Rods, staves and wands as projectiles

In article
<256e2b64-9aa2-4df7-ae21-ae91ef65fd7a RemoveThis @56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
SeaHen <seahen123 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> Can rods, staves and wands be fletched and fired as arrows, either to
> deliver them to an intended user with less risk of interception, or
> (in the case of a Rod of Cancellation) to take out a Sphere of
> Annihilation from a safe distance? Are they as likely to break as
> ordinary arrows?

Staves would pretty well have to be fired from ballistae, I'm afraid;
your ordinary longbow or crossbow just isn't up to the task. Also, they
are fashioned in such manner that the wood is stronger on the sides when
a staff is used as a weapon than at the ends - and shoeing them so they
won't split is going to interfere with the aerodynamics something awful.

Rods are also sturdy but also lack aerodynamic qualities, even in the
editions before 3. When used as weapons, as the Rod of Smiting is meant
to be, the wood is cut so that the grain is stronger when struck from
the side than when struck on an end. Also, Spheres of Annihilation (aka
Black Holes) are *meant* to be dangerous to deadly - closer to deadly,
actually. As a DM, I would permit a PC to try to throw one (though the
AC wouldn't be easy) and, provided a) the PC hit the Sphere and b) the
PC shouted out the command word at *precisely* the correct instant
(meaning that I roll 1dN and the player rolls 1dN of the same value and
we both get the same result), it would probably work. However, it's
entirely possible that the destruction would cause a bolt of negative
energy to flash back along the trajectory of the rod....

Wands are brittle. They're meant to be easy to break - read almost any
fantasy or even fairy tale that incorporates their use. As a player, *I*
wouldn't try to launch one from a bow of any kind even provided I could
get a proper nock in it without either rendering the want completely
useless or causing a disastrous release of energy. The G forces
involved in the launch itself might be enough to shatter a wand.

Baird

On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 18:25:00 -0700 (PDT), David Klassen
<klassen.RemoveThis@rowan.edu> wrote:

>On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can rods, staves and wands be fletched and fired as arrows, either to
>> deliver them to an intended user with less risk of interception, or
>> (in the case of a Rod of Cancellation) to take out a Sphere of
>> Annihilation from a safe distance? Are they as likely to break as
>> ordinary arrows?

>I'd say NO WAY for rods (2--3 ft. long, 5 pounds, made of iron)
>and staves (4--7 ft. long, 2--3 in. diameter, 5 pounds). In fact, it
>would be hard to do it for wands (6 inches to 12 inches long) as
>they're just way too short for a proper draw.


I'd allow the 0-level spell LAUNCH BOLT (Sp Comp) to send a wand
flying. If the wand had fletching I'd give it half the range
increment of a dart (i.e. 10') because it still isn't weighted
correctly. Without fletching I'd give it a 5' range increment.

The DMG says a typical wand has AC 7, hardness 5 and 5 hp. That's the
same hardness and hit points as a arrow or crossbow bolt (wood, 1/2"
thick). So using the same chance of it being lost or destroyed is a
good starting point. But as a DM I would modify it a bit. The
standard "Shoot an arrow into an opponent = destroyed" includes an
initial hard target in most cases (armor or tough hide) followed by
additional damage while the target moves with this arrow stuck in it.
The standard "Shoot at an opponent and miss = 50% lost or destroyed"
assumes a random chance to hit hard targets, soft targets or just keep
going. It also assumes you're going to be too busy to try to keep
track of it. If you had a soft target to aim at (say, a haybale) the
chances of breakage would be less. Skittering it along the floor down
a dungeon corridor might be relatively safe. If the person you're
trying to pass this to isn't in melee, the chances of spotting where
it goes is likewise greater, and of course it's magic so any sort of
DETECT MAGIC ability would help that person find it. So you'd have
several ways to improve your odds with me.

Passing someone a wand in this fashion is not something to try as a
routine maneuver. If this is a "Heroic Last Ditch Effort Because
Otherwise The World Dies" sort of thing, however, it might get the
benefit of some DM fudging in my game. Maybe I'm just an old softy,
but I like inventive play.

Of course, it's a rare person who keeps track of the hit points on
their wands. Most DMs don't bother to assign damage-as-you-go, the
wands are just "OK until something happens that's big enough to break
it." But if you were going to try this on a regular basis I'd assign
damage as seemed appropriate during an adventure.

