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Since: Dec 12, 2006 Posts: 283
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:56 pm
Post subject: PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>strategic, others (more info?)
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everyone who played / plays RTS games, including Dune 2, Command &
Conquer series Red Alert, WarCraft series, Starcraft series, Total
Annihilation, Warzone 2100,
Jagged Alliance series, Tiberian Sun, Conflict Zone, Red Alert 2,
Kohan, Age of Empires series, Homeworld, Warlords: Battlecry, LoTR:
Battle For Middle Earth series,
Star Wars: Empire at War, and countless others
you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
States.
http://www.wolfgames.com/mdherzog.JPG
http://www.discountgames.org/images/Herzog%20Zwei%20BS.jpg
Herzog Zwei was a real-time strategy game with arcade/shmup elements.
when i say shmup i don't mean first-person shooters (i,e, Doom, Quake)
that everyone on the PC knows, i'm talking about overhead shmups like
Xevious, Ikari Warriors, Thunder Force II (also by Technosoft /
Tecnosoft), Aleste, Raiden, Truxton/Tetsujin, Granada, etc.
Herzog Zwei, although it had these arcade/shooter/shmup elements, was
very much a strategy game, and realtime.
Herzog Zwei came out LONG before Command & Conquer, and even before
Dune 2 / II.
Most PC gamers only acknowledge Dune 2/II as the first RTS game. that
simply is not true. It was Herzog Zwei that started the whole RTS
genre. even though Herzog Zwei was not technically the first RTS game
ever (Herzog by Tecnosoft came out before on the MSX computer in Japan
in 1988, before the sequel, Herzog Zwei, and a game called 'Cytron
Masters' was apparently the very first RTS game, back in the early
1980s on one of the Atari machines, i know nothing about it) but
Herzog Zwei is where everything launched from, because it was more
widely available, modern enough / fast enough to make a massive
impression on those developers (like Westwood) that would later take
RTS to the PC with games like Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, and create a
huge genre out of it.
there are almost NO RTS games that match the frantic pace of Herzog
Zwei and the almost totally unique aspect in that you ARE actually a
unit yourself, a transformable mecha / fighter-cargo jet, not just some
mouse cursor / pointer on the screen.
there was a somewhat recent homebrew / shareware / freeware
RTS/shoot'em up game made for the PC that was totally inspiried by
Herzog Zwei. it's called Rapid Aerial Deployment, and while it is not
nearly as good as Herzog Zwei, the developer did their best to pay
homage to the first significant RTS game, Herzog Zwei.
-Rapid Aerial Deployment quite is playable.
looking ahead, I am *so* looking forward to Supreme Commander on the
PC. it is the closest game I have ever, EVER seen to what I had always
imagined a 3D polygonal, map zoomable Herzog Zwei-like game could be
like. while Supreme Commander has little in commen with Herzog Zwei
and more in commen with Total Annihilation because its the same main
person in charge of development (AFAIK), and Supreme Commander is said
to be the spiritual sequel / successor to Total Annihilation.
Supreme Commander has to be, now, my most anticipated game for any
platform, after watching both the teaser trailer and the gameplay
demonstration.
trailer - http://www.tinyurl.com/zlr2m
demonstration - http://www.tinyurl.com/om3tc
i know this cross posted to several off-topic groups, but so be it,
and, my spelling, grammer, etc is not exactly, great. again, so be it.
i wanted to make this a permanent recognition of Herzog Zwei as the
first RTS game of any real value, for all time.
now, bring on Supreme Commander! |
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Since: Dec 12, 2006 Posts: 283
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:34 am
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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| that's completely acceptable to me, because it seems to be true, from
everything i remember about the beginnings of the survival horror
games. good point riku
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Since: May 15, 2006 Posts: 85
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:53 am
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the c64
predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by many
years...
there was also halloween and texas chainsaw massacre for the atari
2600...... spaltterhouse in the arcades....
-stu |
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Since: Jun 12, 2006 Posts: 774
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:45 am
Post subject: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Dec 12, 2006 Posts: 283
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:59 pm
Post subject: Re: PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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well Herzog Zwei, the first major RTS game, was played with a console
control pad, not a mouse, and you could only control one unit at a
time, but that does not mean Herzog Zwei wasn't an RTS.
