Newbies and information overload

Eric Hunter wrote:
> Tehipite Tom wrote:
> > That's a pretty solid list, although I might say it more economically:
> > "read anything you can get your hands on by Paul Windsor."
>
> I freely admit to being a Windsor fan, but even knowing
> what I was looking for, it took me some work to compile
> the list, so I think the list is likely to be more useful to a
> newbie. (For the sake of completeness, I did not include
> "Chainsaw Diplomacy",
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W1998A/Windsor/Chainsaw.html
> which, while interesting, is not likely to be extremely
> helpful to a newbie, or
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2000M/Windsor/Multilateraldip.html
> because I missed it in my first search.)

Fair enough--having gone through the trouble of searching old Windsor
articles myself, I agree that you did make it a good deal easier by
assembling the links. My comment was semi-facetious, really just
acknowledging how many of the best Diplomacy articles he had written.

ratpfink wrote:
> What would make your strategy article recommended reading list for an
> absolute newbie at Diplomacy? There's not really any place on the
> Pouch, or anywhere else that I've found, that really lays it out for a
> beginner. A visit to diplomacy-archive.com's strategy articles as a
> newbie invariably leads to starting off at the top which turns out to
> be mostly piece-moving opening advice. I feel this is not the best
> place to start, as learning how and why to negotiate would be more
> useful rather than reading that you should choose a particular opening
> without knowing anything about why you should choose it. This also
> ignores the fact that there is _tons_ to read between the Pouch zine
> and the above mentioned strategy articles. No one could digest even a
> portion of that, thus leading to information overload.

Well, here's a Top-10 list of true strategy (as opposed to
opening tactics) articles.

http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999M/Windsor/point.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002R/Clarke/Bh2o.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002M/ Windsor/Persuasive_Illogic.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Windsor/dipmap.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W2000A/Tuft/Fear.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Cohen/warrior.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2002M/Cohen/Way_of_the_Warrior2.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1998R/Windsor/caissa.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999R/Windsor/caissa.html
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Windsor/caissa.html

Yes, there are actually eleven articles, but the last two caissa
articles are actually a two-part article as are the Cohen
articles, so it could be viewed as a Top-9 list.

Eric.
--

Tehipite Tom wrote:
> That's a pretty solid list, although I might say it more economically:
> "read anything you can get your hands on by Paul Windsor."

I freely admit to being a Windsor fan, but even knowing
what I was looking for, it took me some work to compile
the list, so I think the list is likely to be more useful to a
newbie. (For the sake of completeness, I did not include
"Chainsaw Diplomacy",
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W1998A/Windsor/Chainsaw.html
which, while interesting, is not likely to be extremely
helpful to a newbie, or
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2000M/Windsor/Multilateraldip.html
because I missed it in my first search.)

Eric.
--

Thanks for the plug. To my mind, the articles are related, but not really a
"two-parter".

P.S. I may be getting "Heiho Okugisho" (The Secret of High Strategy) by
Yamamoto Kansuke for Father's Day/my birthday. So there may be a Diplomacy
and the Way of the Warrior III in the not too distant future, if the book,
which I have heard about but never read, is suitable.


"Eric Hunter" <hunter90.DeleteThis@comcast.not> wrote in message
news:I9idnQNs5pj--QLfRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> ratpfink wrote:
> > What would make your strategy article recommended reading list for an
> > absolute newbie at Diplomacy? There's not really any place on the
> > Pouch, or anywhere else that I've found, that really lays it out for a
> > beginner. A visit to diplomacy-archive.com's strategy articles as a
> > newbie invariably leads to starting off at the top which turns out to
> > be mostly piece-moving opening advice. I feel this is not the best
> > place to start, as learning how and why to negotiate would be more
> > useful rather than reading that you should choose a particular opening
> > without knowing anything about why you should choose it. This also
> > ignores the fact that there is _tons_ to read between the Pouch zine
> > and the above mentioned strategy articles. No one could digest even a
> > portion of that, thus leading to information overload.
>
> Well, here's a Top-10 list of true strategy (as opposed to
> opening tactics) articles.
>
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999M/Windsor/point.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002R/Clarke/Bh2o.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002M/ Windsor/Persuasive_Illogic.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Windsor/dipmap.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W2000A/Tuft/Fear.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Cohen/warrior.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2002M/Cohen/Way_of_the_Warrior2.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1998R/Windsor/caissa.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999R/Windsor/caissa.html
> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Windsor/caissa.html
>
> Yes, there are actually eleven articles, but the last two caissa
> articles are actually a two-part article as are the Cohen
> articles, so it could be viewed as a Top-9 list.
>
> Eric.
> --
>

