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Storyline Events Discussion

 
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echiang777

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Since: Jun 19, 2006
Posts: 73



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Post subject: Storyline Events Discussion
Archived from groups: rec>games>trading-cards>jyhad (more info?)

Now that the Anarchs and Alastors storyline event is over and we have
a brief break before the upcoming Rise of the Imperator, it might be
helpful to digest the latest events and do a little post-game
analysis:



#1. Anarchs and Alastors


1A. Based on the final standings, it looks like there were only 35
events run for the last storyline. IIRC, Millennium Cultist had about
70-80 events, the first Infernal Plague had 82, Return of Nergal had
50 or 60+, and even the much older Eye of Hazimel storyline had over
100 entries. So why was there so little interest in the Anarchs and
Alastors event?

Some possible contributory factors might have been the Limited
Format, a slight rescheduling of the dates for the event, or maybe
people heavily preferred the clan-focused format?


1B. What did people think about the actual rules/format for Anarchs
and Alastors?

I thought it was fun, but I definitely prefer the traditional 75%
clan, constructed events. 5 rounds was agonizingly long, even with
Limited! I liked the Auction Format, but I did feel that it was
significantly easier to go the Anarchs route vs the Alastors one.


1C. The Anarchs were victorious (16 wins) with the Sabbat close behind
(12). What sort of resolution would you like?

I personally think the reward card should be for the winning
faction (Anarchs). While I do like the concept of the "key minion," I
think this should be better represented in the story epilogue rather
than as additional (crypt) reward cards:

- One of the complaints about the Return of Nergal storyline was
that the events heavily favored Nergal because he was guaranteed a
seat at the finals (and hence it was unsurprising that he won by such
a significant margin). Similarly, in Anarchs and Alastors, the key
minion is inherently biased towards the fixed vampires available in
the auction. Thus it is no big surprise that two of the most common
"key minions" (Yazid and Lucinde) were among those who had been pre-
selected for the event.

- Another complaint made during the event was that the Camarilla
was inherently at a significant disadvantage because until mid-
November (when Keepers of Tradition was officially released) there
were no viable Camarilla sets to use in this Limited format. Thus,
Lucinde/Jaroslav/Tatiana didn't have significant support, so the
results were naturally biased in favor of Germaine and Yazid.

- The "key minion" concept was nascent and there were no firm
rules governing the selection. (i.e. the winner could choose a "key
minion" that wasn't even in anyone's deck!).

- Thematically, the significant majority of Yazid's appearances
were on behalf of the Anarchs faction (4 out of 6). I think some of
the Assamite fans would be mad if Advanced Yazid was an Independent
Anarch though!



#2. Rise of the Imperator

So what would people like to see for Rise of the Imperator? Here are
some of my thoughts:


2A. Logically it would only make sense for a handful of clans to
actually secure the Imperator position. The six Camarilla clans
(Brujah, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere, and Ventrue)
obviously. And there are enough Assamites and Gangrel that one of them
could plausibly hold the position as well. Longshots would include
Followers of Set, Lasombra (antitribu of course), Gargoyles, Samedi,
and maybe Ravnos, but in all those cases it would be extremely hard to
achieve that thematic result (i.e. lots of Lasombra wins featuring
Giangaleazzo).

It also seems hard to fit in what sort of "victory" would result
if the Imbued or the Laibon win. If a Sabbat clan wins, maybe they are
able to sabotage the entire process? Seems a bit far-fetched to think
that they could pull another "Marcus Vitel"-style infiltration at such
a high level though. What do you think the non-Camarilla clans should
get if they win?


2B. I do like the "key minion" concept but if it continues it might
make sense to require your "key minion" to actually be in your crypt
(and to be of your clan, if there is the 75% rule).


2C. Assuming that there's still a 75% clan requirement, Recalled to
the Founder should remain on the banned list. I also think Condemn the
Sins of the Father should be added as well since everyone is required
to follow the clan restrictions and Condemn would otherwise be an auto-
include in any Assamite/Quietus decks and give them an unfair
advantage. Perhaps Consanguinous Condemnation (but at least you have
to pass a referendum to get it done and it's not like it's been a
significant card in past storylines). And the Trophy mechanic is still
too janky to bother worrying about Trophy: Clan Respect. Any other
thoughts about what should (or should not be) banned?