You can't get them to trigger at the point of impact, however (like
you apparently want the Rod of Cancellation to do). Spell Trigger
items go off when YOU trigger them, not on contact. It's not like a
touch attack spell where it can stay active as a threat until you hit
the opponent. (If it's a wand that HOLDS a touch attack spell, the
effect goes directly to your hand when triggered, it doesn't stay on
the end of the wand.)

Now, in 1E/2E it was a fairly common House Rule that any broken
wand/rod/staff MIGHT mean an explosion from the release of stored
magical energy. Not as bad as a Retributive Strike from a Staff Of
The Magi or a Staff Of Power, but still significant. A Wand of Fire
was much more likely explode (say, in a 5d6 FIREBALL) than a Wand of
Enemy Detection. I haven't seen that being used as a House Rule in
3.X campaigns very often, though. Broken is just broken.

On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can rods, staves and wands be fletched and fired as arrows, either to
> deliver them to an intended user with less risk of interception, or
> (in the case of a Rod of Cancellation) to take out a Sphere of
> Annihilation from a safe distance? Are they as likely to break as
> ordinary arrows?

As others pointed out, while staves are normally tossed sidways to a
partner within 10-15', they are essentially thicker non-pointy spears
so it -should- be possible to toss one accordingly with similar effect
although catching it would become more difficult so it seems
reasonsable for the catcher to make a to-hit roll to receive it
without dropping.

Rods(Scepters) are more problematic for while you might be able to
load-n-throw some like javins, the majority are highly ornate and
simply are -not- aerodynamic, quickly crashing after an erratic
flight. Further, their shorter length and decorations give the catcher
far less area to grasp; -4 on the to-catch roll seems approbriate.

Wands however would be more reasonable, although as mentioned
elsewhere they are far shorter than a normal arrow/bolt. A possible
solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
normal arrow's accuracy and range. However consideration needs made
regarding safely catching the arrow-wand mid-flight as this method
increases the chance of damaging or losing the wand.

As for your suggested use of triggering the effects from a distance,
it would depend upon your campaign. Is there precident for triggering
without touching? (ie: my wand (resting on the table) begins glowing
when I say the Light command-word while walking into the room.) If
so, then I suppose the propsed ranged-attack method -would- work
provided the wand was within hearing range.

On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...A possible
> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
> normal arrow's accuracy and range.

I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
charge.

--
C.

Harold Groot <quester.TakeThisOut@infionline.net> wrote:
>
> Of course, it's a rare person who keeps track of the hit points on
> their wands. Most DMs don't bother to assign damage-as-you-go, the
> wands are just "OK until something happens that's big enough to break
> it."

Mookstick!

Sorry, 'minionstick'. But I like the word 'mookstick' better.


Keith
--
Keith Davies You know you're working too much when you
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org receive spam with
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The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...A possible
>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>
> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
> charge.

When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also made
magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be placed on
the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I could, if I
had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to Eric Palmer (the
GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that one day I'll run
into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking it down with some
regular arrow."

Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
>
>> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...A possible
>>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>>
>>
>> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
>> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
>> charge.
>
>
> When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
> campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
> Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also made
> magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be placed on
> the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I could, if I
> had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to Eric Palmer (the
> GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that one day I'll run
> into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking it down with some
> regular arrow."
>
> Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
> wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.
>
>

Back in the days of 1E I played a Ranger Lord that carried around a
ballista with adamantine bolts for just such occasions. Carried in a
portable hole of course.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP

Tetsubo wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...A possible
>>>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>>>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>>>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
>>> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
>>> charge.
>>
>>
>> When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
>> campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
>> Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also
>> made magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be
>> placed on the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I
>> could, if I had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to
>> Eric Palmer (the GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that
>> one day I'll run into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking
>> it down with some regular arrow."
>>
>> Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
>> wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.
>>
>>
>
> Back in the days of 1E I played a Ranger Lord that carried around a
> ballista with adamantine bolts for just such occasions. Carried in a
> portable hole of course.
>

Well, naturally. There was also Fritz Blitz, who had a dragon-sized Bag
of Holding with a decanter of wind inside for air, and an entire small
army of Hobgoblins living inside.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp.DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
>> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...A possible
>>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>>
>> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
>> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
>> charge.
>
> When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
> campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
> Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also made
> magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be placed on
> the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I could, if I
> had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to Eric Palmer (the
> GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that one day I'll run
> into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking it down with some
> regular arrow."
>
> Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
> wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.