In article <I9idnQNs5pj--QLfRVn-sw.DeleteThis@comcast.com>, Eric Hunter
<hunter90.DeleteThis@comcast.not> writes
>ratpfink wrote:
>> What would make your strategy article recommended reading list for an
>> absolute newbie at Diplomacy? There's not really any place on the
>> Pouch, or anywhere else that I've found, that really lays it out for a
>> beginner. A visit to diplomacy-archive.com's strategy articles as a
>> newbie invariably leads to starting off at the top which turns out to
>> be mostly piece-moving opening advice. I feel this is not the best
>> place to start, as learning how and why to negotiate would be more
>> useful rather than reading that you should choose a particular opening
>> without knowing anything about why you should choose it. This also
>> ignores the fact that there is _tons_ to read between the Pouch zine
>> and the above mentioned strategy articles. No one could digest even a
>> portion of that, thus leading to information overload.
>
>Well, here's a Top-10 list of true strategy (as opposed to
>opening tactics) articles.
>
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999M/Windsor/point.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002R/Clarke/Bh2o.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002M/ Windsor/Persuasive_Illogic.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Windsor/dipmap.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W2000A/Tuft/Fear.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Cohen/warrior.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2002M/Cohen/Way_of_the_Warrior2.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1998R/Windsor/caissa.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999R/Windsor/caissa.html
>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Windsor/caissa.html


Wow! ChienFou
>
>Yes, there are actually eleven articles, but the last two caissa
>articles are actually a two-part article as are the Cohen
>articles, so it could be viewed as a Top-9 list.
>
>Eric.

--
John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou
451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou
London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com
+44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john

Hello

I have come into this hobby without any "supporter" in RL
I'd say, now that I have finished 10 full-press games,
let me try to remember how it was to me.

I remember that I have read a lot of the articles,
especially those dealing not about a specific country,
but many of those dealing with the country I
currently played as well.

The good thing about the "openings"-articles is:
They (not always of course) do give you tactical
things to think about, you can see why certain provinces
are more important then others, though ultimately you will
probably understand in an actual game.

I think you should start a game immediately if you think you
can make the commitment.
(Or do even take over an abandoned position,
my first game was an abandoned italy in 1902/03 I think)

And don't become frustrated if you lose all of your first games.
I lost four of my first five games, but I don't think it was bad
to do so. In every game you lose there are lots of things to learn.
Make mistakes, analyse them and don't do the same mistakes again.
And: Learn from the successful players in your games, what do they do.



In the meanwhile I consider these "openings"-articles to be boring most
of the time as well, but in the beginning I didn't. I suppose that to
get a feeling for the negotiations and overall strategy you first need
a certain understanding of the board and the possibilities a certain
position might give you, considering only units, not negotiations.

