SORCERER TIME PARADOX QUESTION

Here, sockpanda RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
> Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
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> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
>
> Ok, so I am in the part in the coal mine. Our older self gives us the
> combination, takes the book. We go east, find our way to the chute,
> use the time travel scroll to get the other scroll, then drop down,
> give the combo, get the book and exit.
>
> The shimmering time travel scroll being in the coal room when we get
> there, I think I understand...it effectively never leaves the room (I
> went back and checked, once we cast it its lying on the floor again,
> which means we have traveled back to a moment in time before we used
> it, as did our older self, so it basically never leaves the room.)
>
> But how does our older twin know the combination in the first place?
>
> The older twin is us a few minutes into the future. He has to be,
> because the potion that lets you breathe only lasts a few minutes.
> And since we never do anything in those few minutes between younger
> and older self to learn the combination, how could our older self ever
> have learned it?

Alternate answer, which is a more traditional time-travel paradox
answer:

He remembers it, because he learned it when he was younger. When did
this happen? When a person appeared and gave it to him. There's
nothing confusing about that part, is there? You (at the "younger"
stage) learn the combination from somebody. It happens right there on
screen.

--Z

--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*

On Dec 7, 6:08 pm, John W Kennedy <jwke... RemoveThis @attglobal.net> wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> > Here, sockpa... RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
> >> Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPOILER
>
> >> Ok, so I am in the part in the coal mine.  Our older self gives us the
> >> combination, takes the book.  We go east, find our way to the chute,
> >> use the time travel scroll to get the other scroll, then drop down,
> >> give the combo, get the book and exit.
>
> >> The shimmering time travel scroll being in the coal room when we get
> >> there, I think I understand...it effectively never leaves the room (I
> >> went back and checked, once we cast it its lying on the floor again,
> >> which means we have traveled back to a moment in time before we used
> >> it, as did our older self, so it basically never leaves the room.)
>
> >> But how does our older twin know the combination in the first place?
>
> >> The older twin is us a few minutes into the future.  He has to be,
> >> because the potion that lets you breathe only lasts a few minutes.
> >> And since we never do anything in those few minutes between younger
> >> and older self to learn the combination, how could our older self ever
> >> have learned it?
>
> > Alternate answer, which is a more traditional time-travel paradox
> > answer:
>
> > He remembers it, because he learned it when he was younger. When did
> > this happen? When a person appeared and gave it to him. There's
> > nothing confusing about that part, is there? You (at the "younger"
> > stage) learn the combination from somebody. It happens right there on
> > screen.
>
> And, in fact, if you fail to inform your younger self, the game ends,
> because you've destroyed the universe by creating a contradiction. You
> have to do it, because you've always done it, just like Jeffrey Sinclair.
> --
> John W. Kennedy
>   Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!http://pws..prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html

I'm not questioning why you have to GIVE the combination to your
younger self. That's obvious, you have to because, in fact, you
did.

I'm questioning how you could ever KNOW it in the first place.

I get it, that it's a time loop. I guess it's a variation of the old
philosophy class where your older self teaches you to build a time
machine, you spend your life building it, then go back in time to
teach your younger self to build it. How did you ever learn to build
it in the first place?

I guess I just find it unsatisfying. The knowledge of the combination
seems to me to require a time loop that had to have been precipitated
by the casting of the spell that created the time loop in the first
place, but the casting of the spell is impossible without the
existence of the time loop, so it seems to me to be a paradox.

In any case, I do think its different from the example of "How do you
know not to enter the glass maze without the bat scroll? " That one
you can, at least conceivably, figure out by experience. Your first
step into the maze lands you in a room where you can't see the walls
or ceilings....you can extrapolate that you need help to navigate it,
and there is still a chance, after you've entered the maze, to figure
out you need the fweep spell and leave and go get it and come back.
Admittedly, a lot of us probably died a bunch of times before we
figured it out, but its technically not impossible and it doesn't
involve us knowing something we couldn't possibly know.

Anyhow, enjoyed the conversation, thanks.

Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> Here, sockpanda.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>>
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>>
>> Ok, so I am in the part in the coal mine. Our older self gives us the
>> combination, takes the book. We go east, find our way to the chute,
>> use the time travel scroll to get the other scroll, then drop down,
>> give the combo, get the book and exit.
>>
>> The shimmering time travel scroll being in the coal room when we get
>> there, I think I understand...it effectively never leaves the room (I
>> went back and checked, once we cast it its lying on the floor again,
>> which means we have traveled back to a moment in time before we used
>> it, as did our older self, so it basically never leaves the room.)
>>
>> But how does our older twin know the combination in the first place?
>>
>> The older twin is us a few minutes into the future. He has to be,
>> because the potion that lets you breathe only lasts a few minutes.
>> And since we never do anything in those few minutes between younger
>> and older self to learn the combination, how could our older self ever
>> have learned it?
>
> Alternate answer, which is a more traditional time-travel paradox
> answer:
>
> He remembers it, because he learned it when he was younger. When did
> this happen? When a person appeared and gave it to him. There's
> nothing confusing about that part, is there? You (at the "younger"
> stage) learn the combination from somebody. It happens right there on
> screen.

