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Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design

 
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al

External


Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:33 pm
Post subject: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design
Archived from groups: rec>games>mahjong (more info?)

Mahjong and Hu-Pai Designs
(Relate to I-Ching & Taoism)

Introduction
Mahjong and other Hu Pais relate to I-Ching. (Yes. I mean I-Ching 易经).

I-Ching is also known as the “Book of Changes” . It is about change
and changeability of everything in the universe. In other words, I-
Ching is OBSERVATION OF CHANGES literally, just as the meaning for
“Book of Changes”.

I learned just recently from reading. I = 易 = change. Ching is 经 as in
经历 like chronicle of observations. The books and references I used are
listed separately.

To show how Mahjong and other Hu Pai game design could be based on
concepts and principles in I-hing, I compare the basic structure of
Mahjong with basic structure of I-Ching. I will also relate symbols in
I-Ching to symbols in Mahjong. Keep in mind that the central idea is
CHANGE and that the process of change is simple and cyclical, just as
explained in I-Ching (a term credited to Confucius).

First let me explain about the I-Ching trigram. It is a symbol of 3
lines which can be arranged in 8 different orders of yin and yang, one
line above another. These symbols were used as metaphors in place of
many words when the language was rudimentary. To illustrate, each
trigram starts from a bi-gram of 2 lines, yin and yang. Let yin = 0
and yang = 1. These 2 lines can make 4 bi-grams, such as O-1, 0-0,
1-0- 1-1. Then the interactions of the 4 bi-grams with yin and yang
beget 8 trigrams: 1-1-1, Heaven; 0-1-1, Lake; 1-0-1, Fire; 0-0-1,
Wind; 0-1-0 Thunder; 1-1-0, , Water; 1-0-0, Mountain; 0-0-0, Earth
(Living I-Ching by Deng Ming-Dao); they are usually shown in line-
symbols. A broken line is yin and a solid line is yang. Trigrams are
building-blocks of I-Ching divination system of hexagram.

Hexagrams are two trigrams in a stack; each has 6 lines Yin and Yang,
in 64 different configurations. Each configuration is a metaphor with
a message for interpretation. This is my basic knowledge of I-Ching.

In tracing the root of a game like Mahjong which has changed names, no
history in written authorship, undergone changes in symbols and cards
added, numerous versions of terms for symbols, even acquired new rules
of play, the core structure and concept of the game is more
significant than its superficial looks. As for any invention, the
uniqueness is not in the appearance but it is in the idea. That is the
essence and meaning of “intellectual property”. Intellectual property
is what I have here.




Reference List:

“The Living I-Ching”, by Deng Ming-Dao, copyright 2006.
“The I-Ching Book”, by Chris Marshall, ISBN 1 84442 634 3; 2004.
“Taoism, A Short Introduction”, by James Miller, copyright 2003.
“Wikipedia” on-line.
“Mah-Jongg from Shanghai to Miami Beach”, ISBN 0-8118-4733-0, 2005.
“The Happy Game of Mah-Jong”, by D.H. Li, ISBN 0-9637852-3-0, 1994.
“The Complete Book of Mah-Jongg”, by A.D. Millington, 1993
“The Paying-Card” articles by Michael Stanwick and Andrew Lo
“Sloperama” FAQ and NG discussions and emails from group members
“Chemistry for Dummies”, by John T. Moore,ISBN 0-7645-5430-1, 2003
“Ralph Waldo Emerson”, CD (CNIB library), 2007
“The History of Mahjong” NG Post by Cofa Tsui, January 2004
“The ZuiHu game” NG Post by ithinc, August 2007


Characteristics of Mahjong (MJ) and other Hu Pai with Parallels in I-
Ching

A pair in MJ is called “eyes”. A pair in I-Ching is yin and yang,
darkness and light.
Phoenix & Dragon are gender symbols in MJ; Yin &Yang are parallels in
I-Ching.
‘Dui’ a pair in Zui-Hu, literally meaning ‘opposed’; Y&Y are opposites
in I-Ching.
Directions, (East-South-West-North) in Mahjong; directions are
trigrams in I-Ching.
‘Wan’ is ‘Ten-thousand’ in MJ; means ‘ten-thousand-thing’ in Tai-Chi
and I-Ching.
‘Old-Thousand’ a card in Hu pai maybe fertility symbol like Mother
Earth in I-Ching.
Scores multiply stepwise in MJ by 2. Trigrams mutate to hexagrams in
steps by 2.
Seasons and Directions are MJ cards; Seasons & Directions are I-Ching
trigrams

Yin and yang, opposites in I-Ching, interact to make 2-line bi-grams &
3-line trigrams.
The goal in MJ is a symbols grouping, 2-3-3-3-3. A pair is ‘2’ , and
sub-groups of ‘3’.
An MJ hand, 13 cards, by D & D, change to a pair + 4 of 3’s,
(2-3-3-3-3 Hu-pattern.)
In I-Ching, ‘2’ = Y & Y, interact with each other; generate 8 groups
of 3’s (trigrams).

‘Kan’ is a MJ 3-card ‘run’, e.g. 1-2-3. ‘Kan’ in I-Ching is trigram-
water that flows.
Changes occur in each MJ hand by D&D; changes in I-Ching from Y&Y
interaction.
Hu, 和 in etymology = ‘eat rice together’; it is ‘unite together’ of
Y&Y in I-Ching.
MJ ‘Dead-wall’ is forbidden zone; I-Ching Tai-Chi, 太极 is primal
birthing place.

The ‘primal birthing place’ is the blank space, an inner circle of
‘Heaven-Eight trigram’.
‘Heaven-8 Trigrams’ express the “cyclical, seasonal and directional
nature of changes”.
MJ circles of King Wen trigrams represent cyclical changes of
everything in the universe.
MJ stick/string symbols are lines of yin-yang; they created all the
‘ten-thousand things’.

Yin and Yang exist in pair. They attract to a union like electron and
proton of atoms.
Yin or Yang can not exist alone; hence a bird, the sparrow is in place
of 1-stick/string.
The simplicity of symbols in MJ is like the simplicity of trigrams in
I-Ching.
E-S-W-N and the 4 Seasons in MJ are part of King Wen’s Trigram-circle.

The process of change affects every MJ-hand via the rules of ‘draw and
discard’.
Cycle of change affects everything in the universe in I-Ching by union
of Y&Y.
‘Draw and Discard’ create changes in MJ; combination and permutation
in I-Ching.
Fair and simple rules for all Hu games; ‘power of 2’ is formula for I-
Ching trigrams.

Mahjong and other Hu Pai have symbols and many metaphors.
I-Ching trigrams and hexagrams are metaphors and more.
MJ symbol called by different names; MJ rules can differ here and
there.
In Taoism wisdom “Name is not forever Name. Way is not the only Way”.