I'd propose not to play gunboat games, nowing whom you play against and
being allowd to talk about some things outside the game probably made it
easier for me not to fall into some kind of "nopress" mode. Besides I
consider myself very lucky with the players I had to face in my first
games, but maybe this is the normal case, I don't know.


hope your friend enjoys the game,
Dieter

"ratpfink" <karlschmit RemoveThis @gmail.com> writes:

>What would make your strategy article recommended reading list for an
>asbolute newbie at Diplomacy? There's not really any place on the
>Pouch, or anywhere else that I've found, that really lays it out for a
>beginner. A visit to diplomacy-archive.com's strategy articles as a
>newbie invariably leads to starting off at the top which turns out to
>be mostly piece-moving opening advice. I feel this is not the best
>place to start, as learning how and why to negotiate would be more
>useful rather than reading that you should choose a particular opening
>without knowing anything about why you should choose it. This also
>ignores the fact that there is _tons_ to read between the Pouch zine
>and the above mentioned strategy articles. No one could digest even a
>portion of that, thus leading to information overload.

>The context of this is a friend is going to try his first game of Dip,
>and I was hoping to be able to point him in the right direction but I'm
>not really sure where that direction is!

>Thanks!
>-Karl

As I'm now doing one of those "backseat driver" games where I'm
serving as a mentor for a new player, I am even more convinced
than I already was that we really need to do more teachme and
backseat driver games where newbies get to be paired with
someone more experienced to learn the game in CONTEXT!!!

Karl, I think that's what you should do with your friend.
It does require effort to be sure, but it's fun, and I even
find myself learning new things, especially since I'm mentoriing
someone playing Germany, my least successful country.

Jim-Bob

"John (MadDog) Probst" <john.RemoveThis@asimere.com> writes:

>In article <I9idnQNs5pj--QLfRVn-sw.RemoveThis@comcast.com>, Eric Hunter
><hunter90.RemoveThis@comcast.not> writes
>>ratpfink wrote:
>>> What would make your strategy article recommended reading list for an
>>> absolute newbie at Diplomacy? There's not really any place on the
>>> Pouch, or anywhere else that I've found, that really lays it out for a
>>> beginner. A visit to diplomacy-archive.com's strategy articles as a
>>> newbie invariably leads to starting off at the top which turns out to
>>> be mostly piece-moving opening advice. I feel this is not the best
>>> place to start, as learning how and why to negotiate would be more
>>> useful rather than reading that you should choose a particular opening
>>> without knowing anything about why you should choose it. This also
>>> ignores the fact that there is _tons_ to read between the Pouch zine
>>> and the above mentioned strategy articles. No one could digest even a
>>> portion of that, thus leading to information overload.
>>
>>Well, here's a Top-10 list of true strategy (as opposed to
>>opening tactics) articles.
>>
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999M/Windsor/point.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002R/Clarke/Bh2o.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002M/ Windsor/Persuasive_Illogic.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Windsor/dipmap.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W2000A/Tuft/Fear.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Cohen/warrior.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2002M/Cohen/Way_of_the_Warrior2.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1998R/Windsor/caissa.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999R/Windsor/caissa.html
>>http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Windsor/caissa.html


>Wow! ChienFou
>>
>>Yes, there are actually eleven articles, but the last two caissa
>>articles are actually a two-part article as are the Cohen
>>articles, so it could be viewed as a Top-9 list.
>>
>>Eric.

Wow, indeed, thanks Eric. If I were going to read them as
a newbie, I would start with Brandon Clarke's article (those
Kiwis know how to get down to brass tacks), then read Tuft's
and then work my way through the Windsor articles. I would
start with Pursuasive Illogic there, and if it doesn't make
sense to you, then I'd read all the other Windsor articles
and then come back to that one. I would read David Cohen's
articles last, as just desserts....

Jim-Bob

LOL!

"Jim Burgess" <burgess DeleteThis @TheWorld.com> wrote [edited]

I would read David Cohen's
> articles last, as just desserts....

Jim Burgess wrote:
>> Eric Hunter writes
>>> ratpfink wrote:
>>>> What would make your strategy article recommended reading
>>>> list for an absolute newbie at Diplomacy?