Obviously the ultimate decisions lie in the hands of the storyline
team (Ben Swainbank), LSJ, and/or White Wolf. But I figure it doesn't
hurt to open some discussion on the issues, to give them some
potentially useful ideas!
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Zappo

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Since: Dec 12, 2008
Posts: 2



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Just my few cents...

I really liked the concept of Auction in this storyline and I enjoyed
this event as a whole. The main trouble I got with it was the length.
We cut it down to I believe 3 rounds, and it was still long enough.
Running five rounds would be really uncomfortable.

I like the drafts, and we were drafting 3rd edition (great for
drafting) and KoT (new, also pretty good edition) - however this means
that the anarch/alastor angle was a bit unused most of the time. And I
think that when draft is the format, it will always be the same,
ignoring the fluff of the tournament. Because "My 11cap vampire on my
fourth turn goes Alastor, finds bangnagh, on the 5th round tries to
rush someone, gets foiled by one maneuver and on the next round I am
dead, because all my predators minions were bleeding me for one..." is
more common in draft.

The other format I like is clan based decks - and I think storyline
events are great opportunities to try it!
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Jazzbeaux

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Since: Apr 27, 2007
Posts: 21



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

>      - Another complaint made during the event was that the
Camarilla
> was inherently at a significant disadvantage because until mid-
> November (when Keepers of Tradition was officially released) there
> were no viable Camarilla sets to use in this Limited format. Thus,
> Lucinde/Jaroslav/Tatiana didn't have significant support, so the
> results were naturally biased in favor of Germaine and Yazid.

The Storyline was popular in Bath, and we managed to draw all the
players together over three weeks.
Week 1 was initial draft and round 1, then two rounds each subsequent
week. We did have a few players that missed a game, but I sent out
the boosters to them so they could include the right number of cards
for next time.
Also I had some Jyhad boosters, which combined with Lords of the Night
and 3rd/Sword of Caine meant that the Camarilla were well
represented. Indeed, I think that the Anarchs were lacking generally,
because we didn't have the relevant boosters.

>      - The "key minion" concept was nascent and there were no firm
> rules governing the selection. (i.e. the winner could choose a "key
> minion" that wasn't even in anyone's deck!).

That could have been tightened up, I asked players to selection
minions that they at least played!

Sam
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witness1

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 173



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:37 am
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Dec 29, 8:50 am, acheronnightstal....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> > an advanced Yazid that was independent (and not black hand), but with
> > anarch as merged text would be cool (so merged he'd be anarch and black
> > hand...neat!)
>
> > or just a merged ability that lets him play cards as if he was an anarch...
>
> It would be most stupid thing. In vtm lore he was always sabbat, and
> should stay sabbat. An advanced SABBAT version will be welcome.

Totally. It's not like the entire point of a storyline tournament is
to influence the story or anything.

-witness1
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ricardo.marta

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Since: Dec 29, 2008
Posts: 1



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:15 am
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

My two cents from this corner of the world (Portugal).

On 29 Dez, 03:59, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> #1. Anarchs and Alastors
>
> 1A. Based on the final standings, it looks like there were only 35
> events run for the last storyline. IIRC, Millennium Cultist had about
> 70-80 events, the first Infernal Plague had 82, Return of Nergal had
> 50 or 60+, and even the much older Eye of Hazimel storyline had over
> 100 entries. So why was there so little interest in the Anarchs and
> Alastors event?

The material came late, my local retailer had problems to get us the
material, i had to buy it in the internet along with several players,
once they got the kits they didn't show any interest in doing the
Storyline, thou i might try to run it in the future if i get my hands
on other kits and if i have enough players interested in doing it so.

> 1B. What did people think about the actual rules/format for Anarchs
> and Alastors?
>
> I thought it was fun, but I definitely prefer the traditional 75%
> clan, constructed events. 5 rounds was agonizingly long, even with
> Limited! I liked the Auction Format, but I did feel that it was
> significantly easier to go the Anarchs route vs the Alastors one.