A case in point, Tai-Chi, 太极 by my interpretation, it mean ‘primal
birthing place’. (Every Chinese child by age 5 hears enough swearing
to know what 太 means. No need for etymology to analyze the word. The
dot is a sign of something came out between two legs. A birthing
occurred! Yet the use of V- word is still taboo. Medical description
and dictionary definition for the virgina is “shaded-passage”. I call
it here as ‘birthing place’.

In summary, connections between I-Ching and game design of Mahjong
include:

The circle symbol in Mahjong (Spare Coin) is trigram circle of King
Wen in I-Ching.

The stick/string/rope symbol (Suo Zi) in Mahjong is Yin-Yang line in I-
Ching.

The ‘wan’ symbol in Mahjong is referred to as “ten-thousand-thing’ in
I-Ching.

Seasons and Directions are part of I-Ching and part of Maahjong.

The ‘Pair’ has special significance in both Mahjong and I-Ching.

Parallel exists in I-Ching for the mahjong ‘dead-wall’, Tai-Chi (太极).

‘Kan,’ ‘Dui’ and ‘Qian’ have corresponding usage in Mahjong and I-
Ching.

“Why a Sparrow?” is answered; needed for non-existent half-Yin-Yang
pair.

Change by Yin-yang union in I-Ching; change by ‘peng & chow‘ in MJ.


Conclusion:

Mahjong and other Hu-game designs relates directly to I-Ching, 易经.
A coherent explanation is now possible for the symbols, structure and
rules of the game.

The concentric circles in MJ are King-Wen-Circles in I-Ching. The
Strings or Sticks in MJ are Yin-Yang-Lines in I-Ching. The Sparrow was
a substitute for a half-Yin-Yang-Line which can not exist without an
opposite. (Yin-Yang-Lines exist together at least in pair; that is
what ‘Hu’ (和) means in Hu-Pai. 和= together, Yin AND Yang.

A few key questions have been answered with evidence directly from I-
Ching. There was a design concept in Mahjong, after all.

My thanks and appreciation for the discussions with and assistance
from members of our group; I am glad to have contributed my little
bit. I hope someday somehow somebody will get the Mahjong/Sparrow
origin straight.
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al

External


Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 27, 11:33 pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Mahjong and Hu-Pai Designs
> (Relate to I-Ching & Taoism)
>
> Introduction
> Mahjong and other Hu Pais relate to I-Ching. (Yes. I mean I-Ching 易经).
>
> I-Ching is also known as the “Book of Changes” . It is about change
> and changeability of everything in the universe. In other words, I-
> Ching is OBSERVATION OF CHANGES literally, just as the meaning for
> “Book of Changes”.
>
> I learned just recently from reading. I = 易 = change. Ching is 经 as in
> 经历 like chronicle of observations. The books and references I used are
> listed separately.
>
> To show how Mahjong and other Hu Pai game design could be based on
> concepts and principles in I-hing, I compare the basic structure of
> Mahjong with basic structure of I-Ching. I will also relate symbols in
> I-Ching to symbols in Mahjong. Keep in mind that the central idea is
> CHANGE and that the process of change is simple and cyclical, just as
> explained in I-Ching (a term credited to Confucius).
>
> First let me explain about the I-Ching trigram. It is a symbol of 3
> lines which can be arranged in 8 different orders of yin and yang, one
> line above another. These symbols were used as metaphors in place of
> many words when the language was rudimentary. To illustrate, each
> trigram starts from a bi-gram of 2 lines, yin and yang. Let yin = 0
> and yang = 1. These 2 lines can make 4 bi-grams, such as O-1, 0-0,
> 1-0- 1-1. Then the interactions of the 4 bi-grams with yin and yang
> beget 8 trigrams: 1-1-1, Heaven; 0-1-1, Lake; 1-0-1, Fire; 0-0-1,
> Wind; 0-1-0 Thunder; 1-1-0, , Water; 1-0-0, Mountain; 0-0-0, Earth
> (Living I-Ching by Deng Ming-Dao); they are usually shown in line-
> symbols. A broken line is yin and a solid line is yang. Trigrams are
> building-blocks of I-Ching divination system of hexagram.
>
> Hexagrams are two trigrams in a stack; each has 6 lines Yin and Yang,
> in 64 different configurations. Each configuration is a metaphor with
> a message for interpretation. This is my basic knowledge of I-Ching.
>
> In tracing the root of a game like Mahjong which has changed names, no
> history in written authorship, undergone changes in symbols and cards
> added, numerous versions of terms for symbols, even acquired new rules
> of play, the core structure and concept of the game is more
> significant than its superficial looks. As for any invention, the
> uniqueness is not in the appearance but it is in the idea. That is the
> essence and meaning of “intellectual property”. Intellectual property
> is what I have here.
>
> Reference List:
>
> “The Living I-Ching”, by Deng Ming-Dao, copyright 2006.
> “The I-Ching Book”, by Chris Marshall, ISBN 1 84442 634 3; 2004.
> “Taoism, A Short Introduction”, by James Miller, copyright 2003.
> “Wikipedia” on-line.
> “Mah-Jongg from Shanghai to Miami Beach”, ISBN 0-8118-4733-0, 2005.
> “The Happy Game of Mah-Jong”, by D.H. Li, ISBN 0-9637852-3-0, 1994.
> “The Complete Book of Mah-Jongg”, by A.D. Millington, 1993
> “The Paying-Card” articles by Michael Stanwick and Andrew Lo
> “Sloperama” FAQ and NG discussions and emails from group members
> “Chemistry for Dummies”, by John T. Moore,ISBN 0-7645-5430-1, 2003
> “Ralph Waldo Emerson”, CD (CNIB library), 2007
> “The History of Mahjong” NG Post by Cofa Tsui, January 2004
> “The ZuiHu game” NG Post by ithinc, August 2007
>
> Characteristics of Mahjong (MJ) and other Hu Pai with Parallels in I-
> Ching
>
> A pair in MJ is called “eyes”. A pair in I-Ching is yin and yang,
> darkness and light.
> Phoenix & Dragon are gender symbols in MJ; Yin &Yang are parallels in
> I-Ching.
> ‘Dui’ a pair in Zui-Hu, literally meaning ‘opposed’; Y&Y are opposites
> in I-Ching.
> Directions, (East-South-West-North) in Mahjong; directions are
> trigrams in I-Ching.
> ‘Wan’ is ‘Ten-thousand’ in MJ; means ‘ten-thousand-thing’ in Tai-Chi
> and I-Ching.
> ‘Old-Thousand’ a card in Hu pai maybe fertility symbol like Mother
> Earth in I-Ching.
> Scores multiply stepwise in MJ by 2. Trigrams mutate to hexagrams in
> steps by 2.
> Seasons and Directions are MJ cards; Seasons & Directions are I-Ching
> trigrams
>
> Yin and yang, opposites in I-Ching, interact to make 2-line bi-grams &
> 3-line trigrams.
> The goal in MJ is a symbols grouping, 2-3-3-3-3. A pair is ‘2’ , and
> sub-groups of ‘3’.
> An MJ hand, 13 cards, by D & D, change to a pair + 4 of 3’s,
> (2-3-3-3-3 Hu-pattern.)
> In I-Ching, ‘2’ = Y & Y, interact with each other; generate 8 groups
> of 3’s (trigrams).
>
> ‘Kan’ is a MJ 3-card ‘run’, e.g. 1-2-3. ‘Kan’ in I-Ching is trigram-
> water that flows.
> Changes occur in each MJ hand by D&D; changes in I-Ching from Y&Y
> interaction.
> Hu, 和 in etymology = ‘eat rice together’; it is ‘unite together’ of
> Y&Y in I-Ching.
> MJ ‘Dead-wall’ is forbidden zone; I-Ching Tai-Chi, 太极 is primal
> birthing place.
>
> The ‘primal birthing place’ is the blank space, an inner circle of
> ‘Heaven-Eight trigram’.
> ‘Heaven-8 Trigrams’ express the “cyclical, seasonal and directional
> nature of changes”.
> MJ circles of King Wen trigrams represent cyclical changes of
> everything in the universe.
> MJ stick/string symbols are lines of yin-yang; they created all the
> ‘ten-thousand things’.
>
> Yin and Yang exist in pair. They attract to a union like electron and
> proton of atoms.
> Yin or Yang can not exist alone; hence a bird, the sparrow is in place
> of 1-stick/string.
> The simplicity of symbols in MJ is like the simplicity of trigrams in
> I-Ching.
> E-S-W-N and the 4 Seasons in MJ are part of King Wen’s Trigram-circle.
>
> The process of change affects every MJ-hand via the rules of ‘draw and
> discard’.
> Cycle of change affects everything in the universe in I-Ching by union
> of Y&Y.
> ‘Draw and Discard’ create changes in MJ; combination and permutation
> in I-Ching.
> Fair and simple rules for all Hu games; ‘power of 2’ is formula for I-
> Ching trigrams.
>
> Mahjong and other Hu Pai have symbols and many metaphors.
> I-Ching trigrams and hexagrams are metaphors and more.
> MJ symbol called by different names; MJ rules can differ here and
> there.
> In Taoism wisdom “Name is not forever Name. Way is not the only Way”.
>
> A case in point, Tai-Chi, 太极 by my interpretation, it mean ‘primal
> birthing place’. (Every Chinese child by age 5 hears enough swearing
> to know what 太 means. No need for etymology to analyze the word. The
> dot is a sign of something came out between two legs. A birthing
> occurred! Yet the use of V- word is still taboo. Medical description
> and dictionary definition for the virgina is “shaded-passage”. I call
> it here as ‘birthing place’.
>
> In summary, connections between I-Ching and game design of Mahjong
> include:
>
> The circle symbol in Mahjong (Spare Coin) is trigram circle of King
> Wen in I-Ching.
>
> The stick/string/rope symbol (Suo Zi) in Mahjong is Yin-Yang line in I-
> Ching.
>
> The ‘wan’ symbol in Mahjong is referred to as “ten-thousand-thing’ in
> I-Ching.
>
> Seasons and Directions are part of I-Ching and part of Maahjong.
>
> The ‘Pair’ has special significance in both Mahjong and I-Ching.
>
> Parallel exists in I-Ching for the mahjong ‘dead-wall’, Tai-Chi (太极).
>
> ‘Kan,’ ‘Dui’ and ‘Qian’ have corresponding usage in Mahjong and I-
> Ching.
>
> “Why a Sparrow?” is answered; needed for non-existent half-Yin-Yang
> pair.
>
> Change by Yin-yang union in I-Ching; change by ‘peng & chow‘ in MJ.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Mahjong and other Hu-game designs relates directly to I-Ching, 易经.
> A coherent explanation is now possible for the symbols, structure and
> rules of the game.
>
> The concentric circles in MJ are King-Wen-Circles in I-Ching. The
> Strings or Sticks in MJ are Yin-Yang-Lines in I-Ching. The Sparrow was
> a substitute for a half-Yin-Yang-Line which can not exist without an
> opposite. (Yin-Yang-Lines exist together at least in pair; that is
> what ‘Hu’ (和) means in Hu-Pai. 和= together, Yin AND Yang.
>
> A few key questions have been answered with evidence directly from I-
> Ching. There was a design concept in Mahjong, after all.
>
> My thanks and appreciation for the discussions with and assistance
> from members of our group; I am glad to have contributed my little
> bit. I hope someday somehow somebody will get the Mahjong/Sparrow
> origin straight.
++++++++++++++++

