Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design

On Nov 1, 10:28?am, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> I was not claiming any causal relationship in my evidence. What
> evidence I gave as I said, is circumstantial.

Wrong. It is not circumstantial. There is nothing in what you have
provided, to suggest the relationship you are attempting to establish
between the I Ching and madiao.

Regards

On Nov 1, 9:53 am, mstanwick <mstanw....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 1, 10:28?am, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > I was not claiming any causal relationship in my evidence. What
> > evidence I gave as I said, is circumstantial.
>
> Wrong. It is not circumstantial. There is nothing in what you have
> provided, to suggest the relationship you are attempting to establish
> between the I Ching and madiao.
>
I believe the word for the "relationship" is "correspondence". I saw
it used. That is a feature in mahjong has a similar feature in madiao
or ma daio or mataio.

There might be more truth in the "progenitor" claim than we had
recognized, as the game-play and "insignia" are both "significantly
different". What else is there to justify that "important progenitor"
claim?

> Regards

Cheers....

On Nov 1, 5:27?pm, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> I believe the word for the "relationship" is "correspondence". I saw
> it used. That is a feature in mahjong has a similar feature in madiao
> or ma daio or mataio.

But not in this case. Context is everything. Both maque and madiao are
card games (the context). However, the relevant context is the three
suited cards games (probably derived from four suited ones) that sport
so-called money suits.

So, a feature in mahjong has a similarity to another feature in a
three suited money pack of cards. It is those card packs of three
suits, that are hypothesised to derive from four suited card packs of
the type used in ma diao.

> What else is there to justify that "important progenitor" claim?

I am not making the claim, as you describe it.

Regards

On Nov 1, 2:01 pm, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 1, 5:27?pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > I believe the word for the "relationship" is "correspondence". I saw
> > it used. That is a feature in mahjong has a similar feature in madiao
> > or ma daio or mataio.
>
> But not in this case. Context is everything. Both maque and madiao are
> card games (the context). However, the relevant context is the three
> suited cards games (probably derived from four suited ones) that sport
> so-called money suits.
>
Context is everything. That sounds over-stted, Michael
But let's say context is important, as a rule.
The corresponding features in matiao and mahjong are in context of
Chinese philosophy and culture. Terms such as 'taiji ot tai-chi,
"gian (Creative) trigram trigrams", shown in 3 solid lines,
'kun' (Receptive) trigram", shown in 3 split lines, are used in both
games.

These terms are from the same source, Book of Changes. Mahjong and
mataio have terms of common reference (based on my belief and
interpretation of the mahjong suits) and that they are not cash-based
but I-Ching inspired. That is all I am saying (mahjong is built on yin-
yang LINES).

> So, a feature in mahjong has a similarity to another feature in a
> three suited money pack of cards. It is those card packs of three
> suits, that are hypothesised to derive from four suited card packs of
> the type used in ma diao.
>
I guess I am now saying still, as I said before, disagree with you on
the hypothesized '"money suits".
My simple rebuttal is "Cash is not cash as Mouse is not mouse".

> > [..]
>
> [..]
>
I just visited Andy's web site and the pages on money or cash-based
cards. I thought I noticed a discrepancy. Did you ?

> Regards
++++++++++
Cheers...al

On Nov 3, 1:29?am, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Context is everything. That sounds over-stted, Michael

Why?

> The corresponding features in matiao and mahjong are in context of
> Chinese philosophy and culture.

What does that mean?

> Terms such as 'taiji ot tai-chi,
> "gian (Creative) trigram trigrams", shown in 3 solid lines,
> 'kun' (Receptive) trigram", shown in 3 split lines, are used in both
> games.

Where? State where that ( "...are used in both games" ) is mentioned
in the literature.

> These terms are from the same source, Book of Changes. Mahjong and
> mataio have terms of common reference (based on my belief and
> interpretation of the mahjong suits)...[snip]

Just what do you mean by 'my belief'? What is your 'belief'?

> I just visited Andy's web site and the pages on money or cash-based
> cards. I thought I noticed a discrepancy. Did you ?

I have no idea what your are referring to, so I cannot answer your
question.