I agree 5 rounds is too much, but it was a specific tournment, the
problem is that some players didn't had the time to spend two days in
it and if people started with a pre-made 40 library cards/8 vampires,
with would be more easy to accomplish.

> 1C. The Anarchs were victorious (16 wins) with the Sabbat close behind
> (12). What sort of resolution would you like?

I believe that the right timming for this event should be after the
KoT release, it doesn't make much sence to have (Camarilla) Alastors
so weak, since you had the oportunity to play with TR, a huge boost in
the anarch game. If KoT came before this storyline, it would probably
be more attractive to all players.

Hope the next storyline brings up more interest among players.

Cheers
Ricardo Marta
Prince of Lisbon, Portugal
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Curevei

External


Since: Dec 29, 2008
Posts: 6



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:35 am
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Dec 28, 7:59 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang... RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Now that the Anarchs and Alastors storyline event is over and we have
> a brief break before the upcoming Rise of the Imperator, it might be
> helpful to digest the latest events and do a little post-game
> analysis:
>
> #1. Anarchs and Alastors
>
> 1A. Based on the final standings, it looks like there were only 35
> events run for the last storyline. IIRC, Millennium Cultist had about
> 70-80 events, the first Infernal Plague had 82, Return of Nergal had
> 50 or 60+, and even the much older Eye of Hazimel storyline had over
> 100 entries. So why was there so little interest in the Anarchs and
> Alastors event?

Locals don't like draft, but they can be forced to.

The most hugest problem was the length of the event. Either you had
to have the exact same players show up over multiple sessions, which
pretty much meant for us that you would never have more than 4 people
play in an event and that we would never bother even trying to run one
or you needed to squeeze everything into one day, which was utterly
exhausting and we only did three rounds. After the one day thing, I
was curious as to what it would be like to have an event run like a
league, but you need more than one person interested in order to play.

Speaking of leagues, the only league that has ever worked here was the
Prophecies league. It worked because each play group could play it as
part of the normal get togethers and because it involved constructed
decks so players could come or go. Still, it wasn't the most
fantastic thing ever. Our winner stopped playing for a while to give
the others a chance to catch up, which they never did. The rules were
often horrendously unpleasant and the whole thing lasted so long that
there was no enthusiasm for it around the midpoint.

On the flip side, people really like the idea of championing a clan -
in my mind, the 75% rule is what justifies storyline events. Only a
tiny amount of the player base is likely into variant play or wants to
see events created just to get unique promos.


> 1B. What did people think about the actual rules/format for Anarchs
> and Alastors?
>
>     I thought it was fun, but I definitely prefer the traditional 75%
> clan, constructed events. 5 rounds was agonizingly long, even with
> Limited! I liked the Auction Format, but I did feel that it was
> significantly easier to go the Anarchs route vs the Alastors one.

The people who did play it enjoyed it. I thought the best thing about
it was the multiple rounds of draft. Drafts bore me these days. By
having a deck evolve between rounds, you avoided the "well, did my
best to make this deck, could someone else play it for me now?"
feeling that I have toward draft.

I didn't think the auction worked well. Sure, it added something, but
much like the pool auction for the infernal event, there's too much
chance of people doing things that don't make sense. All of the
storyline events that require people to think about the rules need to
be played a minimum of 3 times locally (people aren't interested in
planning ahead), and there was no way this sort of event would ever
get played more than twice with all of the logistical headaches.

> 1C. The Anarchs were victorious (16 wins) with the Sabbat close behind
> (12). What sort of resolution would you like?

Does it matter? We can pretend that we have influence in these
events, but really, I don't see that anything I've ever done in any of
the events has ever made a difference.

>      - The "key minion" concept was nascent and there were no firm
> rules governing the selection. (i.e. the winner could choose a "key
> minion" that wasn't even in anyone's deck!).

Could, but why would someone? The key minion thing was actually quite
amusing. We could have had Order of Hermes Cabal be the key minion
for our event.

> 2B. I do like the "key minion" concept but if it continues it might
> make sense to require your "key minion" to actually be in your crypt
> (and to be of your clan, if there is the 75% rule).

