss it. I just can't see an entire discipline
change in that drastic a manner.

>>
>> I see TLs provide in Gurps new abilities at higher levels, i
>> call that better quality.
>
>That's a poor term to use, since as I pointed out GURPS already has
>that term, and it applies to differences in *equipment*, not
>technology; and those differences apply *within* a TL. You can call it
>that to yourself if you choose, but it's only going to confuse this
>discussion, which is about GURPS TL.

Yes, however since I’d already used it in other parts of the
thread i thought it better to avoid it entirely and define
the 'quality'.
That said, in most cases it is true that I’d expect some
advantage from higher tech.

>> In medicine i would quite like it if a whole new replacement body
>> could be made to replace my characters rather 'battered' one. (But I
>> would be surprised if i couldn't get an aspirin.)
>
>You probably *won't* get an aspirin at that point (TL12); and the
>processes for manufacturing such obsolete technology will perhaps be
>forgotten to all but a few historians. Having advanced so far (six
>tech levels!), medical technology will have *entirely different*
>practices and the doctors will be confused or amused by suggestions of
>obtaining an aspirin. They'll check your biorepair nanobots, or your
>analgesic gland, or whatever you have as a member of a society with
>TL12 medicine.

I might not get my aspirin, but i would get something
equivalent to it

>> In travel I’d like it if my character could instantly teleport from
>> any local to another. (But would still expect roads and spacecraft
>> to exist.)
>
>Yet the technology produced by whatever TL that is will *not* be
>operable without some learning by we TL8-transport-trained
>anachronisms.
>
>> Really a deepening of abilities/new 'powers', that's what i see a
>> Gurps TL representing.
>
>With that view, it's no wonder you have trouble with the TL skill
>rules. I hope you can fix that view to align with what is actually
>represented by GURPS TL, for the sake of enjoying the game as written.
Thanks, i hope so too.
will keep hammering at it.
It's a character flaw, sorry to say.

>
>We seem to have reached the point where not much new is being
>contributed. You've been shown many ways why the GURPS TLs and the
>GURPS skill rules interact the way they do; the differences in TL is
>what explains the TL penalties for skills. You don't have to like it,
>and if you want technology represented a different way you're free to
>do it your way; but I'm no longer interested in repeating that the
>GURPS TL rules do what they say they do.

Well, thanks for all your help.
I worded this without questions since you wish to let this
drop, but I’d like you to know i do appreciate your help !

I'm thinking that for using devices, the simple functions i
will permit without penalty, and complex ones will require
an IQ/unfamiliarity penalty.
If the character has a knowledge 'hole' then they flatly
don't know, hence cannot do. So no TL2 playing at Beam
weapons.

Am considering an advantage with TLs as like languages.
Buy it outright, you either have the experience (of the TL)
or not, I will investigate that in more detail and see
how/if it works out.

thanks again

Mik

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:53:44 +0000, mike
<mikespam.RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:55:18 +1100, Ben Finney
><bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>
>>mike <mikespam.RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:27:29 +1100, Ben Finney
>>> <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>> >The technological skills are *different*, they do not include a
>>> >working knowledge of any obsolete technology — otherwise it
>>> >wouldn't need to be obsolete.
>>> >
>>> >And "obsolete technology" is pretty much what is represented in
>>> >GURPS by any TL lower than current TL.
>>>
>>> I cannot agree with you on that, it's way too broad.
>>
>>That's orthogonal to the matter of whether I'm describing how GURPS
>>Tech Levels relate to each other.
>
>Sorry.
>
>>
>>> And the higher TL depends on the prior TL's .
>>
>>Only in the sense that the prior TL is necessary for the society to
>>achieve the subsequent TL. Once the society achieves a particular TL
>>in a field, much of the prior TL is obsolete and need not be used.
>
>This 'discard' of the previous TL, it looks like you see it
>as the baby has learnt to walk and will forget how to crawl.
>I see it more like the deep foundations of an important
>building, every brick is required.

