Paladins

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:40:02 -0800 (PST), "bigcozybear@gmail.com"
<bigcozybear.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>Greetings --
>
>I've been on and off playing DnD and other games for some years now.
>The problem I have is that I have always wanted to play a paladin but
>am unable to because there is always the one player that wants to be
>neutral in an evil kind of way. That always causes problems. So my
>question is this. What classes are there for an 'evil/neutral'
>paladin (non-prestige) wannabe? Can someone give me book/page
>references please?
>
>Joe


I'm not entirely clear on what you want. Any character can ACT like a
Paladin. You could have a Fighter or even a Rogue attempt to live up
to the ideals of a Paladin. They won't get any Paladin abilities, of
course, but neither would they lose any class abilities by journeying
with a neutral teammate with evil tendencies.

If you are looking for "What warrior-type class gets cool abilities,
maybe with some that are sorta like those a paladin gets but can be
neutral or even evil?", that's something else. You aren't going to
get abilities that are extremely close to being the same as the
abilities a paladin has, but you can find some similarities. Just as
useful, perhaps just as cool - but different.

Of course, even an EVIL Fighter can try to live up to the ideals of a
Paladin. Might even succeed MOST of the time - but then there's that
Evil that happens every now and then. If you live up to the ideals of
a Paladin 364 days a year but sacrifice an innocent newborn baby every
New Years Eve you'll still be considered Evil. It doesn't matter if
you save the entire universe during your 364 days of Goodness.

You might want to look at a Hexblade (COMPLETE WARRIOR page 5).
Non-good alignment. Gets about as many spells as a Paladin (arcane,
not divine). Gets a Familiar instead of a Special Mount. You get
Mettle (pretty much "evasion for Fort and Will saves") instead of the
Divine Grace save bonuses that Paladins get. Instead of Smite Evil
you get a Hexblade's Curse (gives penaties to an opponent rather than
doing extra damage). D10 hit dice, full BAB. No spellcasting
penalties for light armor, but full penalties beyond that. However,
you could take a feat (Battle Caster, from COMPLETE ARCANE p.75) that
would let you wear medium armor without penalties. If you get Mithral
Heavy Armor it is treated as Medium Armor in terms of penalties. So
you could be a Full-BAB, Full-Hit-points, Full-Plate-Armored warrior
with some limited spell use and a special animal.

If you go this route, COMPLETE MAGE p.92 gives additional spells a
Hexblade can use beyond the ones given in COMPLETE WARRIOR. If you
got some skill levels in training animals and taught a horse a few
tricks you might be able to convince the peasants that you WERE a
Paladin. You wouldn't convince those who actually knew much about the
class, though. The lack of DETECT EVIL and LAYING ON HANDS and a GOOD
AURA and such would be a giveaway. Of course, you could try to get
hold of magic items that could duplicate some of that. Inquisitor
Gauntlets let you do a CURE MEDIUM WOUNDS at the same time you attack
someone. If you were just doing stun damage with your open hand, the
CURE would erase the stun damage as well as doing curing of lethal
damage.

There might also be something in the BOOK OF 9 SWORDS - I'm not really
familiar with that book, but in general it's a real boost in terms of
getting a warrior-type non-prestige class PC to be roughly as powerful
as straight spellcasters. Someone else would have to give advice on
that, though.

On Dec 28, 7:40 pm, "bigcozyb...@gmail.com" <bigcozyb....RemoveThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've been on and off playing DnD and other games for some years now.
> The problem I have is that I have always wanted to play a paladin but
> am unable to because there is always the one player that wants to be
> neutral in an evil kind of way.  That always causes problems.  So my
> question is this.  What classes are there for an 'evil/neutral'
> paladin (non-prestige) wannabe?  Can someone give me book/page
> references please?


Play a Cleric. Pick the right domains and spells and you have
something that does a reasonably good job of emulating a Paladin of
whatever alignment you want.

Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
can't 'see' it. A Paladin would only have problems with a neutral-evil
character if they did something evil that the Paladin knows about.

<bigcozybear.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bd4d560e-dd0b-4783-bb87-97768f8a5479@w34g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> Greetings --
>
> I've been on and off playing DnD and other games for some years now.
> The problem I have is that I have always wanted to play a paladin but
> am unable to because there is always the one player that wants to be
> neutral in an evil kind of way. That always causes problems. So my
> question is this. What classes are there for an 'evil/neutral'
> paladin (non-prestige) wannabe? Can someone give me book/page
> references please?

