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Next: Higher Purpose (need suggestions)
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External
Since: Feb 22, 2008
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:26 pm
Post subject: TL Tedium
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>gurps (more info?)
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I still haven’t got my mind around this TL
concept, and the firearms thread hasn’t helped
this at all.
Considering the reaction to the money thread as
being way too much housekeeping (even though it
was simply a little colour to the game),
I’d have thought the Tech level idea would have
had much greater flak than it does.
My two gripes (which might be due to my
misunderstanding its intent) is that:-
1) the technology does not need to be understood
to be used, and is typically designed to be used
by people that haven’t the foggiest notion on how
it works, and only care that it does.
And 2) Gurps doesn’t seem to make sense with lower
TL and higher being some form of penalty to use:
If it’s not your TL you will have a hard time with
it. Personally I see this as silly, (very silly)
as shouldn’t this be a use of the characters
Intelligence? To look at a low TL and says ‘easy
stuff’ and at a higher TL as ‘Oh, I think I get
the gist’?
Either way it should not prevent them from using
the higher TL without the understanding (point 1
again).
I have no problem with ‘Unngh’ the cave dweller
from a TL0 or 1 having access to Advanced
technology from another time or from an alien
(humanoid) race.
And having no problems using any of it, but when
it comes to understanding, this would be a matter
of TL education. With access to higher level
classes (say that a robot teacher would educate
any who ask) it becomes purely a question of how
smart is ‘Unngh’ ? Tech level should not change
that, ‘Unngh’ could prove incapable at
comprehension of all but the easiest lessons, yet
that should still have no effect on the use of the
‘Matter Trans-locator’ or ‘Fusion gun’ likewise
‘Unngh’ could be a genius in the wrong era, and be
able to (eventually) grasp the higher concepts
with ease, eventually expanding the fields.
And that too should have no change on the use of
the ‘Matter Trans-locator’ or ‘Fusion gun’.
As for attaching a TL to magic, I see that as a
bigger error of judgement, unless tech and magic
‘in that specific genre’ the same thing.
Whew. Sorry about that. I feel much better now.
mik |
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External
Since: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 385
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Nov 30, 10:26 am, mike <mikes....TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I still haven’t got my mind around this TL
> concept, and the firearms thread hasn’t helped
> this at all.
Why are you worrying about it? Even in campaigns with multiple TLs
I've rarely run into it. |
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External
Since: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 272
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:26:03 +0000, mike
<mikespam DeleteThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I still haven’t got my mind around this TL
>concept, and the firearms thread hasn’t helped
>this at all.
>Considering the reaction to the money thread as
>being way too much housekeeping (even though it
>was simply a little colour to the game),
>I’d have thought the Tech level idea would have
>had much greater flak than it does.
>My two gripes (which might be due to my
>misunderstanding its intent) is that:-
>1) the technology does not need to be understood
>to be used, and is typically designed to be used
>by people that haven’t the foggiest notion on how
>it works, and only care that it does.
Lower TL people learn DX based skills higher TL with no penality when
given the opportunity. This appears to be the detail you are missing. |
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External
Since: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 284
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:31 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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mike wrote:
> I still haven’t got my mind around this TL
> concept, and the firearms thread hasn’t helped
> this at all.
> Considering the reaction to the money thread as
> being way too much housekeeping (even though it
> was simply a little colour to the game),
> I’d have thought the Tech level idea would have
> had much greater flak than it does.
> My two gripes (which might be due to my
> misunderstanding its intent) is that:-
> 1) the technology does not need to be understood
> to be used, and is typically designed to be used
> by people that haven’t the foggiest notion on how
> it works, and only care that it does.
> And 2) Gurps doesn’t seem to make sense with lower
> TL and higher being some form of penalty to use:
> If it’s not your TL you will have a hard time with
> it. Personally I see this as silly, (very silly)
> as shouldn’t this be a use of the characters
> Intelligence? To look at a low TL and says ‘easy
> stuff’ and at a higher TL as ‘Oh, I think I get
> the gist’?