I always did want to read "An American Gamer in Gondor", and I think I
stumbled on one piece of it on USENET years ago, but I've never been
able to find the whole thing. I don't suppose you would send me a copy?


Keith
--
Keith Davies You know you're working too much when you
keith.davies.DeleteThis@kjdavies.org receive spam with
keith.davies.DeleteThis@gmail.com "Subject: Erection issues resolved!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ and you go looking for the trouble ticket.

Keith Davies wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
>>> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...A possible
>>>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>>>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>>>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>>> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
>>> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
>>> charge.
>> When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
>> campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
>> Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also made
>> magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be placed on
>> the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I could, if I
>> had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to Eric Palmer (the
>> GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that one day I'll run
>> into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking it down with some
>> regular arrow."
>>
>> Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
>> wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.
>
> I always did want to read "An American Gamer in Gondor", and I think I
> stumbled on one piece of it on USENET years ago, but I've never been
> able to find the whole thing. I don't suppose you would send me a copy?
>

Only seven pieces were actually posted. I will have my Loyal Lieutenant
send you those seven.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
>>>> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...A possible
>>>>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>>>>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>>>>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>>>> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
>>>> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
>>>> charge.
>>> When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
>>> campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
>>> Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also made
>>> magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be placed on
>>> the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I could, if I
>>> had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to Eric Palmer (the
>>> GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that one day I'll run
>>> into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking it down with some
>>> regular arrow."
>>>
>>> Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
>>> wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.
>>
>> I always did want to read "An American Gamer in Gondor", and I think I
>> stumbled on one piece of it on USENET years ago, but I've never been
>> able to find the whole thing. I don't suppose you would send me a copy?
>
> Only seven pieces were actually posted. I will have my Loyal Lieutenant
> send you those seven.

They have been received, thank you.


Keith
--
Keith Davies You know you're working too much when you
keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org receive spam with
keith.davies.RemoveThis@gmail.com "Subject: Erection issues resolved!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ and you go looking for the trouble ticket.

Keith Davies wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Keith Davies wrote:
>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> The Rev. Dr. Lt. Chaos Israel wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 31, 8:00 am, Jefgorb... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Aug 30, 8:07 pm, SeaHen <seahen... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ...A possible
>>>>>> solution would inserting the wand into a carrier frame providing the
>>>>>> proper notch,fletching and length which should get you close to a
>>>>>> normal arrow's accuracy and range.
>>>>> I think at that point, it might just be better to make a purpose-built
>>>>> Arrow of Cancellation. Especially considering it would only need 1
>>>>> charge.
>>>> When Erik Arisia, the Wanderer, forged the Staff of Stars in the
>>>> campaign which I chronicled for a while in "An American Gamer in
>>>> Gondor", it was designed with a sharp point at its base and I also made
>>>> magnetically-attached vanes/feathers which would be able to be placed on
>>>> the steel reinforcing inlay at specific points, so that I could, if I
>>>> had to, use the Staff as a ballista bolt. As I said to Eric Palmer (the
>>>> GM) when I was designing it, "I have a feeling that one day I'll run
>>>> into a dragon, and I'm not going to count on taking it down with some
>>>> regular arrow."
>>>>
>>>> Many months later, the Great Dragon Frostreaver discovered that a
>>>> wizard with foresight is a very dangerous opponent indeed.
>>> I always did want to read "An American Gamer in Gondor", and I think I
>>> stumbled on one piece of it on USENET years ago, but I've never been
>>> able to find the whole thing. I don't suppose you would send me a copy?
>> Only seven pieces were actually posted. I will have my Loyal Lieutenant
>> send you those seven.
>
> They have been received, thank you.


You're welcome. Enjoy.

The Staff of Stars would have been forged in the eighth section
(partially written). Frostreaver wouldn't show up for quite some time
later, though.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Jim Davies wrote:
> On the grave of "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com>
> is inscribed:
>
>> Well, naturally. There was also Fritz Blitz, who had a dragon-sized Bag
>> of Holding with a decanter of wind inside for air, and an entire small
>> army of Hobgoblins living inside.
>
> There's a whole bunch of KotDT stories about that...

This pre-dates KotDT by at least a decade, I'd guess. This was about 1980.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com