Regards

On Nov 3, 4:58 am, Julian Bradfield <j....RemoveThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > On Nov 1, 2:01 pm, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> ...
> > Context is everything. That sounds over-stted, Michael
> > But let's say context is important, as a rule.
> > The corresponding features in matiao and mahjong are in context of
> > Chinese philosophy and culture. Terms such as 'taiji ot tai-chi,
> > "gian (Creative) trigram trigrams", shown in 3 solid lines,
> > 'kun' (Receptive) trigram", shown in 3 split lines, are used in both
> > games.
>
> Just where are I Ching terms used in mah-jong?

+++++++++++
The most important one is ' LINES ' which had been taken as strings
which then twisted to become 'strings of cash' which was based on the
assumption that the round object was cash.

The next one is 'ten-thousand'.

The term ten-thousand is a figure of speech for a large undetermined
number of things in I-Ching. Again, '* wan * has been mistaken as a '
ten-thousand cash ' even though there have been other names for cash,
such as cake, cookie, circle and container.

By the way, you have a good knowledge of Chinese history and mahjong.
Do you know if 'string of cash' was a term first coined and used by a
Westerner?
I ask this because I never heard of 'string of cash' when I played the
game. I and people I know refer to the suit as 'soc' and we didn't
really know what it meant.

Cheers....al

al <alee RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> writes:

> On Nov 1, 2:01 pm, mstanwick <mstanw... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
....
> Context is everything. That sounds over-stted, Michael
> But let's say context is important, as a rule.
> The corresponding features in matiao and mahjong are in context of
> Chinese philosophy and culture. Terms such as 'taiji ot tai-chi,
> "gian (Creative) trigram trigrams", shown in 3 solid lines,
> 'kun' (Receptive) trigram", shown in 3 split lines, are used in both
> games.

Just where are I Ching terms used in mah-jong?

On Nov 3, 3:35?pm, al <a....TakeThisOut@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> By the way, you have a good knowledge of Chinese history and mahjong.
> Do you know if 'string of cash' was a term first coined and used by a
> Westerner?

With reference to Maque, it was reported by, and therefore used by,
Himly. Himly writes 'so' but gives the character (in Pinyin) for
'suo3'. It is the same character that Pan uses for the "String Suit".

Therefore, with reference to Madiao, it was reported by, and therefore
used by Pan.

Regards

al <alee DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> writes:

> On Nov 3, 4:58 am, Julian Bradfield <j... DeleteThis @inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
....
>> Just where are I Ching terms used in mah-jong?
>
> +++++++++++
> The most important one is ' LINES ' which had been taken as strings

The term LINES is hardly specific to I Ching. Is SUO the term
used for lines in Chinese I Ching manuals? If I believe Wikipedia and
my dictionaries, the term is YAO, and even you will not claim that yao
could be mis-heard as suo.

> which then twisted to become 'strings of cash' which was based on the
> assumption that the round object was cash.

This is your assertion, but you provide no evidence for your
assertion.

> The term ten-thousand is a figure of speech for a large undetermined
> number of things in I-Ching. Again, '* wan * has been mistaken as a '
> ten-thousand cash ' even though there have been other names for cash,
> such as cake, cookie, circle and container.

Come off it. WAN is a general Chinese figure of speech for a large
undetermined number, not specific to I Ching. Indeed, in every
language I know, large numerals are so used, and I should be
astonished if you could point out a language which has large numerals
and doesn't use them in this way.

So it appears your basis for the claim that I Ching terms appear in
mah-jong amounts to: one term that doesn't appear in I Ching; and one
term that is simply a general figure of speech that happens to be
employed in I Ching.

