How Inaccurate is History of Ma Diao or Mahjong?

NAQ (Never-asked-Question):
How Inaccurate is History of Ma Diao or Mahjong?

I quote from page 87 of “The playing-Card” Volume 31, number2.

“When cards for wine drinking appeared, the ancient purpose [of these
cards] was lost, and the applications became all the more shallow.”
This is in reference to Ma Diao, the 4-suited card game and others of
the Late Ming Period (1368-1644).

Lo’s translation of ma diao refers to an edition before the ancient
purpose [of these cards] was lost, and the applications became all the
more shallow” or after the ancient purpose [of these cards] was lost,
and the applications became all the more shallow”?

A more relevant question would be this. What did “zero Cash” , ”Broken
Cash” and taiji diagram (1-cash) refer to before and after the
“purpose” of the cards was lost and their “applications became all the
more shallow”?

There is no mention in the translation of Ming games on the “purpose”
or “applications” of Ma Diao. Players and scholars / historians have
been oblivious to the presence of taiji diagram in Ma Diao. Cash was
the only connection of imaginable significance.

Actually there was a hint in Feng’s manual by Lo’s translation on page
88, The Playing Card Volume 31 Number 2, as follows.

“From the Hundred Myriad we go on to the Thousand Myriad and then the
Ten Thousand Myriad. This indicates the limit, but the Ten Thousand
Myriad is not alone. It is in a supreme position but not arrogant. It
is the fulfillment of numbers. There are eleven cards.”

First the numbers in the translation were huge, outside the scope of
daily business and commerce in an agrarian society of China, when the
basic unit was one-tenth (1/10) of one cent. Those were figurative
expressions or metaphors rather than real numbers.

Words like “supreme”, “arrogant”, “limit” and “fulfillment” do not
sound like numerical quantities. They sound more like words for I-
Ching hexagrams. Direct quotes from The Living I-Ching: (pages 90,
326, 338)
Hexagram 1, the Heaven trigram doubled: six yang lines symbolize
supreme power.
Hexagram 60: to restrain, control, restrict [i.e. limit].
Hexagram 63: the yin and yang lines…alternate in their ideal
positions. Equilibrium has been reached, but after completion,
disorder must follow…One’s purpose is fulfilled.

Words such as “supreme”, “limit”, and “fulfillment” have special
meaning in I-Ching divination vocabulary. So do Accomplishment,
Nourishment and Emptiness. Read what else Feng had also said.

“Tread on what was accomplished, but do not forget the empty.
Emptiness forms the base, and accomplishment nourishes. This is why
the forty cards were invented.” [page 88, Vol.31 #2]

Feng did indicate some implicit purpose for the invention of the forty-
card, Ma Diao, although no mention (at least not in the translation)
of an application. But then, the answer might have been there in
Feng’s own words too. “When cards for wine drinking appeared, the
ancient purpose [of these cards] was lost, and the applications became
all the more shallow.”

Page 87 (Lo), “For the cash [suit], 9 is lowest and Zero Cash is
exalted and this reversal is particularly interesting. There are a
hundred games and more, because the applications are numerous, and
changes are the fashion”. I reiterate, “changes are the fashion”.

In fact, if I read it right, change was made to Ma Diao as described
in page 87 (Lo) about a “Vice Minister of War Wang Daokun [1525-93] ”
being “full of the virtue of wine” and “his rules for cash [wine
drinking cards] was written for Jiang Wenzao” [a publication or book,
书 , Shu qian ye pu, included in Lo’s note 7, page 96]. According to
Lo, “the text in this edition is corrupt”.

The question is then, does that mean the original PURPOSE and
APPLICATION of Ma Diao had been altered or destroyed during the Late
Ming period? Wang Daokun did tamper with the “rules for cash”.

That being the case, then the interpretation for symbols of taiji
diagram, Grand Ultimate Zero Cash and Broken Cash etc. had been all
left out by War Minister, Wang Daokun’s own “rules for cash”. He
reversed the order and he even “dismissed the universe”. As shown in
page 87 and I repeat. He “dismissed the [taiji] universe”.

The Taiji diagram, the Grand Ultimate, and the trigram octagon (Broken
or cut-up Cash) are all associated with Yin-Yang concept of creation
and I-Ching. Could that not be then a deeper base for the purpose and
application of the original Ma Diao? I would say yes.

Ma Diao game design (by the presence of I-Ching symbols) seems to
have been based on ancient Chinese idea and practice of I-Ching
divination, assuming all individual symbols had some purpose and some
application as a whole. On the other hand, Cash, Strings of Cash and
Myriads of Cash can not and do not relate to taiji diagram, Grand
Ultimate concept and other trigram symbols in Ma Diao.