And, in fact, if you fail to inform your younger self, the game ends,
because you've destroyed the universe by creating a contradiction. You
have to do it, because you've always done it, just like Jeffrey Sinclair.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html

Just don't ask where the umbrella in Trinity came from, or how old it
is when you pick it up. That will really blow your mind.

Here, Jeffy K 93 <jeffreyjkaufman DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not questioning why you have to GIVE the combination to your
> younger self. That's obvious, you have to because, in fact, you
> did.
>
> I'm questioning how you could ever KNOW it in the first place.

Your use of the word "first" indicates your mistake. There is no
"first" in a time loop.

> I get it, that it's a time loop. I guess it's a variation of the old
> philosophy class where your older self teaches you to build a time
> machine, you spend your life building it, then go back in time to
> teach your younger self to build it.

Exactly. Again, there is no "first" there. Each event precedes itself,
so each event can cause itself.

> I guess I just find it unsatisfying.

That is okay.

> In any case, I do think its different from the example of "How do you
> know not to enter the glass maze without the bat scroll? "

You are correct there. My first post was hasty. (Although there *are*
plenty of scenes in classic IF which you couldn't reasonably figure
out by careful observation in a single live-through. Places where you
have to find everything in one area before going through a
surprisingly one-way portal, for example. They're not logically
impossible or paradoxical -- but the odds are against you, which is
why I say the protagonist is *lucky*.)

--Z

--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*

Jeffy K 93 wrote:
> On Dec 7, 6:08 pm, John W Kennedy <jwke... DeleteThis @attglobal.net> wrote:
>> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>>> Here, sockpa... DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> SPOILER
>>>> Ok, so I am in the part in the coal mine. Our older self gives us the
>>>> combination, takes the book. We go east, find our way to the chute,
>>>> use the time travel scroll to get the other scroll, then drop down,
>>>> give the combo, get the book and exit.
>>>> The shimmering time travel scroll being in the coal room when we get
>>>> there, I think I understand...it effectively never leaves the room (I
>>>> went back and checked, once we cast it its lying on the floor again,
>>>> which means we have traveled back to a moment in time before we used
>>>> it, as did our older self, so it basically never leaves the room.)
>>>> But how does our older twin know the combination in the first place?
>>>> The older twin is us a few minutes into the future. He has to be,
>>>> because the potion that lets you breathe only lasts a few minutes.
>>>> And since we never do anything in those few minutes between younger
>>>> and older self to learn the combination, how could our older self ever
>>>> have learned it?
>>> Alternate answer, which is a more traditional time-travel paradox
>>> answer:
>>> He remembers it, because he learned it when he was younger. When did
>>> this happen? When a person appeared and gave it to him. There's
>>> nothing confusing about that part, is there? You (at the "younger"
>>> stage) learn the combination from somebody. It happens right there on
>>> screen.
>> And, in fact, if you fail to inform your younger self, the game ends,
>> because you've destroyed the universe by creating a contradiction. You
>> have to do it, because you've always done it, just like Jeffrey Sinclair.
>> --
>> John W. Kennedy
>> Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!http://pws..prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html
>
> I'm not questioning why you have to GIVE the combination to your
> younger self. That's obvious, you have to because, in fact, you
> did.
>
> I'm questioning how you could ever KNOW it in the first place.
>
> I get it, that it's a time loop. I guess it's a variation of the old
> philosophy class where your older self teaches you to build a time
> machine, you spend your life building it, then go back in time to
> teach your younger self to build it. How did you ever learn to build
> it in the first place?
>
> I guess I just find it unsatisfying. The knowledge of the combination
> seems to me to require a time loop that had to have been precipitated
> by the casting of the spell that created the time loop in the first
> place, but the casting of the spell is impossible without the
> existence of the time loop, so it seems to me to be a paradox.
>
> In any case, I do think its different from the example of "How do you
> know not to enter the glass maze without the bat scroll? " That one
> you can, at least conceivably, figure out by experience. Your first
> step into the maze lands you in a room where you can't see the walls
> or ceilings....you can extrapolate that you need help to navigate it,
> and there is still a chance, after you've entered the maze, to figure
> out you need the fweep spell and leave and go get it and come back.
> Admittedly, a lot of us probably died a bunch of times before we
> figured it out, but its technically not impossible and it doesn't
> involve us knowing something we couldn't possibly know.

It's Timetown, Jake.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:19:37 -0800, sockpanda said to the parser:

> Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
> SPOILER
>
> if anyone has figured out an answer to this (other than some bill-and-
> ted thing like "after the game, our future future self traveled back
> in time and told our future self the combo"), please let me know. I
> always loved this puzzle, and I would love to think that there is some
> in game logic I am missing as to how it could work, without resorting
> to filling in the gaps with stuff thats not cannon, as it were.