Um, no. Key minion should be whatever minion you think was your key
minion since the whole concept of key minion is so nebulous to begin
with. In constructed play, people should find it rather easy to make
Rock Cat or whatever their key minions, which is perfectly fine. Of
course, in constructed play without rules to encourage the play of
particular minions, the chance's of any key minion being key for more
than about 2 people are negligible. There was an inevitability to the
key minion for the A&A event being one of the auction cards. Key
minion in constructed should require something like what was done in
Montreal and then it's just going to be one out of a list provided by
the event designer.
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echiang777

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Since: Jun 19, 2006
Posts: 73



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Dec 29, 5:15 am, Salem <kella... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

> > 2C. Assuming that there's still a 75% clan requirement, Recalled to
> > the Founder should remain on the banned list. I also think Condemn the
>
> why? won't it also screw you yourself. unless you're playing a star vamp
> deck. in which case you need all the help against weenie decks you can
> get. has anyone even tried seeing what happens? it's not like you can
> just drop Recalled onto the table turn 1.


Yes, except that you won't be screwed because you design your deck
around Recalled to the Founder so it won't affect you.

The 75% clan requirement imposes an artificial restriction that makes
you much more vulnerable to Recalled to the Founder (and other such
effects).

If anything, forcing everyone to plan around Recalled to the Founder
would severely limit deck creativity, which would detract from a lot
of the enjoyment of such an event.


> > Sins of the Father should be added as well since everyone is required
> > to follow the clan restrictions and Condemn would otherwise be an auto-
> > include in any Assamite/Quietus decks and give them an unfair
> > advantage.
>
> Quietus decks need all the help they can get. Assamites win by not using
> quietus, so that doesn't matter.


Before Kindred Most Wanted and Lords of the Night, I would agree that
Quietus needed the help. Now, I strongly disagree:

- Loss lets the Assamite do stealth bleed

- Selective Silence is golden for offensive combat decks and also
defense

- Blood Awakening combos well with Black Sunrise and Market Square for
an intercept deck. Or use it with Deed the Heart's Desire and Elder
Impersonation for a "you can't block" deck.

- Strike at the True Flesh provides free stackable damage. Ah, the
good ole days of stackable Pulled Fangs.

- And Retain the Quick Blood helps significantly with blood management
(and works on Celerity too).


> also, these cards are theoretically balanced in regular play. >50% of
> the time i see mono-clan decks anyway...and yet these cards aren't
> exactly being stuffed into every deck. which you'd think they would be
> if it were that great an advantage...


I agree that Condemn is balanced in regular play. It has a potentially
strong effect but you can't guarantee what sort of decks (and clan
compositions) other people will play (high opportunity cost).

But in a storyline where everyone is required to have minimum 75% clan
crypts, you know for certain that the card will be able to almost
certainly have an overpowering effect (minimal risk).

Similarly, if everyone was required to play 75% Malkavian decks,
allowing Malkavian Dementia would be unbalancing. The card is balanced
in normal play, because you can't guarantee you'll see a Malkavian.
But if you *know* people will be required to play Malkavian, then the
power of the card increases dramatically in that particular
circumstance/environment.
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Curevei

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Since: Dec 29, 2008
Posts: 6



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Dec 29, 5:58 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang... DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I love draft, but I dislike draft text. But then again, I'm from the
> old school of draft players, where trying to make a functional deck
> with hard-to-use cards is part of the challenge! Draft text just makes
> it too easy.

I used to be interested in draft. I wouldn't say that draft text is
the only reason I'm not any longer, but it doesn't help.

It's more than just making drafting easier, it's that draft text has
made drafting more generic. The concept of putting draft text on
cards is reasonable since there were plenty of people not into
drafting that may be more interested if they didn't have to be good at
drafting to make a functional deck. Also, sealed play is helped quite
a bit. I don't recall ever doing a sealed booster event for any CCG
prior to doing one with KoT. The result was amusingly decks much like
V:TES draft decks of old.

The problem is that there's not a great deal of science put into the
draftferiors. Cards that require common disciplines get draftferiors
that require other common disciplines or no disciplines, and so
forth. That a card with a draftferior can very well be perfectly
playable without means it requires no thought to draft such cards.
Conversely, a card that would have been ignored in the past is scooped
up because it's so easy to play. For instance, where one drafter may
be trying something clever, like taking all of the Protean cards, the
other drafters are drafting the Protean cards mainly for the Celerity
or Obfuscate versions because there's nothing better in the packs.
All of the drafting converges. Disciplines, clans, and whatnot can't
be "cut" like they could in the past (to a degree), leaving the
skilled drafter with fewer tools for winning the draft portion of the
draft.