I will agree though, that RTS games are more tactical than strategic.
Herzog Zwei was different in that, you actually were one of the units
in battle. you carried your forces to where ever they needed to be.
you fought with them, not just commanded them.
there ARE actually many PC gamers / RTS gamers that know, realize and
accept that Herzog Zwei was the real starting point for all RTS games,
including Dune 2. while Dune 2 was different, and while Westwood had
defined their own style of RTS game which many followed, I think even
Westwood has acknowledged that Herzog Zwei was the inspiration for
thier first RTS games, Dune 2 and C&C.
With Herzog Zwei, its 4 megabits of ROM and the limited processing
capabilities of the Sega MegaDrive - Genesis hardware, each side could
have a max of 50 units made, placed on the map. 100 units max between
the two sides. (red and blue). even then, with 100 units (even 70-90)
there was slowdown. the Genesis was only using a 7.6 Mhz 68000
processor and a very limited VDP (video display processor) that could
handle a limited number of objects on screen at once. IBM PCs with
386s or 486s were far more powerful. |
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Since: Aug 28, 2003 Posts: 47
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"stu" <yakumo9275 DeleteThis @gmail.com> thought that a good way to threaten
somebody was to light a stick of dynamite, then call the guy and
hold the burning fuse up to the phone and say:
> i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the
> c64 predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by
> many years...
The Friday the 13th game I remember on the Commodore 64 was just a
simple top down wander through the woods with randomly placed items
and no narrative. Hardly a precursor to Alone in the Dark.
As far as cinematic horror goes, the first I can recall is Project:
Firestart for the C64. Limited ammo, numerous aliens, having to
explore and exploit the environment, gruesome cutscenes (well, as
gruesome as you can get with 16 colors). Excellent game, but I never
managed to finish it.
--
Ajay Tanwar | ajtanwar DeleteThis @yahoo.com
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people
in large groups." -Despair.com |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 734
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER "AirRaid"
<AirRaid1500.DeleteThis@gmail.com> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
>
>you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
>made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
>Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
> published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
>Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
>States.
Jesus cares.
Jesus also knows that what actually solidified the genre into what it
essentially is today was Dune 2, while the first C&C was what largely
popularized it to the masses. History is written by the winners,
yaddayadda, etc.
--
The Melodramatic MuuMi
"I wuv fishes"
- Bob-The-Vasudan, Commander of the 11th Battlegroup
Official supporter of Vasudan Grand Admiral Bob:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/muumi/Bob.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/muumi/BobPoster.jpg
ICQ: 26741225
E-Mail: muumiSPAM.DeleteThis@MEmbnet.fiHERE!
Remove the nospam thingy for valid E-mail adress. |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 734
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER "stu"
<yakumo9275.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
>i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the c64
>predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by many
>years...
>
>there was also halloween and texas chainsaw massacre for the atari
>2600...... spaltterhouse in the arcades....
>
Is this some shitty attempt at gauging replies, or is Google Groups
the new AOL of the Usenet?
--
The Melodramatic MuuMi
"I wuv fishes"
- Bob-The-Vasudan, Commander of the 11th Battlegroup
Official supporter of Vasudan Grand Admiral Bob:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/muumi/Bob.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/muumi/BobPoster.jpg
ICQ: 26741225
E-Mail: muumiSPAM.TakeThisOut@MEmbnet.fiHERE!
Remove the nospam thingy for valid E-mail adress. |
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Since: Jun 20, 2005 Posts: 540
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"MuuMiMan" <ihatespamandyoumustremovethisinordertoreplymuumi DeleteThis @mbnet.fi> wrote
in message news:247h625eqmt51rfdfm38647umhpjqp7kpl@4ax.com...
>>there was also halloween and texas chainsaw massacre for the atari
>>2600...... spaltterhouse in the arcades....
>>
>
> Is this some shitty attempt at gauging replies, or is Google Groups
> the new AOL of the Usenet?
Unlike AOL, Google doesn't like to be considered Evil.
I have tried to complain about their default reply option (with no quoting)
but have found no way to give feedback
--
LTP
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Since: Jan 22, 2006 Posts: 104
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Um, how can you play an RTS without a mouse? Did this supposed RTS involve
controlling multiple units simulatneously? If it didn't then I don't think
it can even qualify as an RTS.