It seems unusual to see not one argument in response since my post
September 27, 2007, 14 days ago, especially when the connection is so
remote from the conventional view or standpoint and the
characteristics are so conceptual rather than concrete or tangible.

I know every one in this group can be vocal and direct at times when a
point is in dispute. Why the sudden silence? I can not believe that
there is no objection or question to my interpretation. After all I am
a neophyte in this game. The post is on the origin of the mahjong
design, a hefty topic indeed. The concept behind the game design, if
understood, can answer many questions that recurred time and again in
the history of this discussion group. Without a core idea for the
game, mahjong pieces do not hang together; symbols do not have uniform
names or meaning; rules do not have reason for being different here
and there. Scholarly discourse mostly focused on a word or a phrase or
pronunciation of this or that appeared so and so. The results led
often to nowhere near the origin of mahjong.

If I had made a mistake and readers recognized it in my post, I would
have heard it by now. My earlier post as a reply to What is Maque /
mahjong had detailed the same content in summary and conclusion. So
there have been two posts proposing that there was a discernable
connection between the design of mahjong and the elements and concepts
in the Book of Changes (I-Ching).

Since I heard not a word from any one anywhere, I am led to speculate
the possibilities of (1) readers are still in shock, like what was
once referred to as Culture Shock Resistance. Or (2) the concept of
creation by Yin and Yang is alien under scholarly scrutiny. Or (3) the
formation of yin-yang lines into configurations such as bi-grams,
trigrams and hexagrams is beyond easy comprehension; or (4) by
ignoring it to give an implication that (a) the post is unworthy of
attention; (b) no sign of culture shock or resistance and (c) being
unaware of this post but not being uninformed on Chinese classic. Or
perhaps (5) avoiding further discussion can keep the status quo. (The
money base preserved and prevails).

It is interesting to note. If educated people nowadays reacted to a
suggestion that the idea and structure of mahjong design relate to I-
Ching either as wacky, unthinkable, confusing or nonsensical, how do
you think people in olden days (whenever that was) responded if they
were told that mahjong was based on I-Ching concepts and not on money/
coins as they had been familiar with in other older games? Naturally
they would ignore anything different and unknown. It is easy to see
what names those folks would have assigned to any new symbols in their
circumstances. They called the new symbols of mahjong with old names
they knew. It was not important what the mahjong symbols really were
then, nor are they now except when it comes to the question of origin
of the game.