Then, look at many of the effects you get from draft text. I used to
rarely draft stealth bleed in the days of Sabbat War. Now, I get
stuck with it all of the time because of how often draft text is
either plus bleed or plus stealth. Maybe the crop of current best
drafters looks beyond such and they have a better drafting strategy,
but given my decreased interest in drafting, I'm not going to put the
work in to figure out how to outdraft the person who picks up easy
bleed and easy stealth, especially as I don't want my opponents
getting such quality cards. Once upon a time, yes, it could be said
that drafts caused me to play differently from constructed; now, I
play the same stealth bleed games I've been playing for the last 12
years.

The draft version of Spell of Life is absurd, absurd that the card has
a draft version at all, but other than encouraging errata to have it
removed from tournament play, I don't feel a compelling need to harp
on it.
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Salem

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Since: Jun 30, 2008
Posts: 200



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:59 am
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Curevei wrote:
....
> The most hugest problem was the length of the event. Either you had
> to have the exact same players show up over multiple sessions, which
> pretty much meant for us that you would never have more than 4 people
> play in an event and that we would never bother even trying to run one
> or you needed to squeeze everything into one day, which was utterly
> exhausting and we only did three rounds. After the one day thing, I
> was curious as to what it would be like to have an event run like a
> league, but you need more than one person interested in order to play.
>

maybe we did it 'wrong', but we allowed players to come and go, and we
played it out over 3 game sessions.

If a player missed a game, we just gave them a booster to add to their
deck (and if they missed the first game, we just gave them a bunch of
boosters to build a deck out of).

Worked out quite well, we thought.

If anything, I think if the event was run like this it could be run for
MORE rounds. I think we would have been quite happy playing 7 rounds
over 4 game nights.

night 1 is initial draft plus game 1, night 2 is 2 games, night 3 is 2
games, etc.

We play weekly, and it gave us lots of time to think about our decks
between sessions and make tweaks etc. Enthusiasm was quite high. I must
admit, I personally bid on a few cards because I wanted to own them, not
because of their league/tournament utility. Not too sure how that sort
of thing could be worked around...maybe not include rare cards in the
bidding card pool?

--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
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Peter D Bakija

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Since: Jun 26, 2005
Posts: 1727



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:54 pm
Post subject: Draftferior (was Re: Storyline Events Discussion) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article
<9e97487f-981c-4072-943d-6886cbaed049.TakeThisOut@k1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
Curevei <Curevei.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
> It's more than just making drafting easier, it's that draft text has
> made drafting more generic. The concept of putting draft text on
> cards is reasonable since there were plenty of people not into
> drafting that may be more interested if they didn't have to be good at
> drafting to make a functional deck.

Yeah, I'm pretty ok with this. I've played a lot of Draft events in VTES
over the years, and while I have never been all that good at it (except
for the LotN draft this last summer at Origins where I built a
ridiculously effective Spell of Life deck, swept both preliminary
tables, and only lost the final 'cause the whole table essentially spite
whacked me...), and one of the problems has always been the vast number
of different cards doing different things. And, yeah, Draftferiors
certainly make it easier to make decks that you can actually play. Which
likely makes it harder for people who are really good at drafting to
maximize their goodness ('cause the cards they were going to totally
school us with for their discipline use lose them out due to the much
more generic draftferior text), but does help the much larger group of
people who aren't super good at drafting be able to make decks that are
relatively playable. Which strikes me as a reasonable trade off, but one
that I can certainly see disagreement with.

> The problem is that there's not a great deal of science put into the
> draftferiors.

Yeah, I'll certainly agree that draftferior texts seem to be fairly
haphazard. And Spell of Life is certainly completely ba-roken in draft.
So I agree that the concept could use some refinement, but I think the
basic idea is solid.