Yeah, but it isn't true. Expertise in VCR repair is not a necessary
prerequisite for equal expertise in DVD player repair. Blacksmiths do
not know how to flintknap at all well. A gunsmith could make a sword,
but he couldn't do it as well as he makes guns, particularly not if he
was limited to TL 3 tools and materials. A modern driver is going to
find that Model Ts pose unexpected challenges.

>Just because we don't make them, doesn't mean we can't.
>My point, i guess got lost
>I don't see that a TL skill should be affected by the TL
>that made the item unless it is a better or worse item.
>So a TL9 Pistol and a TL5 Pistol may require different
>upkeep (my instinct would be the L5 needs more care) but the
>same skill to actually use them.

Yes it would. The truth is, hand guns are the odd man out in
technology skills because they aren't changing in use the way other
technologies are. Making the use of hand guns an exception to the
rule is perfectly justified. But that doesn't mean the rule as a
whole isn't based on something real.

mike wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:32:30 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
> <_mwryder RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> I think there are two problems you are confronting. The first is that
>> GURPS treats all items made between two dates as the same tech level.
>
> Oh. I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out.
> (please note, i borrow the Gurps book in brief bursts.)
>
>> While this makes it simpler for the GM and players it is not necessarily
>> reality. Like your example of revolvers. They were first successful in
>> the mid 1800's but the design hasn't changed in the tech level changes
>> since then. One way around this would be to replace the pistol-TL skill
>> with pistol revolver, pistol semi-automatic, etc. skills.
>
> Humm, i suppose it would work. Just not happy that it's a
> skill. I guess I’m reluctant to part with hard won points
> when i see it as a skill I’ve already brought.
>

Unfortunately I missed the fact that Armoury is a TL skill but Pistol is
not. I can see a problem with someone repairing a pistol from a
different TL if parts and manuals are not available, but the same can be
said about repairing a current Russian pistol if you can't find the
parts or a manual in English. I am not sure if I would allow a TL 8
gunfighter to operate a TL 4 (?) matchlock pistol without any penalty
though, just like the TL 4 soldier would probably have a hard time using
a TL 8 pistol. It should only take a couple of hours of practice to get
rid of the penalty though.

>> The other problem is thinking that a higher TL is just an improved
>> version of the lower. In some fields this is true, but as most people
>> can only learn so much a lot of the older knowledge is never learned. A
>> modern doctor would have a hard time finding reliable drugs in the
>> 1600's.
>
> This is a point many have made, and yes, in the main I’d
> possibly/probably agree. But they might also possess vital
> knowledge that would conflict with local diagnosis and
> treatment -and be right-. that's where i think the benefit
> of their TL being higher could be.
>
Or they could diagnose something like AIDS for a person with some
disease that has been eliminated long before the doctor's text books
were written. They are going to run into diseases and injuries that
were not known when they were training. And they could try to save
someone with a treatment that will not work in that time. For example a
surgeon could try to save a person's leg instead of amputating and have
the patient die of shock or gangrene because the drugs and supplies the
doctor unconsciously counted on are not there.


>> A lot of herbal remedies may be available that duplicate the
>> drugs he is familiar with but he doesn't know about them or how to use
>> them. His knowledge of medicine is going to make it easier to find this
>> information than someone without his training but he is not going to be
>> as effective for a time. This is where the penalty comes into play. He
>> isn't prevented from aiding people, he just won't always be as good as
>> he was in old clinic until he has gone through a type of internship in
>> the new surroundings.
>
> I think this is a way to play the character that I’d never
> consider trying. Not that it's wrong, it isn't at all, it's
> just that i wouldn't think in that way.
> I'd expect them to act at the TL they come from and not
> attempt things in/with the environments TL -that's alien to
> them, after all.
> Presumably they do the best they can in a bad situation
> (lack of equipment, medicines etc.) and would not be able to
> rule out some possible diagnosis due to that lack.
> Part of my problem also comes from my GMs Yes/No style i
> have always played in. A failure in a Medical roll might
> lead to the character having the wrong treatment - and kill
> him off.
>
> thanks,
> mike