Do you want to play a paladin because you like playing a character with the
paladin's set of ideals and principles? Or do you want to play a character
who possesses the paladin's class features, or something similar, regardless
of principles?

If the former, then as has been stated, you can just play any character as
having a paladin's moral outlook. If you want to retain something of the
concept's flavour, go with a multiclass fighter/cleric of a Lawful Good
deity.

If the latter, you could look into the variant paladins from Unearthed
Arcana, included in the d20 SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#...adinVar

http://tinyurl.com/6l7ueq

Even if those don't suit your needs, you could use them as the basis for
creating a variant paladin class of your own, with your DM's permission of
course.

--
Mark

On Dec 29, 10:59 am, Kaos <k....TakeThisOut@xplornet.com> wrote:

> >Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
> >can't 'see' it.
>
> Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"  


Detect Evil does't work on ordinary people, except under extraordinary
circumstances. Merely being evil isn't enough.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html

Shawn Wilson wrote:
> Kaos wrote:
>
> > >Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
> > >can't 'see' it.
>
> > Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"  
>
> Detect Evil does't work on ordinary people, except under extraordinary
> circumstances.  Merely being evil isn't enough.

Actually, yes it does and yes it is.

> http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html

Good reference though, it pretty much contradicts your whole point.



John

On Dec 29, 8:04 am, "bigcozyb...@gmail.com" <bigcozyb....TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Dec 29, 6:23 am, "Mark Blunden"
>
> <markDASHbATskyDOT....TakeThisOut@address.invalid> wrote:
> > Do you want to play a paladin because you like playing a character with the
> > paladin's set of ideals and principles? Or do you want to play a character
> > who possesses the paladin's class features, or something similar, regardless
> > of principles?
>
> Kinda both really.  I like the ideal warrior with the ability sets of
> being able to be a secondary healer if needed by the group.

Crusader from Book of Nine Swords. By RAW you can be any alignment
except True Neutral. You get Smite, though not as often as a paladin
but can be against anyone. You don't get Divine Grace, but you do get
Charisma bonus to Will saveand can reroll a saving throw once per
day. No Mount or Remove Disease but who cares. You get a built in
buff to hit and damage when you are hurt. Instead of Lay On Hands you
can take maneuvers that heats hit points on yourself or another while
at the same time you hurt your enemy.

It has often been said that Crusader is a "fix" for Paladins, and
that's not without merit. Once you are used to how the Crusader's
maneuver system works you will have a similar game mechanics feel of
playing a Paladin.

Gerald Katz

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:06:35 -0800 (PST), Shawn Wilson
<ikonoqlast.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 28, 7:40 pm, "bigcozyb...@gmail.com" <bigcozyb....RemoveThis@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> I've been on and off playing DnD and other games for some years now.
>> The problem I have is that I have always wanted to play a paladin but
>> am unable to because there is always the one player that wants to be
>> neutral in an evil kind of way.  That always causes problems.  So my
>> question is this.  What classes are there for an 'evil/neutral'
>> paladin (non-prestige) wannabe?  Can someone give me book/page
>> references please?
>
>
>Play a Cleric. Pick the right domains and spells and you have
>something that does a reasonably good job of emulating a Paladin of
>whatever alignment you want.
>
>Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
>can't 'see' it.

Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"
Which a Paladin does have according to RAW (unless this has been
changed in 3.5e or higher?)

"Shawn Wilson" <ikonoqlast RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b0a5afb8-eda6-42a1-9463-3d26c02b612a@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

> Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
> can't 'see' it.

Kinda ironic saying that in a conversation about paladins, isn't it?

--
Mark

In article <011e438d$0$32023$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
"Mark Blunden" <markDASHbATskyDOTcom RemoveThis @address.invalid> wrote:

> "Shawn Wilson" <ikonoqlast RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:b0a5afb8-eda6-42a1-9463-3d26c02b612a@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
> > can't 'see' it.
>
> Kinda ironic saying that in a conversation about paladins, isn't it?

Irony does not make the observation less true....

Baird

--
Bumper sticker: "If you can't operate your turn signal,
what makes you think you can drive the rest of the car?"