Peter D Bakija
pdb6.TakeThisOut@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html

"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?"
-Gaff
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Ruwon

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Since: Dec 30, 2008
Posts: 5



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Personally I didn't attend the one run here because i was not the least bit
interested in the format


<echiang777.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b30a3849-b4cd-49be-b0d2-c76c6c421f70@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> Now that the Anarchs and Alastors storyline event is over and we have
> a brief break before the upcoming Rise of the Imperator, it might be
> helpful to digest the latest events and do a little post-game
> analysis:
>
>
>
> #1. Anarchs and Alastors
>
>
> 1A. Based on the final standings, it looks like there were only 35
> events run for the last storyline. IIRC, Millennium Cultist had about
> 70-80 events, the first Infernal Plague had 82, Return of Nergal had
> 50 or 60+, and even the much older Eye of Hazimel storyline had over
> 100 entries. So why was there so little interest in the Anarchs and
> Alastors event?
>
> Some possible contributory factors might have been the Limited
> Format, a slight rescheduling of the dates for the event, or maybe
> people heavily preferred the clan-focused format?
>
>
> 1B. What did people think about the actual rules/format for Anarchs
> and Alastors?
>
> I thought it was fun, but I definitely prefer the traditional 75%
> clan, constructed events. 5 rounds was agonizingly long, even with
> Limited! I liked the Auction Format, but I did feel that it was
> significantly easier to go the Anarchs route vs the Alastors one.
>
>
> 1C. The Anarchs were victorious (16 wins) with the Sabbat close behind
> (12). What sort of resolution would you like?
>
> I personally think the reward card should be for the winning
> faction (Anarchs). While I do like the concept of the "key minion," I
> think this should be better represented in the story epilogue rather
> than as additional (crypt) reward cards:
>
> - One of the complaints about the Return of Nergal storyline was
> that the events heavily favored Nergal because he was guaranteed a
> seat at the finals (and hence it was unsurprising that he won by such
> a significant margin). Similarly, in Anarchs and Alastors, the key
> minion is inherently biased towards the fixed vampires available in
> the auction. Thus it is no big surprise that two of the most common
> "key minions" (Yazid and Lucinde) were among those who had been pre-
> selected for the event.
>
> - Another complaint made during the event was that the Camarilla
> was inherently at a significant disadvantage because until mid-
> November (when Keepers of Tradition was officially released) there
> were no viable Camarilla sets to use in this Limited format. Thus,
> Lucinde/Jaroslav/Tatiana didn't have significant support, so the
> results were naturally biased in favor of Germaine and Yazid.
>
> - The "key minion" concept was nascent and there were no firm
> rules governing the selection. (i.e. the winner could choose a "key
> minion" that wasn't even in anyone's deck!).
>
> - Thematically, the significant majority of Yazid's appearances
> were on behalf of the Anarchs faction (4 out of 6). I think some of
> the Assamite fans would be mad if Advanced Yazid was an Independent
> Anarch though!
>
>
>
> #2. Rise of the Imperator
>
> So what would people like to see for Rise of the Imperator? Here are
> some of my thoughts:
>
>
> 2A. Logically it would only make sense for a handful of clans to
> actually secure the Imperator position. The six Camarilla clans
> (Brujah, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere, and Ventrue)
> obviously. And there are enough Assamites and Gangrel that one of them
> could plausibly hold the position as well. Longshots would include
> Followers of Set, Lasombra (antitribu of course), Gargoyles, Samedi,
> and maybe Ravnos, but in all those cases it would be extremely hard to
> achieve that thematic result (i.e. lots of Lasombra wins featuring
> Giangaleazzo).
>
> It also seems hard to fit in what sort of "victory" would result
> if the Imbued or the Laibon win. If a Sabbat clan wins, maybe they are
> able to sabotage the entire process? Seems a bit far-fetched to think
> that they could pull another "Marcus Vitel"-style infiltration at such
> a high level though. What do you think the non-Camarilla clans should
> get if they win?
>
>
> 2B. I do like the "key minion" concept but if it continues it might
> make sense to require your "key minion" to actually be in your crypt
> (and to be of your clan, if there is the 75% rule).
>
>
> 2C. Assuming that there's still a 75% clan requirement, Recalled to
> the Founder should remain on the banned list. I also think Condemn the
> Sins of the Father should be added as well since everyone is required
> to follow the clan restrictions and Condemn would otherwise be an auto-
> include in any Assamite/Quietus decks and give them an unfair
> advantage. Perhaps Consanguinous Condemnation (but at least you have
> to pass a referendum to get it done and it's not like it's been a
> significant card in past storylines). And the Trophy mechanic is still
> too janky to bother worrying about Trophy: Clan Respect. Any other
> thoughts about what should (or should not be) banned?
>
>
>
> Obviously the ultimate decisions lie in the hands of the storyline
> team (Ben Swainbank), LSJ, and/or White Wolf. But I figure it doesn't
> hurt to open some discussion on the issues, to give them some
> potentially useful ideas!
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echiang777