>>>>> "m" == mike <mikespam.DeleteThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

>> Only in the sense that the prior TL is necessary for the society
>> to achieve the subsequent TL. Once the society achieves a
>> particular TL in a field, much of the prior TL is obsolete and
>> need not be used.

m> This 'discard' of the previous TL, it looks like you see it as
m> the baby has learnt to walk and will forget how to crawl. I see
m> it more like the deep foundations of an important building, every
m> brick is required.

But the techniques are different.

Consider medicine. Someone trained as a paramedic in 1995 who finds
himself thrown through a dimensional gate into 1942 -- TL7 to TL6 --
will find that a lot of his training depends on equipment and drugs that
simply aren't there. The information isn't *lost*, but it's not
something he uses every day, and so it's not at the tip of his fingers.
So he'd have to study and review for a while to get up to speed, and
until he did, he'd be thinking, okay, convulsing patient, 20 ccs of this
drug -- whoops, that won't be available for another 30 years, I guess we
better just restrain him and hope for the best. That's *easily* worth a
-1 penalty, until the paramedic is familiar with the technology
available to him -- represented by putting a point into First Aid/TL6.

Consider computer science. Someone who has a successful career as a
computer programmer in 2008 -- TL8 -- would struggle mightily if dropped
into 1970 -- TL7. Sure, he probably learned about assembly language at
one point, probably as a historical curiosity. The information's not
*lost*, but he doesn't use it every day because it's been superseded.
The tools he has available will be completely unfamiliar, and he'll have
a hard time adapting -- again, easily worth the -1 penalty -- until he
spends some time getting familiar with the technology available to
him -- again, represented by putting a point into Computer
Programming/TL7.

Sure, you can come up with Guns as an example of how the use of the
technology hasn't really changed, and firing a TL6 pistol and a TL8
pistol will not be different enough to justify the -1 penalty. On the
other hand, 1995 computers and 1975 computers are sufficiently different
that a -1 penalty is laughable. On the average, it works.

m> In a Gurps skill, I'd have thought the practices to be, well,
m> same or similar in most TLs. Only thing is that the principles
m> should not vary - unless the lower TL got them wrong. The rules
m> of nature are supposed to be constant after all.

The practical application of the germ theory of disease -- the idea that
disease was spread by microorganisms and that things like washing their
hands between patients -- was first proposed in 1847, and was violently
resisted by the medical establishment of the time. It was not until
1875 -- TL5 -- that the link between bacteria and disease was
conclusively demonstrated.

So it's not until TL5 that keeping your hands clean is part of medical
practice.

The sulfa drugs, the precursors to penicillin and other antibiotics,
were discovered in 1932, and announced in 1935. This was an incredible
breakthrough.

So it's not until TL6 that medication is available to treat infection.

The first patient treated with penicillin as an antibiotic was in 1942.
This is very late TL6, almost into TL7.

The physical and chemical principles are the same, but our understanding
of them changes as we discover things and learn more. And when our
understanding of the principles changes, our practices change.

>>> That's usually a slow and planned change people work towards, or
>>> an abrupt snap as the older method is superseded. But i don't
>>> see this as a total paradigm change. If such a thing was
>>> possible it should be permissible to jump from TL2 to say L5,
>>> because it's just a different way to work.
>>
>> You appear to have missed the leading sentence there, where I
>> said "once everything is in place to allow a field to advance to
>> a new TL".

m> I didn't miss it. I just can't see an entire discipline change in
m> that drastic a manner.

The discipline doesn't change that drastically all at once. That's an
abstraction that helps for game mechanics. The discipline changes bit
by bit, and in 20 years it has changed drastically, but because the
change was so gradual it wasn't noticeable.