On Nov 3, 3:38 pm, Julian Bradfield <j....RemoveThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > On Nov 3, 4:58 am, Julian Bradfield <j....RemoveThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> ...
> >> Just where are I Ching terms used in mah-jong?
>
> > +++++++++++
> > The most important one is ' LINES ' which had been taken as strings
>
> The term LINES is hardly specific to I Ching. Is SUO the term
> used for lines in Chinese I Ching manuals? If I believe Wikipedia and
> my dictionaries, the term is YAO, and even you will not claim that yao
> could be mis-heard as suo.
>
Your question was what I-ching terms used in mahjong. My answer was
one of them (an important one) is 'LINES'. I did not say lines as a
term specific to I-Ching.
I have never seen 'suo' used in I-Ching books. I don't have a Chinese
I-Ching manual. I probably would not understand the old writing
anyway. I claim no scholarly knowledge of higher learning in I-Ching,
but I do feel I have a grasp of the basic concepts.
As to your remark about yao and suo, they do sound and look different.
Before I answer, I want you to tell me the meaning of the two words as
you know them. Can you show their written form in Chinese?

> > which then twisted to become 'strings of cash' which was based on the
> > assumption that the round object was cash.
>
> This is your assertion, but you provide no evidence for your
> assertion.
>
Your comment sounds familiar. What evidence you need?
Think for a moment. Some people call the circles cakes. Have you heard
of a string of cakes? How about a string of containers? Never!

Shouldn't that be an indication of faulty assumption to a logical
thinking mind?
I failed to understand why so many people got "string" along.

> > The term ten-thousand is a figure of speech for a large undetermined
> > number of things in I-Ching. Again, '* wan * has been mistaken as a '
> > ten-thousand cash ' even though there have been other names for cash,
> > such as cake, cookie, circle and container.
>
> Come off it. WAN is a general Chinese figure of speech for a large
> undetermined number, not specific to I Ching. Indeed, in every
> language I know, large numerals are so used, and I should be
> astonished if you could point out a language which has large numerals
> and doesn't use them in this way.
>
I stand by what I said about the ' ten-thousand'. It's about time you
come off your high horse. You read in error what I said . I did not
say 'ten-thousand' applies to I-Ching or used in Book of Changes
exclusively. Read it again.

Of course 'ten-thousand' is a general term. I have given examples
numerous times in my posts. My latest mention is about a house-plant
that lives almost forever in a bottle. It's called ' ten-thousand-year-
green'.

Any one reads and writes Chines knows 'ten-thousand' is a figure of
speech. Examples of its usage include ' t-t-years' = forever; ' t-t-
difficulties' = endless problems; ' t-t-directions' = everywhere. ( t-
t is 'ten-thousand, a figure of speech)

> So it appears your basis for the claim that I Ching terms appear in
> mah-jong amounts to: one term that doesn't appear in I Ching; and one
> term that is simply a general figure of speech that happens to be
> employed in I Ching.

Not so fast. Your hasty interpretation appeared to be based on
incomplete information.

You should check again another meaning of yao (more applicable to I-
Ching).
Re-read what I did say about the general nature of the term ten-
thousand.

Let's see if you have one positive thing to say.

Cheers.....al

On Nov 4, 4:31?pm, al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Think for a moment. Some people call the circles cakes. Have you heard
> of a string of cakes? How about a string of containers? Never!

As far as I am aware, the term 'bing' or 'cake' was applied to the
'cash' or 'coin' suit, not to the 'strings of cash' suit as you state.

This term 'cake' also bothered me as well. If the term were not
associated with money in any way then that would be a significant
problem.

However, there is documentary evidence to show that the term 'bing',
'cake' was associated with money.

According to Peng Xinwei's 'A Monetary History of China', when silver
and gold were used as money, one of the units of gold or silver was
the 'cake'. The term 'cake' (bing) was the name of either gold or
silver money that had been cast into the shape of a 'cake' (slightly
flat and round). Silver was sometimes the more favoured currency and
it was also called 'cake-metal'.

The term 'cake' was therefore used as a unit of, usually, silver
currency or money. Similarly, the unit of the four suits and three
suits of money cards is the cash coin. Since both were used as units
of money and bore similar round shapes, then this provides a reason
for why the term 'cake' could be used as an alternative term for the
units of the money suits, 'cash'.

The more interesting observation is that the character for 'bing'
denotes 'cake' as a form of food, not a unit of metal currency. The
difference is in the radical for food rather than for metal. Himly
argues that the food 'cake' is a vestige of the metal 'cake'.