>>> Well, here's a Top-10 list of true strategy articles.
>>>
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999M/Windsor/point.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002R/Clarke/Bh2o.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F2002M/Windsor/Persuasive_Illogic.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Windsor/dipmap.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W2000A/Tuft/Fear.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Cohen/warrior.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2002M/Cohen/Way_of_the_Warrior2.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1998R/Windsor/caissa.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S1999R/Windsor/caissa.html
>>> http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1999M/Windsor/caissa.html

> Wow, indeed, thanks Eric. If I were going to read them as
> a newbie, I would start with Brandon Clarke's article (those
> Kiwis know how to get down to brass tacks), then read Tuft's
> and then work my way through the Windsor articles. I would
> start with Persuasive Illogic there, and if it doesn't make
> sense to you, then I'd read all the other Windsor articles
> and then come back to that one. I would read David Cohen's
> articles last, as just desserts....

It's unfortunate that I missed Mr. Windsor's article on
Multilateral Negotiation in my first search:
http://www.diplom.org/Zine/S2000M/Windsor/Multilateraldip.html
since it is, I think, the best explanation for WHY AND
HOW you should talk to everyone, every turn.

Eric.
--

Jim Burgess wrote:
>
> As I'm now doing one of those "backseat driver" games where I'm
> serving as a mentor for a new player, I am even more convinced
> than I already was that we really need to do more teachme and
> backseat driver games where newbies get to be paired with
> someone more experienced to learn the game in CONTEXT!!!
>
> Karl, I think that's what you should do with your friend.
> It does require effort to be sure, but it's fun, and I even
> find myself learning new things, especially since I'm mentoriing
> someone playing Germany, my least successful country.
>
> Jim-Bob

Jim-Bob, I pointed my friend to the newly announced "backseat driver"
type game on Redscape. I myself wouldn't feel comfortable mentoring
anyone as I feel I'm much closer to the newbie end of the spectrum
despite having played sporadically for a couple of years now.

I agree with you about having more teachme games. I've been reading
through the teachme3 press archive when I have spare time and love it!
I think you can learn a lot more from the back and forth between the
player and the coach than you can learn from just reading a press
archive from games like comments. Even if a player leaves comments for
the observers, it is usually just a broad view of their overall
strategy. When you have the players and coaches talking you get a lot
of discussion about almost everything, overall strategy down to little
nuances.

Eric, thanks for the list! That is exactly what I was looking for!

-Karl

David E. Cohen wrote:
> LOL!
>
> "Jim Burgess" <burgess.TakeThisOut@TheWorld.com> wrote [edited]
>
> I would read David Cohen's
>
>>articles last, as just desserts....
>
>
>
What!? Your leaving out my world famous "Five Stages of Elimination"
article in the Pouch!?? I am shocked! Shocked I tell you!

http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W2003A/Setzer/Stages_of_Elimination.html

"Karl Schmit" <karlschmit DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:

> I agree with you about having more teachme games. I've been reading
> through the teachme3 press archive when I have spare time and love it!
> I think you can learn a lot more from the back and forth between the
> player and the coach than you can learn from just reading a press
> archive from games like comments. Even if a player leaves comments for
> the observers, it is usually just a broad view of their overall
> strategy. When you have the players and coaches talking you get a lot
> of discussion about almost everything, overall strategy down to little
> nuances.

I was one of the players in TeachMe3, and it was an invaluable experience.
Since then, however, I've gravitated towards Gunboat Diplomacy (otherwise
known as no-press), and nearly all my Dip is now silent.

I think a gunboat (np) TeachMe game would be a great idea, especially in
view of Karl's comments above. I've discovered very little in the way of
strategy articles for gunboat (np) play, and of course there's no archive of
press from any such games. So a record of the communication between gunboat
(np) players and their coaches would be a very useful resource.

One of my ambitions is to become confident enough to volunteer as a coach
for such a game. I'm not quite there yet, which is why I'm not actually
taking steps to make it happen. I'm looking forward to the day, though...

Andy