And how easy would it be for you to use a black powder revolver, or a
matchlock pistol? Without some "training" you are going to have
problems loading the weapons, especially if you don't want to jam the
barrel with an underpowered charge or blow up the gun with an overcharge
or chain fire in the case of a revolver.
Or for another example, have you ever used a slide rule? Do you think
you could figure one out without help? I had one that had a large
number of different functions and the main multiplication function was
different from most other slide rules. I never got too far with it as
calculators were just becoming affordable, i.e. under $800.
I don't agree with the time it takes to learn any "simpler" device but
they had to make a generic rule to prevent the lawyering that would take
place if they tried to say that firearms take x time per TL difference
and machining takes y time, etc.
> Either way it should not prevent them from using
> the higher TL without the understanding (point 1
> again).
>
I think this could be a problem if you took a TL 6 machinist and gave
him a TL7+ computer controlled milling machine. He may know what he
wants to do but programming the machine will be beyond his abilities.
> I have no problem with ‘Unngh’ the cave dweller
> from a TL0 or 1 having access to Advanced
> technology from another time or from an alien
> (humanoid) race.
> And having no problems using any of it, but when
> it comes to understanding, this would be a matter
> of TL education. With access to higher level
> classes (say that a robot teacher would educate
> any who ask) it becomes purely a question of how
> smart is ‘Unngh’ ? Tech level should not change
> that, ‘Unngh’ could prove incapable at
> comprehension of all but the easiest lessons, yet
> that should still have no effect on the use of the
> ‘Matter Trans-locator’ or ‘Fusion gun’ likewise
> ‘Unngh’ could be a genius in the wrong era, and be
> able to (eventually) grasp the higher concepts
> with ease, eventually expanding the fields.
> And that too should have no change on the use of
> the ‘Matter Trans-locator’ or ‘Fusion gun’.
> As for attaching a TL to magic, I see that as a
> bigger error of judgement, unless tech and magic
> ‘in that specific genre’ the same thing.
>
> Whew. Sorry about that. I feel much better now.
>
>
> mik |
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External
Since: Feb 22, 2008
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:08:28 GMT, David Johnston
<david.RemoveThis@block.net> wrote:
>
>Lower TL people learn DX based skills higher TL with no penality when
>given the opportunity. This appears to be the detail you are missing.
Thanks.
I'm still not sure it makes real sense though, are
people from a lower TL assumed to be thick?
No, I don't think that's the case eather, as this
penalty aparently goes both ways, a TL less than
our own would give us problems.
I'd have thought tagging a skill with a TL would
only have importance in deciding if it were
available in a game.
Making it a mechanism in the rules just seems
wrong to me.
And a penalty for being at a more advanced
technological level than the one you're dealing
with seems upside-down.
If there's a modifier it should be in your favor,
you should have an improved perspective on the
subject.
mik |
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External
Since: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 385
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:49 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Dec 1, 2:25 pm, mike <mikes....RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> How is it that you manage to aviod it in a
> multiple TL campaign ?
Because it just doesn't occur very often unless you force it. Why
would you think it would happen? People bring their own equipment and
they're not going to bring stuff they don't know how to use.
> I'd have expected it to raise its nasty head most
> of the time. "The medical facilities here are a TL
> one less than your own, any rolls you make will be
> under a penalty" Sounds a bit mean, doesn’t it ?
> And in some cases I can see a TL jump making
> little difference, after all you know that if
> somone’s bleading you have to stop it and patch
> them up. Is a tech level going to make you less
> aware of it?
Unless you strip the higher tech guys of all their equipment and
require them to do something complicated it just doesn't happen. And
the penalties aren't all that harsh (if any) for "near" techs anyway.
And if it really just bugs you just ignore /TL altogether. |
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External
Since: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 254
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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mike <mikespam RemoveThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> 1) the technology does not need to be understood to be used, and is
> typically designed to be used by people that haven't the foggiest
> notion on how it works, and only care that it does.