By the way, there might have been original mahjong instruction in
writing for scholars who could read. But that was useless to many
people who could not read and most of Chinese people learned only by
oral instruction in olden days. However, if the game was written
before 221 BC, the book-burning of the Chin dynasty (221-206 BC) would
have destroyed its records anyway.
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mstanwick

External


Since: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 69



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:45 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 11, 4:41?am, al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Sep 27, 11:33 pm, al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Mahjong and Hu-Pai Designs
> > (Relate to I-Ching & Taoism)
[snip]
> > To show how Mahjong and other Hu Pai game design could be based on
> > concepts and principles in I-Ching,
[snip]
> > Conclusion:
> > Mahjong and other Hu-game designs relates directly to I-Ching, .
> > A coherent explanation is now possible for the symbols, structure and
> > rules of the game.
[snip]

Your correspondences are interesting as correspondences. Very similar
thinking is found in the Wu Xing. But correspondence does not imply
cause. So now comes the pain... to show that such relationships were
actual, rather than just possible.

> > A few key questions have been answered with evidence directly from I-
> > Ching. There was a design concept in Mahjong, after all.

You have to show with some documentation that, 1stly, there is your
design in Mahjong and 2ndly, that the design came about in the way you
think rather than in any other way and 3rdly, that the design is
directly based on your concepts from the I-Ching. For example, is
there a Dragon and Phoenix relationship in Maque that was
intentionally meant to reflect the yin and yang relationship?
Mentioning some written record where it states that the Dragon and
Phoenix relationship in Maque actually represented the yin and yang
realtionship would be a big plus. The same would need to be done for
the other correspondences.

I hope these suggestions are a help.

Cheers
Michael
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al

External


Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 12, 8:45 am, mstanwick <mstanw....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 4:41?am, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:> On Sep 27, 11:33 pm, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > Mahjong and Hu-Pai Designs
> > > (Relate to I-Ching & Taoism)
> [snip]
> > > To show how Mahjong and other Hu Pai game design could be based on
> > > concepts and principles in I-Ching,
> [snip]
> > > Conclusion:
> > > Mahjong and other Hu-game designs relates directly to I-Ching, .
> > > A coherent explanation is now possible for the symbols, structure and
> > > rules of the game.
>
> [snip]
>
> Your correspondences are interesting as correspondences. Very similar
> thinking is found in the Wu Xing. But correspondence does not imply
> cause. So now comes the pain... to show that such relationships were
> actual, rather than just possible.
>
> > > A few key questions have been answered with evidence directly from I-
> > > Ching. There was a design concept in Mahjong, after all.
>
> You have to show with some documentation that, 1stly, there is your
> design in Mahjong and 2ndly, that the design came about in the way you
> think rather than in any other way and 3rdly, that the design is
> directly based on your concepts from the I-Ching. For example, is
> there a Dragon and Phoenix relationship in Maque that was
> intentionally meant to reflect the yin and yang relationship?
> Mentioning some written record where it states that the Dragon and
> Phoenix relationship in Maque actually represented the yin and yang
> realtionship would be a big plus. The same would need to be done for
> the other correspondences.
>
> I hope these suggestions are a help.
>
> Cheers
> Michael
++++++++++++++
Your suggestions a help? May be, but...

Not much help, Michael.

First I get the message that what is here is nothing new. Wu Xing has
been all about the same thing. I went to Wikipedia and looked up Wu
Xing to see what that is about. But wu xing is quite different from
the focus of my topic.

As I understand it, wu-xing is more for feng-sui, although the 5
elements do appear in the trigrams and hexagrams of I-Ching.

Then basically you told me the task is painful and almost impossible
to show written historical evidence for all the corresponding
relations between I-Ching and mahjong.

But as I said previously, physical evidence has been lost and / or
destroyed. That is why historians could not come up with proofs other
than "probable" this or that. Intellectual evidence is all we can use.

I have shown numerous conceptual connections between the mahjong game
and the Book of Changes. There are symbols in evidence too, except
that they are different from the repeat of traditional "money-
suited" kinds that are taken from a Matiao idea of "Zero Cash"; Half-
Cash, Hundred Cash, Thousand Cash and even Myriad Cash: all derived
from no-cash.

Doesn't it sound like and isn't it propagated like the idea of
immaculate conception?

So, I don't need to show cause-effect relationship for any
corresponding features between mahjong and I-Ching. I am satisfied in
knowing that the existence of correspondence is undeniable. People
tend to believe what they want anyway.

As the saying goes, you can only lead a horse to the water; you can
not make the animal drink.


Cheers....

P.S. Michael, take a look at page 89 of The Playing Card Vol.31 Number
2 (Andrew Lo).
The description for 5-string (suo):" like the shape of the gen
trigram" ( 1 solid line above 2 broken lines) with note #13 which
says: "for an explanation of trigrams see Cary Barnes, trans. Hellmut
Wilhelm, The I-Ching or Book of Changes; 1984.

Similarly, 3-Cash is "like the shape of qian trigram" (3 solid lines
on top of each other) and 6-Cash is "like the shape of kan trigram" (3
broken lines on top of each other).

One more item for your interest: look up the English word "LINE" and
see some Chinese equivalents. "suo" is one of the nouns in my
dictionary. What if "lines" were taken for "strings" in error? And why
Note-13 refers to trigrams among all things? Just a coincidence?
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mstanwick

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Since: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 69



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 13, 9:17�pm, al <a....TakeThisOut@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 12, 8:45 am, mstanwick <mstanw....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
> > Your correspondences are interesting as correspondences. Very similar
> > thinking is found in the Wu Xing. But correspondence does not imply
> > cause. So now comes the pain... to show that such relationships were
> > actual, rather than just possible.
>
> > > > A few key questions have been answered with evidence directly from I-
> > > > Ching. There was a design concept in Mahjong, after all.
>
> > You have to show with some documentation that, 1stly, there is your
> > design in Mahjong and 2ndly, that the design came about in the way you
> > think rather than in any other way and 3rdly, that the design is
> > directly based on your concepts from the I-Ching. For example, is
> > there a Dragon and Phoenix relationship in Maque that was
> > intentionally meant to reflect the yin and yang relationship?
> > Mentioning some written record where it states that the Dragon and
> > Phoenix relationship in Maque actually represented the yin and yang
> > realtionship would be a big plus. The same would need to be done for
> > the other correspondences.
>
> > I hope these suggestions are a help.

> Your suggestions a help? May be, but...
>
> Not much help, Michael.
>
> First I get the message that what is here is nothing new. Wu Xing has
> been all about the same thing. I went to Wikipedia and looked up Wu
> Xing to see what that is about. But wu xing is quite different from
> the focus of my topic.

Of course it is....but I said the thinking/reasoning is similar, not
the concepts or ideas.

> As I understand it, wu-xing is more for feng-sui, although the 5
> elements do appear in the trigrams and hexagrams of I-Ching.