>> You probably *won't* get an aspirin at that point (TL12); and the
>> processes for manufacturing such obsolete technology will perhaps
>> be forgotten to all but a few historians. Having advanced so far
>> (six tech levels!), medical technology will have *entirely
>> different* practices and the doctors will be confused or amused
>> by suggestions of obtaining an aspirin. They'll check your
>> biorepair nanobots, or your analgesic gland, or whatever you have
>> as a member of a society with TL12 medicine.

m> I might not get my aspirin, but i would get something equivalent
m> to it

Sure. Your TL12 doctor will say, "Ah, pain from tension -- here, let me
use my neural scanner to trigger some endorphin release." End result,
pain gone away.

Your TL8 doctor transported to TL12 will look in his dispensary for
aspirin, and not find any. He'll try to look for other analgesics, and
probably not find them either. He'll fiddle with the neural scanner,
and maybe figure out what to do to relieve the pain.

So if you have a TL12 skill and TL12 gear and setting, you're all set.
If you have a TL8 skill but TL12 gear and setting, you don't find the
familiar things you're used to, and you find a lot of things you don't
know the purpose of. It takes you time to overcome that familiarity.

The penalty is because the TL8 medic doesn't know what the TL12
equivalent to an aspirin is.

Charlton


--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur.DeleteThis@chromatico.net

On 2008-12-18, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately I missed the fact that Armoury is a TL skill but Pistol is
> not.

Guns (Pistol) is a TL skill. Effectively you get -1 for each TL
difference from your own.

> I can see a problem with someone repairing a pistol from a
> different TL if parts and manuals are not available, but the same can be
> said about repairing a current Russian pistol if you can't find the
> parts or a manual in English. I am not sure if I would allow a TL 8
> gunfighter to operate a TL 4 (?) matchlock pistol without any penalty
> though, just like the TL 4 soldier would probably have a hard time using
> a TL 8 pistol. It should only take a couple of hours of practice to get
> rid of the penalty though.

The TL rules give a permanent -4 penalty for both situations, this can
only be eliminated by putting character points into it.

If you also slap on an unfamiliarity modifier (which is usually in
order) that will typically go away over time without any character
point expenditure.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd RemoveThis @pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

On 2008-12-18, mike <mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I was thinking of the higher TL making a lower TL device
> (such as a gun) using its better knowledge (like ballistics
> & explosives) and materials (for a stronger, lighter and
> more durable gun) to end up with an item that simply cannot
> be made at the lower TL, but should be recognised and could
> be used at that lower level.

It is certainly possible for a TL8 gunsmith to make a superior TL8
revolver that can be used without penalty by TL5 shooters. This would
just be a variation of item quality in that he builds in up to +3 to
offset TL penalties.

But he does need to consciously do this and put in the extra effort
necessary to customize the gun to fit TL5 shooters as well as TL8
ones. This isn't necessarily easy.

> You seem to have : New TL <> Old TL
> Which doesn't make sense to me.
> I have : New TL = Old TL +1

If this were the case then reciprocating piston steam engines would
still be a mainstay of our industry, muzzle-loaded smoothbore rifles
would still be at the basis of our infantry and leeches would still be
at the very foundation of modern medicine. We would have super-
efficient miniaturized steam engines, fantastically powerful and
accurate smoothbores and leeches that could cure cancer - all of which
might be nice I suppose.

This is not the case however. Instead we use entirely different
technologies and find the above ones to be largely alien.
Reciprocating piston steam engines are mostly found in museums,
smoothbores in private collections and leeches only see sporadic use
in modern medicine.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.TakeThisOut@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

Bent C Dalager wrote:
> On 2008-12-18, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Unfortunately I missed the fact that Armoury is a TL skill but Pistol is
>> not.
>
> Guns (Pistol) is a TL skill. Effectively you get -1 for each TL
> difference from your own.
>

According to GURPS Lite page 15 Guns are DX/Easy with no mention of TL.
They are based off of the Missile Weapon skill on page 14 and again
there is NO mention of TL. Did the full version change this? Armoury
on page 14 is TL based and is the building, modifying, and repairing of
arms or armour.
I am using the Lite rules as I don't have the books with me where I am
posting from.