Right, which is why the TL of the character is *not* a factor for
learning a new TL-based skill. Anyone who has the opportunity to learn
"Guns/TL8 (Rifle)" can spend a point in it and get it at DX level.
The TL of the character figures in skills only for *default* use, i.e.
without having learned enough to spend a point in the skill. This
reflects the familiarity with the concepts and working knowledge that
the character's TL represents: if TL8 rifles are a current part of the
character's world (i.e. if the character's home TL is TL8), they will
begin learning about them with a much better basis than someone who
has never had any exposure even to second-hand knowledge about such
things.
> And 2) Gurps doesn't seem to make sense with lower TL and higher
> being some form of penalty to use: If it's not your TL you will have
> a hard time with it. Personally I see this as silly, (very silly) as
> shouldn't this be a use of the characters Intelligence? To look at a
> low TL and says 'easy stuff' and at a higher TL as 'Oh, I think I
> get the gist'?
Again, this reflects what the character's home TL is representing. A
TL8 character will, on average, have better exposure to how TL8 rifles
work than TL6 rifles, and this will significantly affect the base of
knowledge they start with when learning archaic technology skills.
> Either way it should not prevent them from using the higher TL
> without the understanding (point 1 again).
It doesn't *prevent* them learning anything; 1 point in "Guns/TL6
(Rifle)" will still earn that skill at DX level regardless of the
home TL of the character.
--
\ "Sittin' on the fence, that's a dangerous course / You can even |
`\ catch a bullet from the peace-keeping force" —Dire Straits, |
_o__) _Once Upon A Time In The West_ |
Ben Finney |
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Since: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 254
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> writes:
> A TL8 character will, on average, have better exposure to how TL8
> rifles work than TL6 rifles, and this will significantly affect the
> base of knowledge they start with when learning archaic technology
> skills.
That's misleading: what I should have written was: "… the base of
knowledge they start with when first attempting to use archaic
technology skills." That is, when attempting to use the skill at
default.
--
\ "I have an answering machine in my car. It says, 'I'm home now. |
`\ But leave a message and I'll call when I'm out.'" —Steven Wright |
_o__) |
Ben Finney |
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External
Since: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 113
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>>>>> "m" == mike <mikespam DeleteThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
m> And in some cases I can see a TL jump making little difference,
m> after all you know that if somone's bleading you have to stop it
m> and patch them up. Is a tech level going to make you less aware
m> of it?
At TL5, the germ theory of disease is a new idea -- you know you need to
stop the bleeding, but the idea that washing your hands and your
instruments might help is alien.
At TL6, antibiotics are brand new.
At TL7, antibiotics are commonplace, as are antibacterial creams, and
the Heimlich maneuver for choking victims is brand new.
At TL8, synthetic skin bandages are commonplace and can be bought in the
grocery store.
Take a paramedic trained in 1995 or so, with TL7 skills, and drop him in
WWII -- only TL6. The basic idea is the same, but the techniques used
are wildly different, and the paramedic's going to have a hurdle in
figuring out how to do what he wants with sulfa drugs.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur DeleteThis @chromatico.net |
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External
Since: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 113
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>>>>> "m" == mike <mikespam.DeleteThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
m> I take your point though. would you also apply the penalty if
m> the equipment was superior, ie: a TL higher ?
How would someone accustomed to pencil and slide rule handle an Apple II
the first time he or she saw it? That's TL6 to TL7, and the equipment
is superior.
How would someone trained in medicine in 1860 (where the discovery that
*germs* cause infection and disease) even know to use antiseptic creams
and antibiotics in 1990? That's TL5 to TL7, and the equipment is
superior.