To tell the truth, there's very little strategy involved in RTS's. It would
seem to me they are more tactical than strategic. At the most you're
controlling maybe a thousand units on maps that are maybe 25 square miles in
size, so the conflicts rarely involve forces larger than battalions.
--
Doug
"AirRaid" <AirRaid1500.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147665409.104690.148660@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> everyone who played / plays RTS games, including Dune 2, Command &
> Conquer series Red Alert, WarCraft series, Starcraft series, Total
> Annihilation, Warzone 2100,
> Jagged Alliance series, Tiberian Sun, Conflict Zone, Red Alert 2,
> Kohan, Age of Empires series, Homeworld, Warlords: Battlecry, LoTR:
> Battle For Middle Earth series,
> Star Wars: Empire at War, and countless others
>
> you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
> made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
> Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
> published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
> Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
> States.
>
> http://www.wolfgames.com/mdherzog.JPG
> http://www.discountgames.org/images/Herzog%20Zwei%20BS.jpg
>
>
> Herzog Zwei was a real-time strategy game with arcade/shmup elements.
> when i say shmup i don't mean first-person shooters (i,e, Doom, Quake)
> that everyone on the PC knows, i'm talking about overhead shmups like
> Xevious, Ikari Warriors, Thunder Force II (also by Technosoft /
> Tecnosoft), Aleste, Raiden, Truxton/Tetsujin, Granada, etc.
>
> Herzog Zwei, although it had these arcade/shooter/shmup elements, was
> very much a strategy game, and realtime.
>
> Herzog Zwei came out LONG before Command & Conquer, and even before
> Dune 2 / II.
> Most PC gamers only acknowledge Dune 2/II as the first RTS game. that
> simply is not true. It was Herzog Zwei that started the whole RTS
> genre. even though Herzog Zwei was not technically the first RTS game
> ever (Herzog by Tecnosoft came out before on the MSX computer in Japan
> in 1988, before the sequel, Herzog Zwei, and a game called 'Cytron
> Masters' was apparently the very first RTS game, back in the early
> 1980s on one of the Atari machines, i know nothing about it) but
> Herzog Zwei is where everything launched from, because it was more
> widely available, modern enough / fast enough to make a massive
> impression on those developers (like Westwood) that would later take
> RTS to the PC with games like Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, and create a
> huge genre out of it.
>
> there are almost NO RTS games that match the frantic pace of Herzog
> Zwei and the almost totally unique aspect in that you ARE actually a
> unit yourself, a transformable mecha / fighter-cargo jet, not just some
> mouse cursor / pointer on the screen.
>
> there was a somewhat recent homebrew / shareware / freeware
> RTS/shoot'em up game made for the PC that was totally inspiried by
> Herzog Zwei. it's called Rapid Aerial Deployment, and while it is not
> nearly as good as Herzog Zwei, the developer did their best to pay
> homage to the first significant RTS game, Herzog Zwei.
> -Rapid Aerial Deployment quite is playable.
>
> looking ahead, I am *so* looking forward to Supreme Commander on the
> PC. it is the closest game I have ever, EVER seen to what I had always
> imagined a 3D polygonal, map zoomable Herzog Zwei-like game could be
> like. while Supreme Commander has little in commen with Herzog Zwei
> and more in commen with Total Annihilation because its the same main
> person in charge of development (AFAIK), and Supreme Commander is said
> to be the spiritual sequel / successor to Total Annihilation.
>
> Supreme Commander has to be, now, my most anticipated game for any
> platform, after watching both the teaser trailer and the gameplay
> demonstration.
>
> trailer - http://www.tinyurl.com/zlr2m
> demonstration - http://www.tinyurl.com/om3tc
>
>
> i know this cross posted to several off-topic groups, but so be it,
> and, my spelling, grammer, etc is not exactly, great. again, so be it.
> i wanted to make this a permanent recognition of Herzog Zwei as the
> first RTS game of any real value, for all time.
>
> now, bring on Supreme Commander!
> |
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Since: Jun 20, 2005 Posts: 540
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"pigdos" <NA.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:8x4ag.76906$H71.63543@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Um, how can you play an RTS without a mouse? Did this supposed RTS involve
> controlling multiple units simulatneously? If it didn't then I don't think
> it can even qualify as an RTS.