>> I can see a problem with someone repairing a pistol from a
>> different TL if parts and manuals are not available, but the same can be
>> said about repairing a current Russian pistol if you can't find the
>> parts or a manual in English. I am not sure if I would allow a TL 8
>> gunfighter to operate a TL 4 (?) matchlock pistol without any penalty
>> though, just like the TL 4 soldier would probably have a hard time using
>> a TL 8 pistol. It should only take a couple of hours of practice to get
>> rid of the penalty though.
>
> The TL rules give a permanent -4 penalty for both situations, this can
> only be eliminated by putting character points into it.
>

So I had to put skill points into using my 1864 Colt replica? It took a
couple of minutes to figure out how to load the TL5 pistol and a couple
of hours practice to get reasonably proficient with it. I can see the
modifier when the TL totally changes the skill, like in going from
vacuum tubes to integrated circuits, but as I mentioned elsewhere the TL
changes for everything on a specific date. I prefer something like Iron
Crown's having each group of skills having its own TL. You can then
have a society where medicine is TL7 and most mechanical items are TL 4
because of religious dogma.


> If you also slap on an unfamiliarity modifier (which is usually in
> order) that will typically go away over time without any character
> point expenditure.
>
> Cheers,
> Bent D

On 2008-12-18, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Bent C Dalager wrote:
>> On 2008-12-18, Michael W. Ryder <_mwryder.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>> Unfortunately I missed the fact that Armoury is a TL skill but Pistol is
>>> not.
>>
>> Guns (Pistol) is a TL skill. Effectively you get -1 for each TL
>> difference from your own.
>>
>
> According to GURPS Lite page 15 Guns are DX/Easy with no mention of TL.
> They are based off of the Missile Weapon skill on page 14 and again
> there is NO mention of TL. Did the full version change this?

The GURPS Basic Set lists the skill on B198 as "Guns/TL*" (* being a
dagger that signifies compulsory specialization) as a DX/Easy skill.

The description goes on to note, among other things, that:
"The weapons covered by each specialty vary by TL. For example, Guns
(Rifle) covers muzzleloaders at TL4, lever actions at TL5, and
self-loaders at TL6+. In particular, ammunition varies with TL, from
black powder and loose shot at TL4, to smokeless powder cartridges at
TL6, to power cells and metallic slivers for TL9+ electromagnetic
guns."

I am not familiar with GURPS Lite so I'm not sure if and in what way
those rules are simplified.

>> The TL rules give a permanent -4 penalty for both situations, this can
>> only be eliminated by putting character points into it.
>>
>
> So I had to put skill points into using my 1864 Colt replica? It took a
> couple of minutes to figure out how to load the TL5 pistol and a couple
> of hours practice to get reasonably proficient with it.

The TL rules represent a generalization and it's usually easy to find
specific cases in which generalizations break down. Perhaps this
happens to be a gun model that is exempt from TL penalties in the case
at hand.

The problems you note above are probably best reflected by
unfamiliarity modifiers in GURPS.

> I can see the
> modifier when the TL totally changes the skill, like in going from
> vacuum tubes to integrated circuits, but as I mentioned elsewhere the TL
> changes for everything on a specific date. I prefer something like Iron
> Crown's having each group of skills having its own TL. You can then
> have a society where medicine is TL7 and most mechanical items are TL 4
> because of religious dogma.

GURPS lets you have different TLs in different fields so this
shouldn't be much of a problem.

It also notes the particular problem of trying to model the time
around a TL transition in which you will have a mix of previous TL and
next TL practices. This appears to take a bit more work when building
the campaign setting.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.TakeThisOut@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs