Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design

On Oct 11, 11:27 am, ithinc <ithi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 5:50 am, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > Personally, my basic knowledge tells me Âéȸ is not Â齫 in pronunciation.
> > Â齫 probably came on the scene after mah-jongg showed up in Western
> > literature. I sense the yielding to pressure as I see a book cover
> > with both names Âéȸ and Â齫 shown plus Sparrow!
>
> In Ningbo dialect, Âéȸ and Â齫 pronounce almost the same.
>
> ithinc
++++++++++++++++++++
Âéȸ and Â齫

If Âéȸ and Â齫 sound almost the same, why bother having two names?
Were the 2 names used to impress the Westerners or to educate the
Chinese?
Furthermore, Âéȸ is sparrow; Â齫 is not even a bird.

So what is the point having Âéȸ and Â齫 on the same book cover?

On Oct 11, 11:58 am, ithinc <ithi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 6 2007, 9:27 am, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 5, 2:39 pm, Julian Bradfield <j....RemoveThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > The standard use of "word" doesn't agree with your use. Linguists
> > > and language teachers, both in China and outside China, agree that
> > > these constructs are words in the modern language. In Chinese terms,
> > > each of them is one ´Ê, made up of two ×Ö. Most of these modern words
> > > have been made by combining two related old words - but it's not always the
> > > case that the modern word has an obvious connection with the old words
> > > that make it up (for example, ÃÉÃÉ meng2meng2 "drizzle" is rather
> > > tenously connected with ÃÉ, though there is a connection I suppose:
> > > drizzle covers one in water!).
>
> > As you said, "each of them is one ´Ê, made up of two ×Ö."
>
> > one ´Ê, this mean a phrase'; two ×Ö, this means two words.
> > A ´Ê is polysyllabic (because a phrase has two or more words), but a ×Ö
> > is mono. That's my understanding.
>
> A ´Ê, could be polysyllabic or mono. For example, "ÎÒ" is a ×Ö, but also
> a ´Ê. A phrase is called ´Ê×é or ¶ÌÓï in Chinese.
>
> ithinc
++++++++++++++++
This was discussed 11 months ago. I don't remember much of it.
It has little to do with my post on the origin of mahjong. I will just
leave the words and phrases for now.

On Oct 13, 1:18 pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Are we talking about the same thing?
> ±ý is not just "made of flour". ±ý to me means baked stuff from the
> oven, not steamed in a pot.
> Ovens were not commonly used in households, because the fuel used were
> not suitable generally.

Ovens are needless to make ±ý in China. Then which Chinese ±ý are you
talking about?

> By ±ý do you mean pancake that is thin for wrapping foodstuff?

No, not pancake.

> When I
> say ±ý, I mean the ±ý sold in bakeries and mostly sweet taste. People
> don't eat that for breakfast or any other meal; they eat it for
> dessert.

What you describe is not called ±ý in Chinese. You might mean the µ°¸â?

ithinc

On Oct 13, 1:31 pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> If Âéȸ and Â齫 sound almost the same, why bother having two names?

Why you're blind to "in Ningbo dialect"?

> Furthermore, Âéȸ is sparrow; Â齫 is not even a bird.

When written down, Â齫 is not a bird; However, when in mouth, Â齫 could
be a bird, and a sparrow.

ithinc

On Oct 13, 3:45 am, ithinc <ithi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 1:31 pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > If Âéȸ and Â齫 sound almost the same, why bother having two names?
>
> Why you're blind to "in Ningbo dialect"?
>
My question to you is this. Why are you so blind to reason?

Âéȸ is the name known before Â齫. Is that not the case?
Why Â齫 was introduced when there was really no need for it. No need
because it only sounds like Âéȸ in Ningbo dialect, but it does not mean
sparrow and sparrow is the correct commonly accepted name.

I would believe it if you were to say Â齫 is from mah-Jiang which is a
copy from mah-jongg; mah-jongg is a case of identity-theft from Âéȸ. In
other words,Â齫 is from Western influence, for the simple fact that the
name itself is totally meaningless.

> > Furthermore, Âéȸ is sparrow; Â齫 is not even a bird.
>
> When written down, Â齫 is not a bird; However, when in mouth, Â齫 could
> be a bird, and a sparrow.

But why bother,just for the people in Ningbo?
>
> ithinc
++++++++
You missed my point, Teacher...

On Oct 13, 2:45 am, ithinc <ithi... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 1:31 pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > If Âéȸ and Â齫 sound almost the same, why bother having two names?

I mean two names on the same cover of a book. Perhaps the author
intended to make sure the people in Ningbo would know the book is
about the game Sparrow?
>
> Why you're blind to "in Ningbo dialect"?

Ningbo people need to hear the name to know the game?
>
Ningbo means little to the rest of China or the mahjong world. The
country like China did not change the name of a game just because it
sounds like Ma Que in Ningbo for the market like Ningbo.

> > Furthermore, Âéȸ is sparrow; Â齫 is not even a bird.
>
Come to think of it. What does Â齫 mean to you literally?

Chinese parents give their children names with meaning. In Chinese
culture, traditional names have meaning.

> When written down, Â齫 is not a bird; However, when in mouth, Â齫 could
> be a bird, and a sparrow.
>
> ithinc

But what does it mean in written form? It is written all over the
pages of mahjong book now. What do the words Â齫 mean?
++++++++++++++
This does not sound like having much to do with origin of mahjong. But
it does show how the game and its history is a mixed up mess of
dialectic variation and superficial transliteration with no regard for
unique features and rules of the game itself.
+++++++++++++++
So many old games thought to have links with mahjong had different
symbols. That is indicative of a basic lack of understanding and
appreciation for the game's origin.

A favorite source for mahjong history is among old novels where slang
expressions and local dialects recorded. That often is considered
documented evidence. That explains why even the name of the game is
still under discussion now.

Mahjong correlates and corresponds to concepts and symbols in I-Ching.
I said.
"Who wants to read that?" That was asked. Another response I remember
is "so what?"
+++++++++++++
Allan Lee