Regards

On Nov 4, 5:36 pm, Julian Bradfield <j....TakeThisOut@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> al <a....TakeThisOut@ntl.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Your question was what I-ching terms used in mahjong. My answer was
> > one of them (an important one) is 'LINES'. I did not say lines as a
> > term specific to I-Ching.
>
> Oh. I'm sorry. I thought you were claiming that I Ching terms were
> used in mah-jong, and that this demonstrated a connexion between I
> Ching and mah-jong. If you are simply saying that some words used in I
> Ching are also used in mah-jong, this may be true; but it has no
> relevance to the discussion here, if there is no connexion.
>
But, yes, it does indicate a connection and it is relevant to the
discussion.

> But in any case, LINES is an English word, not a term in either I
> Ching or mah-jong - so what did you actually mean?
>
Ines have a special meaning in I-Ching and lines have been
misrepresented in mahjong.

> > As to your remark about yao and suo, they do sound and look different.
> > Before I answer, I want you to tell me the meaning of the two words as
> > you know them. Can you show their written form in Chinese?
>
> I know nothing except what I read in dictionaries, according to which
> suo3 ( ) has a wide range of meanings, the main ones being (from CEDICT)
> /to search/to demand/to ask/to exact/large rope/isolated/

Which one of the definition for your suo3 above, one of the 4 action-
words, the modifier or the noun?
A large rope is somewhat like a big string? But a large rope is not
really a thin string. Why do the Chinese rope up their coins? a large
rope does not fit through a 1/4-inch or a centimeter square hole. You
do appreciate the factual data, I hope. The suo3 is too loose a term
for a tight little hole.

> and yao2 ( ) has only the meaning
> /lines on a trigram/
>
That is only we need. Yao2 means "lines on a trigram".
Trigrams are 3-line configurations from yin-yang in I-Ching.
Yao associates with mahjong as you found in Wlkipedia, you said?
Yao is not strings of coin and you are sure of that? They are trigram
lines by definition in a dictionary you use and trust.
Could suo3 be a misnomer and wrong extension from a symbol mistaken
for cash? No wonder here have been names like axle, bamboo stick and
bushel assigned to it, besides string of cash. They were all wrong.

> >> > which then twisted to become 'strings of cash' which was based on the
> >> > assumption that the round object was cash.
>
> >> This is your assertion, but you provide no evidence for your
> >> assertion.
>
What are you talking about? The evidence is in your dictionary. You
said yao is in mahjong (Wikipedia). You see yao2 are lines on trigrams
(dictionary). You know trigrams belong to I-Ching (I assume). What
more do you need?

> > Your comment sounds familiar. What evidence you need?
>
> Something that does not have a simpler alternative explanation. The
> best evidence you have is that Pan described the layout of the sticks
> on some of the suo tiles by reference to the shape of trigrams. This
> is weak, since the simpler explanation is that he used descriptive
> terms that would be familiar to his readers (who, being educated
> (otherwise they would not read) would know the I Ching).
>
Your rationale is too "educated" for me. Bring down a notch or two so
I can argue with you.
So, are you saying that mahjong was designed for the educated crowd.
Therefore the suits of cards were all made very simple and all in
terms of cash money which everybody could understand?

> Actual good evidence would be a pack of cards in which the suo suit
> was clearly illustrated with trigrams. This wouldn't be conclusive,
> since the cards might have been made by an I Ching obsessive who forced
> everything he knew into the mould of I Ching; but it would be quite
> good evidence, and if there were many such, it would be strong.
>
Agree. A good example is the cash-base defense. When cake and cash
don't mix. There comes "metal-cake".
Nothing seems conclusive for the moment, except the cash-base. Right?

> > Think for a moment. Some people call the circles cakes. Have you heard
> > of a string of cakes? How about a string of containers? Never!
>
> As I quoted from Himly article, the term cake appears to derive from
> cake of silver. If people call the coin suit cakes, that does not
> stop the string suit being a string of coins. If you ask whether I
> have heard of a string of cakes, well, the answer is yes! is, as

I have never heard of it. Your term is more correct as 'cake of
strings'. It's only a little subtle point, but my Chinese tells me
that's the translation. 'String of cakes' is not 'cake of strings'.
Tell me where you heard of 'cake of strings'.