May I suggest 'Disputers of the Tao' by A. C. Graham as a good intro
to the development of the wu-xing concept by reading. The Yin and Yang
concepts figure prominently as does the Yi Ching.

> Then basically you told me the task is painful and almost impossible
> to show written historical evidence for all the corresponding
> relations between I-Ching and mahjong.

Ok. How about any directly relevant evidence of one or two relations -
and I gave one example - would be enough to get me to sit up and bring
your ideas to the front of my considerations.

> But as I said previously, physical evidence has been lost and / or
> destroyed. That is why historians could not come up with proofs other
> than "probable" this or that. Intellectual evidence is all we can use.

If you don't mind me saying so - that is a cop-out. You don't know if
there is no evidence out there. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't.
It is for you to go and search. Just because you are aware that others
haven't come up with anything does not mean that you will not. I know
this for a fact from my own experience. Searching and reading and
exploring are the tedious and tiring aspects - that is why I said it
is painful. But it is also enjoyable - especially when you find
something that is directly related to some feature you are looking
into.

> I have shown numerous conceptual connections between the mahjong game
> and the Book of Changes. There are symbols in evidence too, except
> that they are different from the repeat of traditional "money-
> suited" kinds that are taken from a Matiao idea of "Zero Cash"; Half-
> Cash, Hundred Cash, Thousand Cash and even Myriad Cash: all derived
> from no-cash.
> Doesn't it sound like and isn't it propagated like the idea of
> immaculate conception?
> So, I don't need to show cause-effect relationship for any
> corresponding features between mahjong and I-Ching.

Yes you do. At least some evidence of an actual connection between the
two features you are claiming are connected in some way. Start looking
for any of those correspondences and you might strike it lucky with
just one. Start looking for connections between the I-Chinf concepts
and playing cards - but connections that actually support the
relationship - not just a mention for some other purpose (see below).
I would be very interested as I was interrsted in a wu xing connection
some time ago.

> I am satisfied in
> knowing that the existence of correspondence is undeniable. People
> tend to believe what they want anyway.

But you did not post your ideas on this list to convince yourself.
Right at the beginning I said that if you post your ideas on this list
then you will have to expect some critical scrutiny etc. You need to
convince others.

I do not tend to believe what I want. I have told you the criteria I
need in order to further consider someone's idea. I demand the same of
myself.

> As the saying goes, you can only lead a horse to the water; you can
> not make the animal drink.

No, you can't. You have to convince it first. ^_^

> P.S. Michael, take a look at page 89 of The Playing Card Vol.31 Number
> 2 (Andrew Lo).
> The description for 5-string (suo):" like the shape of the gen
> trigram" ( 1 solid line above 2 broken lines) with note #13 which
> says: "for an explanation of trigrams see Cary Barnes, trans. Hellmut
> Wilhelm, The I-Ching or Book of Changes; 1984.
> Similarly, 3-Cash is "like the shape of qian trigram" (3 solid lines
> on top of each other) and 6-Cash is "like the shape of kan trigram" (3
> broken lines on top of each other).

Yes, thanks. I am well acquainted with this description. As you can
see, the writer Pan Zhiheng is attempting to describe the relative
positions of the coins to each other, on the cash suit cards, by show
their positions are like the **shapes** of other objects. That is why
the other descriptions make reference to other shaped objects, such as
a ring and a constellation and a drum and a bent foot and a hairpin
etc etc.
>
> One more item for your interest: look up the English word "LINE" and
> see some Chinese equivalents. "suo" is one of the nouns in my
> dictionary. What if "lines" were taken for "strings" in error? And why
> Note-13 refers to trigrams among all things? Just a coincidence?

Because it is the relative positions of the trigram lines that reflect
the relative positions of the coins to each other. By the way, I have
seen a Ming Dynasty fifty cash note. The central picture is of 2 rows
of round coins in the top left, two rows top right, two rows bottom
left and two rows bottom right. In the middle are two more rows. The
positions of each pair of rows is exactly the position of each coin on
a five of cash tile in maque. Now there's a coincidence. ^_^

Cheers
Michael
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al

External


Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:35 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 13, 6:10 pm, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 9:17?pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 12, 8:45 am, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Your correspondences are interesting as correspondences. Very similar
> > > thinking is found in the Wu Xing. But correspondence does not imply
> > > cause. So now comes the pain... to show that such relationships were
> > > actual, rather than just possible.
>
> > > > > A few key questions have been answered with evidence directly from I-
> > > > > Ching. There was a design concept in Mahjong, after all.
>
> > > You have to show with some documentation that, 1stly, there is your
> > > design in Mahjong and 2ndly, that the design came about in the way you
> > > think rather than in any other way and 3rdly, that the design is
> > > directly based on your concepts from the I-Ching. For example, is
> > > there a Dragon and Phoenix relationship in Maque that was
> > > intentionally meant to reflect the yin and yang relationship?

There is or had been a Dragon and there was also a Phoenix symbol on
the mahjong tiles. You might even have them in one of your sets.
But it seems unfair to ask if the relationship for the pair in maque
was "intentional". Who can determine that other than the dead author?
And I suppose nothing short of his own words would do.

> > > Mentioning some written record where it states that the Dragon and
> > > Phoenix relationship in Maque actually represented the yin and yang
> > > realtionship would be a big plus. The same would need to be done for
> > > the other correspondences.

I refer you to the uniqueness of pattern 2-3-3-3-3. The 2 is a bi-gram
and the 3's are trigrams. Trigrams come from the bi-gram. Give a
better interpretation if you could. Wth a minimum knowledge of I-
Ching, even I can see the relationship.
>
> > > I hope these suggestions are a help.
> > Your suggestions a help? May be, but...
>
> > Not much help, Michael.
>
> > First I get the message that what is here is nothing new. Wu Xing has
> > been all about the same thing. I went to Wikipedia and looked up Wu
> > Xing to see what that is about. But wu xing is quite different from
> > the focus of my topic.
>
> Of course it is....but I said the thinking/reasoning is similar, not
> the concepts or ideas.
>
> > As I understand it, wu-xing is more for feng-sui, although the 5
> > elements do appear in the trigrams and hexagrams of I-Ching.
>
> May I suggest 'Disputers of the Tao' by A. C. Graham as a good intro
> to the development of the wu-xing concept by reading. The Yin and Yang
> concepts figure prominently as does the Yi Ching.
>
I will get to read tht someday. I have a dispute on the definition
itself. When see translations like "supreme ultimate" for Tai Chi, it
turns me off.