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Since: Jun 19, 2006
Posts: 73



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jan 1, 7:02 pm, acheronnightstal... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> I would get over quietus if celeriity would have freak drive [could be
> with cappacity restriction, or slightly worse than freak drive] or way
> to untap directly in combat. THEN, quietus will be viable [mainly it's
> about Retain the Quick Blood to help Quietus/Celerity blood
> management].


Not a big fan of CrimethInc? (Ironically enough, an Advanced Anarch
Yazid would really be able to have fun with CrimethInc).

Sorry, but I don't want to see every discipline have their own version
of Freak Drive. And the existence of Retain the Quick Blood, the Path
of Blood, Sajid, and Izhim means a Quietus Freak Drive would be
severely overpowered. Similarly, a Chimerstry Freak Drive would be bad
because of Fatuus Mastery, Path of Paradox, Gabrin, and Karavalanisha
Vrana. I really don't want to see any more solitaire Una-style
decks....

Um...speaking of untap and multiple actions, have you been paying
attention to the past several sets? Helicopter gives you a permanent
untap effect (and the Assamites have OBF to get the first action
through). Or if you want the untap for combat, then have you tried
Monster? Also, the Assamites are the only clan with *two* Black Hand
Seraphs in a given grouping and are tied with the most Black Hand
members in a given grouping (tied with !Gangrel) so they can abuse the
hell out of Seraph's Second and Tattoo Signal. Have you ever gotten
Djuhah and Izhim out each with a Tattoo Signal? So no, I don't think
things are quite as dire for the Assamites as you make them out to be.

Hey, at least Celerity's been getting some really good cards the past
several sets. Resist Earth's Grasp is amazing! Maneuver *and* press at
inferior is great for combat decks. And superior offers a nice stealth
option if you don't want to focus on Obfuscate (or you're playing with
Viziers). Fleetness gives you built-in stealth for bleeding with
permanents. Or a stealthed Ambush so you aren't easily blocked by a
disposable weenie. And superior Torrent is just plain wicked! Much
better than what Obtenebration (Shadow Body) or Chimerstry (Mirror
Image) offers and is great for bleed or politics. Sure, it's expensive
but you'll get all the blood back with Retain the Quick Blood.
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Peter D Bakija

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Since: Jun 26, 2005
Posts: 1727



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: Storyline Events Discussion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jan 2, 9:45 am, acheronnightstal....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> No, i hate anarchs with passion.

Sure. But the option is there. Quietus is has really good Anarchy
options. That you don't want to use them doesn't mean that they are
bad.

> Celerity freak drive would be:
> -more in line with VtM background
> -not really game breaking

Celerity gets Flurry of Action (which is a pretty good card in and of
itself) and half of Forced March (that a bunch of Assamites can use).
It doesn't need more untapping.

> Ravnos already have freak drive, and celerity freak drive would solve
> (!)toreador/(!)brujah/!gangrel/(!)assamite problems.

The Toreador and Brujah (anti or not) don't have problems. The !
Gangrel have problems, but they aren't problems that would be solved
by a celerity Freak Drive (especially since just as many !Gangrel have
fortitude as not). The Assamites do just fine now.

> yeah, but Djuhah is underpowered as second seraph. He have OBF QUI
> [useless] cel [useless] aus pre and seraph title.