Both of those justify penalties, I think.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur.DeleteThis@chromatico.net |
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External
Since: Feb 22, 2008
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:55:56 -0800 (PST), WDS
<Bill RemoveThis @seurer.net> wrote:
>On Nov 30, 10:26 am, mike <mikes... RemoveThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> I still haven’t got my mind around this TL
>> concept, and the firearms thread hasn’t helped
>> this at all.
>
>Why are you worrying about it? Even in campaigns with multiple TLs
>I've rarely run into it.
Good question.
I guess it's just that i cannot get it to make
sense, in my terms, and this makes it buzz round
in my mind... and it won't let go.
How is it that you manage to aviod it in a
multiple TL campaign ?
I'd have expected it to raise its nasty head most
of the time. "The medical facilities here are a TL
one less than your own, any rolls you make will be
under a penalty" Sounds a bit mean, doesn’t it ?
And in some cases I can see a TL jump making
little difference, after all you know that if
somone’s bleading you have to stop it and patch
them up. Is a tech level going to make you less
aware of it?
mik |
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External
Since: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <05h8j495hepgcl3ca2v7tje58s2hoa2evj.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
mike <mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> "The medical facilities here are a TL
> one less than your own, any rolls you make will be
> under a penalty" Sounds a bit mean, doesn’t it ?
> And in some cases I can see a TL jump making
> little difference, after all you know that if
> somone’s bleading you have to stop it and patch
> them up. Is a tech level going to make you less
> aware of it?
Basic First-aid is far different from needing the knowledge to use equipment in
and using a "medical facilities here are a TL one less than your own"
One tech level of difference may mean no electrocardiogram for checking out the
heart problem, and no glyceryl trinitrate to treat it.
Try reading the Time Patrol stories of Poul Anderson. He makes good use of the
disparaging Tech Levels to tell his stories, and points out that time agents can
only work in a certain range of eras close to their originating time line to be
able to work effectively (and these agents are able to have data dumped into
their brains a la GURPS Chip Slots).
I dare say that without a cultural familiarity, some base skill rolls are too
high for people on the same tech level. For instance, everyone on our tech level
gets to use a gun at DEX - 4, but we've all seen guns being used on TV. The -4
seams generous since that minus equates to bad aim. I have seen people who have
never handled a gun before up close, and almost all of them are surprised at the
weight and likewise don't know how to take it off safety (or even knew there was
a safety). None of them could hit a target without a good ten minutes of
practice.
Life is realistic, but not very GURPS-like. GURPS is generous.
Check out familiarity on page 169. |
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External
Since: Feb 22, 2008
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:06:22 +1100, Ben Finney
<bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>mike <mikespam.TakeThisOut@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
>> 1) the technology does not need to be understood to be used, and is
>> typically designed to be used by people that haven’t the foggiest
>> notion on how it works, and only care that it does.
>
>Right, which is why the TL of the character is *not* a factor for
>learning a new TL-based skill. Anyone who has the opportunity to learn
>“Guns/TL8 (Rifle)” can spend a point in it and get it at DX level.
Yeeess, but the skill is brought as TL8, and is
not exactly portable to the native TL is it? Use a
Gun from home and even if it's better or worse
design if you try to use "Guns/TL8" skill you
could shoot yourself in the foot.
(I must be very dense, i just don't get it,
nothing is going 'click' into place, but thanks
for trying! )
>The TL of the character figures in skills only for *default* use, i.e.
>without having learned enough to spend a point in the skill. This
>reflects the familiarity with the concepts and working knowledge that
>the character's TL represents: if TL8 rifles are a current part of the
>character's world (i.e. if the character's home TL is TL8), they will
>begin learning about them with a much better basis than someone who
>has never had any exposure even to second-hand knowledge about such
>things.
Baring in mind that a lot of this knowledge could
come from the TV on our own era, I'd worry that
people are learning Movie Physics, rather than
Reality Physics.
(An example: A man is given hart massage and less
than a miniute later the Doc declares him dead.