> > Then basically you told me the task is painful and almost impossible
> > to show written historical evidence for all the corresponding
> > relations between I-Ching and mahjong.
>
> Ok. How about any directly relevant evidence of one or two relations -
> and I gave one example - would be enough to get me to sit up and bring
> your ideas to the front of my considerations.
>
> > But as I said previously, physical evidence has been lost and / or
> > destroyed. That is why historians could not come up with proofs other
> > than "probable" this or that. Intellectual evidence is all we can use.
>
> If you don't mind me saying so - that is a cop-out. You don't know if
> there is no evidence out there. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't.
> It is for you to go and search. Just because you are aware that others
> haven't come up with anything does not mean that you will not. I know
> this for a fact from my own experience. Searching and reading and
> exploring are the tedious and tiring aspects - that is why I said it
> is painful. But it is also enjoyable - especially when you find
> something that is directly related to some feature you are looking
> into.
>
> > I have shown numerous conceptual connections between the mahjong game
> > and the Book of Changes. There are symbols in evidence too, except
> > that they are different from the repeat of traditional ?"money-
> > suited" ?kinds that are taken from a Matiao idea of "Zero Cash"; Half-
> > Cash, Hundred Cash, Thousand Cash and even Myriad Cash: all derived
> > from no-cash.
> > Doesn't it sound like and isn't it propagated like the idea of
> > immaculate conception?
> > So, I don't need to show cause-effect relationship for any
> > corresponding features between mahjong and I-Ching.
>
> Yes you do. At least some evidence of an actual connection between the
> two features you are claiming are connected in some way. Start looking
> for any of those correspondences and you might strike it lucky with
> just one. Start looking for connections between the I-Chinf concepts
> and playing cards - but connections that actually support the
> relationship - not just a mention for some other purpose (see below).
> I would be very interested as I was interrsted in a wu xing connection
> some time ago.
>
> > I am satisfied in
> > knowing that the existence of correspondence is undeniable. People
> > tend to believe what they want anyway.
>
> But you did not post your ideas on this list to convince yourself.
> Right at the beginning I said that if you post your ideas on this list
> then you will have to expect some critical scrutiny etc. You need to
> convince others.
>
> I do not tend to believe what I want. I have told you the criteria I
> need in order to further consider someone's idea. I demand the same of
> myself.
>
> > As the saying goes, you can only lead a horse to the water; you can
> > not make the animal drink.
>
> No, you can't. You have to convince it first. ^_^
>
> > P.S. Michael, take a look at page 89 of The Playing Card Vol.31 Number
> > 2 (Andrew Lo).
> > The description for 5-string (suo):" like the shape of the gen
> > trigram" ( 1 solid line above 2 broken lines) with note #13 which
> > says: "for an explanation of trigrams see Cary Barnes, trans. Hellmut
> > Wilhelm, The I-Ching or Book of Changes; 1984.
> > Similarly, 3-Cash is "like the shape of qian trigram" (3 solid lines
> > on top of each other) and 6-Cash is "like the shape of kan trigram" (3
> > broken lines on top of each other).
>
I made an error here. It is not "kan", it should be "kun" (Earth).

> Yes, thanks. I am well acquainted with this description. As you can
> see, the writer Pan Zhiheng is attempting to describe the relative
> positions of the coins to each other, on the cash suit cards, by show
> their positions are like the **shapes** of other objects. That is why
> the other descriptions make reference to other shaped objects, such as
> a ring and a constellation and a drum and a bent foot and a hairpin
> etc etc.
>
I think there is more to that, Michael. We can explore later.
>
>
> > One more item for your interest: look up the English word "LINE" and
> > see some Chinese equivalents. "suo" is one of the nouns in my
> > dictionary. What if "lines" were taken for "strings" in error? And why
> > Note-13 refers to trigrams among all things? Just a coincidence?
>
> Because it is the relative positions of the trigram lines that reflect
> the relative positions of the coins to each other. By the way, I have
> seen a Ming Dynasty fifty cash note. The central picture is of 2 rows
> of round coins in the top left, two rows top right, two rows bottom
> left and two rows bottom right. In the middle are two more rows. The
> positions of each pair of rows is exactly the position of each coin on
> a five of cash tile in maque. Now there's a coincidence. ^_^
>
Yes and no, Michael. What is your thinking on that? Was it a
coincidence or was it a result by design based on some idea?
I will follow with my assessment after yours.

> Cheers
> Michael
++++++++++++
Cheers
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mstanwick

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Since: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 69



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 14, 4:35?pm, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:10 pm, mstanwick <mstanw....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > You have to show with some documentation that, 1stly, there is your
> > > > design in Mahjong and 2ndly, that the design came about in the way you
> > > > think rather than in any other way and 3rdly, that the design is
> > > > directly based on your concepts from the I-Ching. For example, is
> > > > there a Dragon and Phoenix relationship in Maque that was
> > > > intentionally meant to reflect the yin and yang relationship?
>
> There is or had been a Dragon and there was also a Phoenix symbol on
> the mahjong tiles. You might even have them in one of your sets.
> But it seems unfair to ask if the relationship for the pair in maque
> was "intentional". Who can determine that other than the dead author?
> And I suppose nothing short of his own words would do.

Sorry, that is not what I meant. I would be willing to accept some
early documented references that were about maque and that mentioned
any of the corresponding meanings, between maque and the I-Ching, that
you are putting forward for consideration.

> > > > Mentioning some written record where it states that the Dragon and
> > > > Phoenix relationship in Maque actually represented the yin and yang
> > > > realtionship would be a big plus. The same would need to be done for
> > > > the other correspondences.
>
> I refer you to the uniqueness of pattern 2-3-3-3-3. The 2 is a bi-gram
> and the 3's are trigrams. Trigrams come from the bi-gram. Give a
> better interpretation if you could. With a minimum knowledge of I-
> Ching, even I can see the relationship.

Sorry, no, that is not what I meant by what I was looking for. It is
the same as what I just said above.

> > Yes, thanks. I am well acquainted with this description. As you can
> > see, the writer Pan Zhiheng is attempting to describe the relative
> > positions of the coins to each other, on the cash suit cards, by show
> > their positions are like the **shapes** of other objects. That is why
> > the other descriptions make reference to other shaped objects, such as
> > a ring and a constellation and a drum and a bent foot and a hairpin
> > etc etc.
>
> I think there is more to that, Michael. We can explore later.

You mean Pan said more than that, or meant more than that?

> > Because it is the relative positions of the trigram lines that reflect
> > the relative positions of the coins to each other. By the way, I have
> > seen a Ming Dynasty fifty cash note. The central picture is of 2 rows
> > of round coins in the top left, two rows top right, two rows bottom
> > left and two rows bottom right. In the middle are two more rows. The
> > positions of each pair of rows is exactly the position of each coin on
> > a five of cash tile in maque. Now there's a coincidence. ^_^
>
> Yes and no, Michael. What is your thinking on that? Was it a
> coincidence or was it a result by design based on some idea?
> I will follow with my assessment after yours.

I was being ironic. I have an observation as described above. But as
to its relevance - I am not sure. Similarly with other pieces of data
I have.