You are *really* overstating the "Quietus is useless" angle here.
Loss, in and of itself, makes the Assamites really scary. Add in easy
to use ranged aggrivated damage, a really good free untap reaction,
and an intercept/block fails card, and Quietus has become quite handy.
Yeah, a whole lot of Quietus cards are really janky, not generally
useful combat cards. But the cards that it gets that are good are
really good. Even if the only combat cards the Assamites ever use are
Flash and Taste of Death, that is good enough hit back or
opportunistic combat for most situations. Add in Selective Silence,
and you don't even need celerity.

Trying to use the Assamites as a pure combat deck is generally going
to fail, yes. But if you maximize the newer Quietus cards, and
relegate Assamite combat to scary hitback and opportunistic killing,
they can be really effective. Even without Anarch tech.

-Peter
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Peter D Bakija

External


Since: Jun 26, 2005
Posts: 1727



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Quietus (was Re: Storyline Events Discussion) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article
<678a6e3b-a5be-41d9-be75-e5f487e9fff4.DeleteThis@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
acheronnightstalker.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> Now animalism is better than before and they have warsaw station.
> yeah, not strongest, but way better than before.
> Setites have great clan cards [ethernal of sirius, mokole blood, opium
> den, vote push] and SER is actually good [snake drive, nice combat and
> synergy with ambulans/protean and of course temptation]

You really think so? I find Serpentis to be really kind of lame in the
grand scheme. It has a few very good new cards (Truth of 10K Lies,
Eternal Mask), but for the most part, it isn't doing much that the
Settites couldn't already do with Obfuscate or Presence. The whole
Serpentis combat angle (Typhonic Beast) is almost good, but is generally
*way* too much work to be worth the effort. At least Quietus provides
the Assamites with some things they *can't* get reliably from Obf/Cel
(i.e. bleed).

> And i would love to get rid of mandatory AUS/FOR/DOM ...

Well, ya know, that's the whole game, not just the Assamites.

> There are, for NEC its Shambling Hordes

But other than Shambling Hordes, what is Necromancy really doing for
anyone? Providing less good stealth than Obfuscate? Giving some clever
recursion? Before Shambling Hordes, Necromancy was mostly relegated to
poor stealth as a delivery mechanism for the Giovanni's dominate and for
fringe tricky decks (turbo whatever; funny ally recursion; whatever).
Shambling Hordes is pretty much all that Necromancy has going for it, in
terms of actually good strategies.

> For CHI its Sensory Deprivation/Occlusion/Mirror Image ... yeah, not
> so good. But better than quietus.

Sensory Deprivation has been in Chimeristry since day one (and hasn't
been reprinted since, apparently...), and is strong. But other than
that, Chimeristry isn't a real powerhouse of a discipline either. Some
stealth, some reasonably good intercept, a bit of bleed increase, and
some complicated tricky stuff. But again, nothing real super fantastic.

> It's more difficult to have superior quietus mid cap deck than say PRE/
> DEM/DOM mid cap decks.

Well, yeah. Only one clan comes with Quietus. Lots of clans come with
thos other disciplines. But if you are playing the clan with Quietus,
getting QUI isn't difficult at all. If you wanna use QUI/CEL, use G2/3.
If you wanna use QUI/OBF, use G4/5. The crypts are pretty good for
either.

> VIC do it better. PRO do it better

Neither give you +2 bleed ever. Neither give you the ability to set
range. Neither give you block fails tech (well, ok, you can pay 4 blood
for that preposterous protean card). Which when combined with easy to
use 2R aggrivated damage makes for a reasonably good box of tools to
make the Assamites generally effective. Which they are.

Peter D Bakija
pdb6.DeleteThis@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html

"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?"
-Gaff
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J

External


Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 202



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:04 am
Post subject: Re: Quietus (was Re: Storyline Events Discussion) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> Neither give you +2 bleed ever. Neither give you the ability to set
> range. Neither give you block fails tech (well, ok, you can pay 4 blood
> for that preposterous protean card). Which when combined with easy to
> use 2R aggrivated damage makes for a reasonably good box of tools to
> make the Assamites generally effective. Which they are.
>
> Peter D Bakija
> p... RemoveThis @lightlink.comhttp://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
>

Just take your face and slam it into a brick wall Peter. The result
will be the same, but it'll just be quicker.

--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/grail_j
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