In the real world it is possible to resart the
hart long past that, if the attempt is carried on
the man could re-start even an hour later. TV
gives out dis-information, no Doctor would quit so
quickly. )
>> And 2) Gurps doesn’t seem to make sense with lower TL and higher
>> being some form of penalty to use: If it’s not your TL you will have
>> a hard time with it. Personally I see this as silly, (very silly) as
>> shouldn’t this be a use of the characters Intelligence? To look at a
>> low TL and says ‘easy stuff’ and at a higher TL as ‘Oh, I think I
>> get the gist’?
>
>Again, this reflects what the character's home TL is representing. A
>TL8 character will, on average, have better exposure to how TL8 rifles
>work than TL6 rifles, and this will significantly affect the base of
>knowledge they start with when learning archaic technology skills.
Fixing it, yes i can accept that, but not using it
or just loading it. Having a problem with pointing
it at bad monster and triggering it?
I would have said that a character that can use a
crossbow would be able to figure out how to use
it.
>> Either way it should not prevent them from using the higher TL
>> without the understanding (point 1 again).
>
>It doesn't *prevent* them learning anything; 1 point in “Guns/TL6
>(Rifle)” will still earn that skill at DX level regardless of the
>home TL of the character.
Not learning; Using. Why should a character have
to take a set of otherwise identical skills, in
order to work without penalty in various
enviroments? |
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External
Since: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 272
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:02 pm
Post subject: Re: TL Tedium [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:25:21 +0000, mike
<mikespam.DeleteThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:55:56 -0800 (PST), WDS
><Bill.DeleteThis@seurer.net> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 30, 10:26 am, mike <mikes....DeleteThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I still haven’t got my mind around this TL
>>> concept, and the firearms thread hasn’t helped
>>> this at all.
>>
>>Why are you worrying about it? Even in campaigns with multiple TLs
>>I've rarely run into it.
>
>Good question.
>I guess it's just that i cannot get it to make
>sense, in my terms, and this makes it buzz round
>in my mind... and it won't let go.
>
>How is it that you manage to aviod it in a
>multiple TL campaign ?
>I'd have expected it to raise its nasty head most
>of the time. "The medical facilities here are a TL
>one less than your own, any rolls you make will be
>under a penalty" Sounds a bit mean, doesn’t it ?
Mean but fair. There's always a penality for inadequate equipment.
It's like picking a lock with a hatpin. |
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External
Since: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:00 pm
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In article <o7i8j4ljjvils7lasiqv4kj8e4t5qbo0v3 RemoveThis @4ax.com> on Mon, 01 Dec
2008 21:01:45 +0000, mikespam RemoveThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk (mike) wrote:
> Fixing it, yes i can accept that, but not using it
> or just loading it. Having a problem with pointing
> it at bad monster and triggering it?
> I would have said that a character that can use a
> crossbow would be able to figure out how to use
> it.
Would the crossbowman be as accurate as he is with his crossbow?
Of course not.
The penalty is how much less accurate he would be.
Let's take an example:
Guns(Rifle)/TL7 is the skill of firing an M-16 or an AK-47 in single-shot
mode.
Guns(Rifle)/TL6 is firing a lever-action rife, like the Winchester, or
the German Mauser'98.
If you took a German soldier from the trenches in 1916 and handed him an
AK-47 he'd be able to work out how to hit things with it, but he'd not
know that it pulls to the left; he'd take time to get the hang of the
folding stock, he'd get the full/semi auto switch confused with the
safety, he'd never work out how to open the bolt to unjam it, he'd be
fishing for a lever he didn't need between each shot.
Now there's a -4 for unfamiliarity which is just about not having the
feel for the gun, and that represents a lot of those problems, but he'd
need real time on the range and proper instruction to clear up on things
like loading, banana clips, keeping track of how much ammo is in the clip,
knowing to switch clips whenever you have a chance. Things that are
instinctive for a Vietnam vet, even though the guy from 'Nam would still
have to learn how to switch from an M-16 to the AK, he has a clear
advantage.
--
Richard Gadsden
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire |
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