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:58 -0800, Shawn Wilson wrote:

> On Dec 29, 10:59 am, Kaos <k....TakeThisOut@xplornet.com> wrote:
>
>> Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"  
>
> Detect Evil does't work on ordinary people, except under extraordinary
> circumstances. Merely being evil isn't enough.

Incorrect, detect <alignment> spells detect any creature with the
appropriate alignment. That's what the first line in the Aura Power table
is for.

The "extraordinary circumstances" are for cases where a creature either
detects at a stronger level, (e.g. Clerics, Paladins and Blackguards), or
detects as <alignment> while not having that alignment. (e.g. Detect Evil
will always return a positive result on Undead, Clerics of evil gods and
creatures with the Evil Subtype regardless of alignment.)

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)

Rick Pikul wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:58 -0800, Shawn Wilson wrote:
>
>
>>On Dec 29, 10:59 am, Kaos <k....RemoveThis@xplornet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"
>>
>>Detect Evil does't work on ordinary people, except under extraordinary
>>circumstances. Merely being evil isn't enough.
>
>
> Incorrect, detect <alignment> spells detect any creature with the
> appropriate alignment. That's what the first line in the Aura Power table
> is for.
>
> The "extraordinary circumstances" are for cases where a creature either
> detects at a stronger level, (e.g. Clerics, Paladins and Blackguards), or
> detects as <alignment> while not having that alignment. (e.g. Detect Evil
> will always return a positive result on Undead, Clerics of evil gods and
> creatures with the Evil Subtype regardless of alignment.)
>

And I'll argue to the ends of the earth that mindless undead aren't
evil. Not any more evil than an animated chair.

I've always ruled that a paladin can only react to an evil action. Even
if they detect evil on a person, until that person does something evil
they can't do anything other than watch. Evil is about actions, not intent.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP

In article <gjbf6r$to9$1@news.motzarella.org>,
Tetsubo <tetsubo.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:

> Rick Pikul wrote:

> > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:58 -0800, Shawn Wilson wrote:

> >>On Dec 29, 10:59 am, Kaos <k....DeleteThis@xplornet.com> wrote:

> >>>Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"

> >>Detect Evil does't work on ordinary people, except under extraordinary
> >>circumstances. Merely being evil isn't enough.

> > Incorrect, detect <alignment> spells detect any creature with the
> > appropriate alignment. That's what the first line in the Aura Power table
> > is for.

> > The "extraordinary circumstances" are for cases where a creature either
> > detects at a stronger level, (e.g. Clerics, Paladins and Blackguards), or
> > detects as <alignment> while not having that alignment. (e.g. Detect Evil
> > will always return a positive result on Undead, Clerics of evil gods and
> > creatures with the Evil Subtype regardless of alignment.)

> And I'll argue to the ends of the earth that mindless undead aren't
> evil. Not any more evil than an animated chair.

A point I've raised before which raised howls of protest in returns, on
the grounds that the energy to animate 'em comes from the Negative
Plane. My problem with that, of course, is that negative energy is no
more "evil" than positive energy is "good." As I mentioned before,
"good" and "evil" require intelligence even to conceive, much less act
upon, and energy in and of itself is not intelligent.

> I've always ruled that a paladin can only react to an evil action. Even
> if they detect evil on a person, until that person does something evil
> they can't do anything other than watch. Evil is about actions, not intent.

Actually, intent does count: if an evil character does not act upon
his/her "evil" or "good" intentions, then that character is "neutral" in
my view, rather than either of the extremes.

Of course, either (provided the class doesn't specify otherwise) can
have deeper purposes and want to appear harmless (relatively) until they
can STRIKE! Buw-wah-ha-ha-ha! (And yes, deviousness is *not*, in any of
my multiverses, limited to evil characters! Good does not equal stupid!)

Baird

--
Bumper sticker: "If you can't operate your turn signal,
what makes you think you can drive the rest of the car?"

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:58 -0800 (PST), Shawn Wilson
<ikonoqlast RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 29, 10:59 am, Kaos <k... RemoveThis @xplornet.com> wrote:
>
>> >Also note- alignment is a GAME mechanic, characters in the game world
>> >can't 'see' it.
>>
>> Barring effects such as "Detect <alignment.>"  
>
>
>Detect Evil does't work on ordinary people, except under extraordinary
>circumstances. Merely being evil isn't enough.
>
>http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html

I sense an "invisible door"-like argument over what qualifies as
"creature" coming soon to a newsgroup near you.