>
> To tell the truth, there's very little strategy involved in RTS's. It
> would seem to me they are more tactical than strategic. At the most you're
> controlling maybe a thousand units on maps that are maybe 25 square miles
> in size, so the conflicts rarely involve forces larger than battalions.
Blizzard identified this and forced you to be more strategic in War III.
It is actually kind of annoying. There are so many units I forget what they
are all good for.
--
LTP
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Since: May 15, 2006 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:27 pm
Post subject: Re: PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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AirRaid wrote:
> everyone who played / plays RTS games, including Dune 2, Command &
> Conquer series Red Alert, WarCraft series, Starcraft series, Total
> Annihilation, Warzone 2100,
> Jagged Alliance series, Tiberian Sun, Conflict Zone, Red Alert 2,
> Kohan, Age of Empires series, Homeworld, Warlords: Battlecry, LoTR:
> Battle For Middle Earth series,
> Star Wars: Empire at War, and countless others
>
> you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
> made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
> Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
> published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
> Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
> States.
>
> http://www.wolfgames.com/mdherzog.JPG
> http://www.discountgames.org/images/Herzog%20Zwei%20BS.jpg
>
>
> Herzog Zwei was a real-time strategy game with arcade/shmup elements.
> when i say shmup i don't mean first-person shooters (i,e, Doom, Quake)
> that everyone on the PC knows, i'm talking about overhead shmups like
> Xevious, Ikari Warriors, Thunder Force II (also by Technosoft /
> Tecnosoft), Aleste, Raiden, Truxton/Tetsujin, Granada, etc.
>
> Herzog Zwei, although it had these arcade/shooter/shmup elements, was
> very much a strategy game, and realtime.
>
> Herzog Zwei came out LONG before Command & Conquer, and even before
> Dune 2 / II.
> Most PC gamers only acknowledge Dune 2/II as the first RTS game. that
> simply is not true. It was Herzog Zwei that started the whole RTS
> genre. even though Herzog Zwei was not technically the first RTS game
> ever (Herzog by Tecnosoft came out before on the MSX computer in Japan
> in 1988, before the sequel, Herzog Zwei, and a game called 'Cytron
> Masters' was apparently the very first RTS game, back in the early
> 1980s on one of the Atari machines, i know nothing about it) but
> Herzog Zwei is where everything launched from, because it was more
> widely available, modern enough / fast enough to make a massive
> impression on those developers (like Westwood) that would later take
> RTS to the PC with games like Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, and create a
> huge genre out of it.
>
....
Two good articles on the history and development of RTS's can be found
here:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/700/700747p1.html
(choosing Broderbund's The Ancient Art of War [DOS, 1984] as the
start)
http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/real_time/
(choosing Herzog Zwei as the starting point)
K |
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Since: Oct 05, 2005 Posts: 1306
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the c64
> predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by many
> years...
And "Forbidden Forest" for c64, one of the scariest games ever. |
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Since: May 04, 2006 Posts: 147
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
On 2006-05-15, Vincenzo Beretta <reckall.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on
>> the c64 predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera
>> angles by many years...
>
> And "Forbidden Forest" for c64, one of the scariest games ever.
What we need is convincing evidence that the designers of Dune 2
were even aware of Herzog Zwei. Just because one came before the
other doesn't mean they weren't invented seperately.
--
Neil Cerutti
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php |
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Since: Aug 28, 2003 Posts: 47
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Console gamers, know the roots of survival horror games: Infogrames ALONE IN THE DARK on PC floppy disks [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"stu" <yakumo9275.DeleteThis@gmail.com> thought that a good way to threaten
somebody was to light a stick of dynamite, then call the guy and
hold the burning fuse up to the phone and say:
> i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the
> c64 predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by
> many years...
The Friday the 13th game I remember on the Commodore 64 was just a
simple top down wander through the woods with randomly placed items
and no narrative. Hardly a precursor to Alone in the Dark.
As far as cinematic horror goes, the first I can recall is Project:
Firestart for the C64. Limited ammo, numerous aliens, having to
explore and exploit the environment, gruesome cutscenes (well, as
gruesome as you can get with 16 colors). Excellent game, but I never
managed to finish it.
--
Ajay Tanwar | ajtanwar.DeleteThis@yahoo.com
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people
in large groups." -Despair.com |
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