> you presumably know, a type of noodle. Whether anybody ever used the
> term for a string of cash, I have no idea; someone who can read a good
> historical Chinese dictionary might be able to tell us if the term is
> mentioned.
>
I know Chinese mahjong players just call 'soc' (in my dialect). Never
'soc' of anything. I believe string of cash was a foreign
transliteration. Some one can correct me if he has an answer.

> > say 'ten-thousand' applies to I-Ching or used in Book of Changes
> > exclusively. Read it again.
>
> So what was the point?
>
The point is I know well what 'ten-thousand' means and how to use the
term.
[..]
>
> You had two points. One, that wan is a term of I Ching used in
> mah-jong. Two, that wan means an indeterminate quantity, not
> necessarily 10000 cash literally. Point one is true but irrelevant,
> unless you can establish some connexion; point two is true, but only
> relevant if you can provide a reason why we should interpret wan
> generally rather than literally.

You may have a point or two as well. I have good reasons. You will
read about them in time. Enough just for now. Thanks...

I want to make one point clear. It is that yao2 was mistaken as suo3.
In other words, trigrams lines were taken, by mistake due to
ignorance, as large ropes, which later stretched and twisted and
squeezed to become strings. That should be clear to you.

Cheers....al

al <alee DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Your question was what I-ching terms used in mahjong. My answer was
> one of them (an important one) is 'LINES'. I did not say lines as a
> term specific to I-Ching.

Oh. I'm sorry. I thought you were claiming that I Ching terms were
used in mah-jong, and that this demonstrated a connexion between I
Ching and mah-jong. If you are simply saying that some words used in I
Ching are also used in mah-jong, this may be true; but it has no
relevance to the discussion here, if there is no connexion.

But in any case, LINES is an English word, not a term in either I
Ching or mah-jong - so what did you actually mean?

> As to your remark about yao and suo, they do sound and look different.
> Before I answer, I want you to tell me the meaning of the two words as
> you know them. Can you show their written form in Chinese?

I know nothing except what I read in dictionaries, according to which
suo3 (Ë÷) has a wide range of meanings, the main ones being (from CEDICT)
/to search/to demand/to ask/to exact/large rope/isolated/
and yao2 (س) has only the meaning
/lines on a trigram/

>> > which then twisted to become 'strings of cash' which was based on the
>> > assumption that the round object was cash.
>>
>> This is your assertion, but you provide no evidence for your
>> assertion.
>>
> Your comment sounds familiar. What evidence you need?

Something that does not have a simpler alternative explanation. The
best evidence you have is that Pan described the layout of the sticks
on some of the suo tiles by reference to the shape of trigrams. This
is weak, since the simpler explanation is that he used descriptive
terms that would be familiar to his readers (who, being educated
(otherwise they would not read) would know the I Ching).

Actual good evidence would be a pack of cards in which the suo suit
was clearly illustrated with trigrams. This wouldn't be conclusive,
since the cards might have been made by an I Ching obsessive who forced
everything he knew into the mould of I Ching; but it would be quite
good evidence, and if there were many such, it would be strong.

> Think for a moment. Some people call the circles cakes. Have you heard
> of a string of cakes? How about a string of containers? Never!

As I quoted from Himly article, the term cake appears to derive from
cake of silver. If people call the coin suit cakes, that does not
stop the string suit being a string of coins. If you ask whether I
have heard of a string of cakes, well, the answer is yes! Ë÷±ý is, as
you presumably know, a type of noodle. Whether anybody ever used the
term for a string of cash, I have no idea; someone who can read a good
historical Chinese dictionary might be able to tell us if the term is
mentioned.


> say 'ten-thousand' applies to I-Ching or used in Book of Changes
> exclusively. Read it again.

So what was the point?

> You should check again another meaning of yao (more applicable to I-
> Ching).
> Re-read what I did say about the general nature of the term ten-
> thousand.

You had two points. One, that wan is a term of I Ching used in
mah-jong. Two, that wan means an indeterminate quantity, not
necessarily 10000 cash literally. Point one is true but irrelevant,
unless you can establish some connexion; point two is true, but only
relevant if you can provide a reason why we should interpret wan
generally rather than literally.