The original, canonical "older self" read it on a piece of paper that he
got after an extremely complicated puzzle. After doing all that, he
decided it would be much simpler for other versions of himself if he just
*told* them the combination.

Once he told the first younger version, the complicated puzzle with the
piece of paper was not necessary, and thus never experienced by anybody
else.

Makes as much sense as any other explanation....

--
Michael Coyne
http://turthalion.blogspot.com

"Michael Coyne" <coyneAT.TakeThisOut@mtsDOT.net> wrote in message
news:hCa%k.99$dm3.81@newsfe02.iad...
> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:19:37 -0800, sockpanda said to the parser:
>
>> Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>>
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>> SPOILER
>>
>> if anyone has figured out an answer to this (other than some bill-and-
>> ted thing like "after the game, our future future self traveled back
>> in time and told our future self the combo"), please let me know. I
>> always loved this puzzle, and I would love to think that there is some
>> in game logic I am missing as to how it could work, without resorting
>> to filling in the gaps with stuff thats not cannon, as it were.
>
> The original, canonical "older self" read it on a piece of paper that he
> got after an extremely complicated puzzle. After doing all that, he
> decided it would be much simpler for other versions of himself if he just
> *told* them the combination.
>
> Once he told the first younger version, the complicated puzzle with the
> piece of paper was not necessary, and thus never experienced by anybody
> else.

You could think of it as a "parallel time stream" ... in time stream A,
he read the combination from a piece of paper, then went back to tell
his younger self, at which point time stream B was created (with an
"alternate future" that doesn't include the "reading the combination"
event in time stream A). But then stream A shouldn't really include a
memory of meeting his future self.

David Fisher

On Dec 7, 10:46 pm, Andrew Plotkin <erkyr... RemoveThis @eblong.com> wrote:
> Here, Jeffy K 93 <jeffreyjkauf... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > I get it, that it's a time loop.  I guess it's a variation of the old
> > philosophy class where your older self teaches you to build a time
> > machine, you spend your life building it, then go back in time to
> > teach your younger self to build it.
>
> Exactly. Again, there is no "first" there. Each event precedes itself,
> so each event can cause itself.

This is the sort of discussion that leads to organized religion.
Unchain your mind from this dogmatic belief that all things must begin
and end. Just because your existence is defined by birth and death
does not mean that all things must have such limits.

Why do I feel like I've given that explanation before?

On Dec 16, 6:08 pm, Russ Bryan <rbryan.nay....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is the sort of discussion that leads to organized religion.
> Unchain your mind from this dogmatic belief that all things must
> begin and end. Just because your existence is defined by birth
> and death does not mean that all things must have such limits.
>
> Why do I feel like I've given that explanation before?

More importantly, who invented that explanation, and did he learn it
from the future?

On Dec 8, 9:58 am, "Michael Coyne" <coyn... DeleteThis @mtsDOT.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:19:37 -0800, sockpanda said to the parser:
>
>
>
> > Replaying Infocom's Sorcerer and confused....
>
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
> > SPOILER
>
> > if anyone has figured out an answer to this (other than some bill-and-
> > ted thing like "after the game, our future future self traveled back
> > in time and told our future self the combo"), please let me know.  I
> > always loved this puzzle, and I would love to think that there is some
> > in game logic I am missing as to how it could work, without resorting
> > to filling in the gaps with stuff thats not cannon, as it were.
>
> The original, canonical "older self" read it on a piece of paper that he
> got after an extremely complicated puzzle.  After doing all that, he
> decided it would be much simpler for other versions of himself if he just
> *told* them the combination.
>
> Once he told the first younger version, the complicated puzzle with the
> piece of paper was not necessary, and thus never experienced by anybody
> else.
>
> Makes as much sense as any other explanation....


There's an even simpler explanation. The first time your older self
reached the mine he tried the lowest possible combination. When that
failed, he went back in time and told his younger self to try the next
combination in sequence. This went on until the right combination was
found.

Piece of cake. No paradox required.

On Dec 16, 7:14 pm, Russ Bryan <rbryan.nay....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There's an even simpler explanation. The first time your older
> self reached the mine he tried the lowest possible combination.
> When that failed, he went back in time and told his younger self
> to try the next combination in sequence. This went on until the
> right combination was found.
>
> Piece of cake. No paradox required.

Doesn't make sense. By the time the older self reaches the mine,
he's already received the correct combination (from when he was your
younger self). It is impossible to reach the mine without already
KNOWING the combination. So the recursion can never get off the
ground.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:14:24 -0800, Russ Bryan said to the parser:

> There's an even simpler explanation. The first time your older self
> reached the mine he tried the lowest possible combination. When that
> failed, he went back in time and told his younger self to try the next
> combination in sequence. This went on until the right combination was
> found.
>
> Piece of cake. No paradox required.

Very nice recursive explanation--I like it!

--
Michael Coyne
http://turthalion.blogspot.com