Cheers
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al

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 14, 2:56 pm, mstanwick <mstanw... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 4:35?pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 13, 6:10 pm, mstanwick <mstanw... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > You have to show with some documentation that, 1stly, there is your
> > > > > design in Mahjong and 2ndly, that the design came about in the way you
> > > > > think rather than in any other way and 3rdly, that the design is
> > > > > directly based on your concepts from the I-Ching. For example, is
> > > > > there a Dragon and Phoenix relationship in Maque that was
> > > > > intentionally meant to reflect the yin and yang relationship?
>
> > There is or had been a Dragon and there was also a Phoenix symbol on
> > the mahjong tiles. You might even have them in one of your sets.
> > But it seems unfair to ask if the relationship for the pair in maque
> > was "intentional". Who can determine that other than the dead author?
> > And I suppose nothing short of his own words would do.
>
> Sorry, that is not what I meant. I would be willing to accept some
> early documented references that were about maque and that mentioned
> any of the corresponding meanings, between maque and the I-Ching, that
> you are putting forward for consideration.
>
> > > > > Mentioning some written record where it states that the Dragon and
> > > > > Phoenix relationship in Maque actually represented the yin and yang
> > > > > realtionship would be a big plus. The same would need to be done for
> > > > > the other correspondences.
>
> > I refer you to the uniqueness of pattern 2-3-3-3-3. The 2 is a bi-gram
> > and the 3's are trigrams. Trigrams come from the bi-gram. Give a
> > better interpretation if you could. With a minimum knowledge of I-
> > Ching, even I can see the relationship.
>
> Sorry, no, that is not what I meant by what I was looking for. It is
> the same as what I just said above.
>
> > > Yes, thanks. I am well acquainted with this description. As you can
> > > see, the writer Pan Zhiheng is attempting to describe the relative
> > > positions of the coins to each other, on the cash suit cards, by show
> > > their positions are like the **shapes** of other objects. That is why
> > > the other descriptions make reference to other shaped objects, such as
> > > a ring and a constellation and a drum and a bent foot and a hairpin
> > > etc etc.
>
> > I think there is more to that, Michael. We can explore later.
>
> You mean Pan said more than that, or meant more than that?

Actually I meant both. Pan had said more than what you listed above
and I believe what he said meant more than the translation. I will
explain later.
>
> > > Because it is the relative positions of the trigram lines that reflect
> > > the relative positions of the coins to each other. By the way, I have
> > > seen a Ming Dynasty fifty cash note. The central picture is of 2 rows
> > > of round coins in the top left, two rows top right, two rows bottom
> > > left and two rows bottom right. In the middle are two more rows. The
> > > positions of each pair of rows is exactly the position of each coin on
> > > a five of cash tile in maque. Now there's a coincidence. ^_^
>
> > Yes and no, Michael. What is your thinking on that? Was it a
> > coincidence or was it a result by design based on some idea?
> > I will follow with my assessment after yours.
>
> I was being ironic. I have an observation as described above. But as
> to its relevance - I am not sure. Similarly with other pieces of data
> I have.
>
Your observation was interesting. Give it a little more time and let
me know what interpretation of relevance is there that comes to mind.
I like to compare notes.

> Cheers
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mstanwick

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Since: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 69



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 15, 4:05?am, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 2:56 pm, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:

> Your observation was interesting. Give it a little more time and let
> me know what interpretation of relevance is there that comes to mind.
> I like to compare notes.

It is part of another hypothesis I am working on. it may appear in due
course.

Cheers
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al

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:48 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 15, 5:50 am, mstanwick <mstanw... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 4:05?am, al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 14, 2:56 pm, mstanwick <mstanw... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> > Your observation was interesting. Give it a little more time and let
> > me know what interpretation of relevance is there that comes to mind.
> > I like to compare notes.
>
> It is part of another hypothesis I am working on. it may appear in due
> course.
>
> Cheers

++++++++++
In that case, I will just say what I came to my mind after I read your
observation about the identical positioning of the f items in both
places.

I thought balance might be the objective (for physical equilibrium of
forces and aesthetics appeal). The objects could have been buckets of
water, the balanced arrangement would have been that way as well.

Cheers...
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pasek

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 38



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:09 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 27, 11:33 pm, al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> Mahjong and other Hu Pais relate to I-Ching. (Yes. I mean I-Ching 易经).

Allan,

To my mind you have not really given enough evidence for me to even
feel that a Yi Jing and MJ hypothesis is worth examining. I think that
you are good at seeing the potential for associations between
differing items, but your follow up research and presentation
abilities could use improvement. I don’t mean to sound critical or
discouraging, and hope that you take the following as an attempt to be
helpful. I think your abilities (seeing the potential for correlations
between differing things, your cultural knowledge, your willingness to
devote time into thinking about and researching your ideas, etc.)
could be valuable and would actually hope that you could be encouraged
to continue your interest in researching MJ history.

With that in mind, here is an example of a correlation between the Yi
Jing and a game (in this case the game is Tantrix):
http://www.magictortoise.com/Tantrix_YiJing.pdf

This is an instance where the author not only had the insight to see
that there may have been a possible correlation between the Yi Jing
and the game (the stage that I feel you may currently be in), but he
exhaustively examined the possibility and was able to then make an
excellent presentation of his findings (knowledge + research). Note
also that he considers possible problems with his correlations and
gives analysis that helps explain factors that may not seem right
(e.g., that earth can correlate with blue rather than the more
familiar brown, red clay, yellow earth, etc., and that sky is
correlated with red rather than the perhaps more expected blue; that
there are 64 hexagrams but only 56 tiles in the current game of
Tantrix, etc.) and this actually strengthens his presentation.

I’m not expecting you to come close to the level of his analysis, but
you can see why I may not be too interested in the current level of
your analysis. It should also be noted that while the level of
correlation between the Yi Jing and Tantrix is quite strong, that game
is modern, and since the inventor is still alive, we know that the
original intent of the game was not to illustrate the principles found
in the Yi Jing! It is always difficult to present a convincing
circumstantial case (and I am having the same concern with my research
so far with the Taiping idea) but please also look at any
inconsistencies that you can think of rather than waiting for others
to point them out. As researchers we should be looking at both the
positives and negatives with our ideas.

Dan
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al

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 17, 11:09 am, pa....RemoveThis@email.unc.edu wrote:
> On Sep 27, 11:33 pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Mahjong and other Hu Pais relate to I-Ching. (Yes. I mean I-Ching 易经).
>
> Allan,
>
> To my mind you have not really given enough evidence for me to even
> feel that a Yi Jing and MJ hypothesis is worth examining. I think that
> you are good at seeing the potential for associations between
> differing items, but your follow up research and presentation
> abilities could use improvement.
>
Thank you, Dan. I appreciate your post.

> With that in mind, here is an example of a correlation between the Yi
> Jing and a game (in this case the game is Tantrix):http://www.magictortoise.com/Tantrix_YiJing.pdf
>
I will study the example later.

