Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design

On Dec 3, 11:36 am, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

Julian is correct of course. Tiao2 is not diao4 'hang', nor diao4
'drop down'.

> One word can be interpreted by its
> sound to mean many things. Is that not homonmic confusion?

No. My question was whether you can you discuss or imagine other
scenarios that might result in both ma 'horse', ma 'hemp' etc? rather
than selecting or discussing only the 'confusion' possibility.

> I guess email service is not yet as widely available as Europe and
> America.

Please explain?

> How much regional or local variation can account for the
> unbelievable difference? What prediction can be made? Something like
> the "myriad"?

Why unbelieveable?

> And where is the earliest symbol? Prunner's 360/??

Yes. Prunner's early 19th century pack. In conjunction with Pan. At
this point.

> Talking about homonymic confusion, I can give you evidence of that.
> There are bing1, bing2 and bing3 or more. Likewise, there are tong1,
> tong2 and tong3 at least. Have you ever spoken to or heard from some
> one saying those words?

No. Please explain why you are using the word 'confusion'.

> > Bing3 - hence my previous comment about silver 'cakes'. No name that
> > directly reflects money, I agree.
>
> That is because "Cash" was only one interpretation in one locality or
> region.

At which point in time are you referring to?

> I even raised suspicion if it was the Chinese who used that in
> translation first or a westerner's term. Do you have evidence where
> and when the term first appeared?

Cao Xueqin's (1715 - 1763) "Hong Lou Meng". er bing3 "2 cakes" was
mentioned in a description of a card game that was probably "shi hu".

In Li Ruzhen (1763 ~ 1830) "Jing Hua Yuan" in which the three suits
were called suo3, bing3 and wan.

On Dec 3, 11:16 am, mstanwick <mstanw... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 11:36 am, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> Julian is correct of course. Tiao2 is not diao4 'hang', nor diao4
> 'drop down'.
>
Ma Diao is the Late Ming game translated by Lo.
How does Ma Diao relate with Ma Tiao then?

> > One word can be interpreted by its
> > sound to mean many things. Is that not homonmic confusion?
>
> No. My question was whether you can you discuss or imagine other
> scenarios that might result in both ma 'horse', ma 'hemp' etc? rather
> than selecting or discussing only the 'confusion' possibility.
>
I checked a dictionary and counted 22 Chinese words under 'ma'. I am
sure there are more than 2 confusing possibilities.
I read somewhere 'diao' is same as 'niao', but 'niao' is a bird. Have
you read that?

Generally Chinese singular character on its own is difficult to reveal
its meaning; it's understandable better in context.
If you look at Chinese classical literature, you will find phrases and
sentences with at least 4 words. Such abbreviated style caused a lot
of ambiguity, but classical scholars pride themselves on ambiguity
(somebody else also said that before) when they can show their depth
of learning in selected words.

> > I guess email service is not yet as widely available as Europe and
> > America.
>
> Please explain?
>
I mean some place in China may not have internet service. You
mentioned that your contact has recently relocated. I come from a
place where there was no residence telephone service until about 10
years ago.

> > How much regional or local variation can account for the
> > unbelievable difference? What prediction can be made? Something like
> > the "myriad"?
>
> Why unbelieveable?
>
You are talking about suo and tiao? Unbelievable because they are so
different. One is from thread or string and the other is from wood
(radicals).
The same applies to bing and tong. Bing is edible food stuff while
tong is a tube made of bamboo. Yet incredibly, they are both names
for the same symbol.

> > And where is the earliest symbol? Prunner's 360/??
>
> Yes. Prunner's early 19th century pack. In conjunction with Pan. At
> this point.
>
I thought Pan (1556-1622) is much earlier in Ming time. His "cash" His
millions of Cash I don't buy. Prunner's coins were a symbol of
national wealth in a "throne speech" presentation. In the same set,
the Salomi-like sausages look more like bolts of threads as a symbol
for a healthy textile industry. It would take a few men to handle a
roll of that size if that was metal copper Cash. String of Cash that
was not.

> > Talking about homonymic confusion, I can give you evidence of that.
> > There are bing1, bing2 and bing3 or more. Likewise, there are tong1,
> > tong2 and tong3 at least. Have you ever spoken to or heard from some
> > one saying those words?
>
> No. Please explain why you are using the word 'confusion'.
>
You question is confusing me now. I don't know what there is to
explain. When I say bing, you can't be sure if I meant bing1, bing2 or
bing3. Is that confusing?
May be I am not using the correct word, Michael. Ambiguous?

> > > Bing3 - hence my previous comment about silver 'cakes'. No name that
> > > directly reflects money, I agree.
>
> > That is because "Cash" was only one interpretation in one locality or
> > region.
>
> At which point in time are you referring to?
>
I would say whenever, the earliest time whoever coined it.

> > I even raised suspicion if it was the Chinese who used that in
> > translation first or a westerner's term. Do you have evidence where
> > and when the term first appeared?
>
> Cao Xueqin's (1715 - 1763) "Hong Lou Meng". er bing3 "2 cakes" was
> mentioned in a description of a card game that was probably "shi hu".
>
> In Li Ruzhen (1763 ~ 1830) "Jing Hua Yuan" in which the three suits
> were called suo3, bing3 and wan.

Now, I see, Michael. There were these other card games that had those
suits with those names. The same names just passed to mahjong. Just as
I thought. Old familiar names applied to "new" unseen game.

For one thing those same names have origin unknown. They could have
been copied from some other older game like ma diao or ma tiao which
has 1-Cash shown as taiji diagram. Because it had a circle, round like
a coin with a strange design, it was called Cash anyway. Follow suit,
that's the way it went.
To make it interesting, who is to say that mahjong did not have its
own symbols (and lost names based on I-Ching) before the other card
games. We don't know.
+++++++++
Cheers.....al