(and I am having the same concern with my research
> so far with the Taiping idea) but please also look at any
> inconsistencies that you can think of rather than waiting for others
> to point them out. As researchers we should be looking at both the
> positives and negatives with our ideas.
>
Good point. And how is your project going?

Just the other day I thought of something about your idea of Taoping-
orgin for mahjong. Because I was looking at the Hu pais (MO HU and
Peng Hu) and Cofa's posts of years back and I get to appreciate that
the Hu games are for "togetherness" and harmony (as the meaning of the
word, HU). I asked myself the question: does that not seem to
contradict with Dan's thesis that mahjong was created based on war or
in time of war (with forts and walls for defense)?

I thought I should share this with you. You probably have looked at
that already.

> Dan

Cheers,
Allan
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al

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 18, 10:53 am, pa....TakeThisOut@email.unc.edu wrote:
> On Oct 17, 5:35 pm, al <a....TakeThisOut@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
> > And how is your project going?
>
> > [..]
>
> > [..]
>
> Allan,
>
> My Taiping project suffers from my limitations as a researcher! As my
> ability to read Chinese is severely limited, I am not even able to
> examine the numerous Chinese texts on the Taiping that are available
> in local libraries, and I am also unable to examine material located
> in China that are not available in the USA.
> [..]
>
> As to the idea that MJ evolved from games that implied that harmony
> was a component, I don't see any conflict with the Taiping hypothesis.
> They were trying to bring a harmonious and peaceful kingdom to earth
> that reflected heaven. While they fought the Qing, this does not mean
> that their ideals were violent.
>
Hello, Dan,

I have not read your post on the Taiping hypothesis. Where can find
it? I should know more of what you have there first.
However. mahjong is a trick-forming game, unlike other trick-taking
games. The nature of trick-forming is non-aggressive whereas trick-
taking is by contrast, more aggressive. Military people as a rule
tend to be aggressive type. That is a human nature consideration, as I
see it.

Games may be more for old established history which people have been
all very much familiar with the facts, rather than for history-in-the-
making. Is your Taiping hypothesis about old historical facts or
history-in-the-making?

> Dan
++++++++++
Cheers.....
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al

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 209



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 22, 12:29 pm, pa....RemoveThis@email.unc.edu wrote:
> On Oct 19, 4:12 pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > > I have been unable to find much information on Taiping leisure
> > > activities
[..]
>
> > I am not surprised about that.
[..]
> > [snip]
>
> Allan,
>
> The social situation for the Taiping was quite different than their
> contemporaries. Rather than living as generational family units, grown
> men (even for married couples) lived separate from women and children.
[..]
>
> I have been continuing to research and refine the analysis since
> making these posts, but the early information concerning the Taiping
> hypothesis is in this thread (Paper Pai vs. MJ Tiles, Why?):http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.mahjong/browse_thread/thread...
>

I recall reading some of the posts back in April. I was too busy at
that time. Plus I am not familiar with Chinese history.

>
> Dan
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Posts: 209



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:59 am
Post subject: Re: Origin of Mahjong (MJ) / other Hu Pai Design [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 13, 6:10 pm, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 9:17?pm, al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 12, 8:45 am, mstanwick <mstanw....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Your correspondences are interesting as correspondences. Very similar
> > > thinking is found in the Wu Xing. [..]
>
Michael, your protective system is interesting. By saying that my
thinking is "very similar [to that] found in Wu Xing essential gain
you much advantage (perhaps that is a tactic in debates just to win).
(1) You indicated your scope and range of knowledge, (2) you had known
the typical thinking I just learned now.

I noticed this in our previous discussions. So now I see it is "tool"
of yours to gain an upper hand from the start.

> > > > > [..]
> > > [..] [..]
>
> > > I hope these suggestions are a help.
> > [..]
>
> > First I get the message that what is here is nothing new. Wu Xing has
> > been all about the same thing. I went to Wikipedia and looked up Wu
> > Xing to see what that is about. But wu xing is quite different from
> > the focus of my topic.
>
> Of course it is....but I said the thinking/reasoning is similar, not
> the concepts or ideas.
>
"Thinking" as a process, it is the same (logical or illogical). You
gave the impression that the difference was in the concept.

> > As I understand it, wu-xing is more for feng-sui, although the 5
> > elements do appear in the trigrams and hexagrams of I-Ching.
>
> May I suggest 'Disputers of the Tao' by A. C. Graham as a good intro
> to the development of the wu-xing concept by reading. The Yin and Yang
> concepts figure prominently as does the Yi Ching.
>
Here is an defense tactic. You knew just about any topic, because you
have read just about any book out there.

What I can not understand is this. "IKnowing so much, why do you
accept the words of some unofficial historian in the Ming era and then
took their word for word translation such as HalfCash (even as [ a big
mouth] guest with missing teeth?

> > [..]
>
> Ok. How about any directly relevant evidence of one or two relations -
> and I gave one example - would be enough to get me to sit up and bring
> your ideas to the front of my considerations.
>
You have heard them all and you have seen them, Michael. Nothing is
going to do that. It is easier to ignore whatever comes your way and
automatically grade it as such.

> > But as I said previously, physical evidence has been lost and / or
> > destroyed. That is why historians could not come up with proofs other
> > than "probable" this or that. Intellectual evidence is all we can use.
>
> If you don't mind me saying so - that is a cop-out. You don't know if
> there is no evidence out there. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't.
> It is for you to go and search. Just because you are aware that others
> haven't come up with anything does not mean that you will not. [..]
>
Well, Michael, if you have not come up anything after search (the
world over?), what chance would I have to locate any "physical"
evidence?

But talking about "cop-out", Michael, I think your leaving the scene
of discussion on the question "CASH or NOT-CASH" is close to it.

Non-participation is another defense mechanism, perhaps.

> >[..] [..]
>
> [..] At least some evidence of an actual connection between the
> two features you are claiming are connected in some way. Start looking
> for any of those correspondences and you might strike it lucky with
> just one. Start looking for connections between the I-Chinf concepts
> and playing cards - but connections that actually support the
> relationship - not just a mention for some other purpose ..]
>
Here is something.
the pattern of mahjong and uniquely mahjong is 2-3-3-3-3 which mens a
pair and melds of 3's.
The pairs are called "eyes"
The taiji symbol has a pair of round dots like eyes of yin-yang.
The I-Ching happens to have trigrams of 3 lines that result from the
interaction of 2 lines, yin and yang.

Can your CASH concept explain anything relates to the game? Has
anybody else pointed out the correspondences between mahjong and I-
Ching as such? If so, why was the idea rejected? Was it because the
people who recorded mahjong history refused to revise it?

Do we have to wait and see an old idea to believe and accept? I
remember I told Tom and may be others. Historians record old solutions
to problems. They don't usually come up with new ideas of their own.

> >[..]
>
> [..]
>
>
> Cheers
> Michael
+++++++++++
Cheers, Allan
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