In view of evidence cited, I can say the Late Ming edition of Chinese
card game Ma Diao and its interpretation deviated from, and is
inaccurate and incomplete with reference to, its original intended
version. Ma Diao along with its translation became a game of
meaningless “strings” of Cash and without “purpose” or “application”.
Unfortunately, the damage to Ma Diao is carried onto mahjong.
++++++++++++++
Cheers…………al

On Jan 17, 10:10 pm, al <a....TakeThisOut@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> NAQ (Never-asked-Question):
> How Inaccurate is History of Ma Diao or Mahjong?
>
Interesting question...but no discussion on it.

> I quote from page 87 of "The playing-Card" Volume 31, number2.
>
> "When cards for wine drinking appeared, the ancient purpose [of these
> cards] was lost, and the applications became all the more shallow."
> This is in reference to Ma Diao, the 4-suited card game and others of
> the Late Ming Period (1368-1644).
>
Obviously changes had been made to many games, Ma Diao included.

> Lo's translation of ma diao refers to an edition before the ancient
> purpose [of these cards] was lost, and the applications became all the
> more shallow" or after the ancient purpose [of these cards] was lost,
> and the applications became all the more shallow"?
>
Before or after? read it to mean "after".
[..]
>
> There is no mention in the translation of Ming games on the "purpose"
> or "applications" of Ma Diao. Players and scholars / historians have
> been oblivious to the presence of taiji diagram in Ma Diao. Cash was
> the only connection of imaginable significance.
>
Can't help but wonder what text was being translated...I mean did Feng
or pan call those "strings of Cash"? or did Lo interprete it using
Himly's terminology?

> Actually there was a hint in Feng's manual by Lo's translation on page
> 88, The Playing Card Volume 31 Number 2, as follows.
>
> "From the Hundred Myriad we go on to the Thousand Myriad and then the
> Ten Thousand Myriad. This indicates the limit, but the Ten Thousand
> Myriad is not alone. It is in a supreme position but not arrogant. It
> is the fulfillment of numbers. There are eleven cards."
>
I have mentioned elsewhere in a post. The Chinese language was
developed from pictographs. Words are abstracts of pictures or
symbols. Symbol have meanings embedded in them; it's symbols are
symbols of something else. Take the word or symbol for mouth, a
square; it can represent a person, a voice or the mouth itself with
lips and all.

As shown, a mouth is more than just meaning a physical part of a body.
It could mean a person behind the mouth or a voice comes out of a
mouth.

So "ten-thousand" in Ma Diao or Mahjong does not necessarily mean
10,000'
> First the numbers in the translation were huge, outside the scope of
> [..]
> [..]
> Words such as "supreme", "limit", and "fulfillment" have special
> meaning in I-Ching divination vocabulary. So do Accomplishment,
> Nourishment and Emptiness. Read what else Feng had also said.
>
> "Tread on what was accomplished, but do not forget the empty.
> Emptiness forms the base, and accomplishment nourishes. This is why
> the forty cards were invented." [page 88, Vol.31 #2]
>
> Feng did indicate some implicit purpose for the invention of the forty-
> card, Ma Diao, although no mention (at least not in the translation)
> of an application. But then, the answer might have been there in
> Feng's own words too. "When cards for wine drinking appeared, the
> ancient purpose [of these cards] was lost, and the applications became
> all the more shallow."
>
> [..]
> In fact, if I read it right, change was made to Ma Diao as described
> in page 87 (Lo) about a "Vice Minister of War Wang Daokun [1525-93] "
> being "full of the virtue of wine" and "his rules for cash [wine
> [..]
>
> The question is then, does that mean the original PURPOSE and
> APPLICATION of Ma Diao had been altered or destroyed during the Late
> Ming period? Wang Daokun did tamper with the "rules for cash".
>
> That being the case, then the interpretation for symbols of taiji
> diagram, Grand Ultimate Zero Cash and Broken Cash etc. had been all
> left out by War Minister, Wang Daokun's own "rules for cash". He
> reversed the order and he even "dismissed the universe". As shown in
> page 87 and I repeat. He "dismissed the [taiji] universe".
>
That sounds like tampering.

> The Taiji diagram, the Grand Ultimate, and the trigram octagon (Broken
> or cut-up Cash) are all associated with Yin-Yang concept of creation
> and I-Ching. Could that not be then a deeper base for the purpose and
> application of the original Ma Diao? I would say yes.
>
Yes. I stll think so.

> Ma Diao game design (by the presence of I-Ching symbols) seems to
> have been based on ancient Chinese idea and practice of I-Ching
> divination, assuming all individual symbols had some purpose and some
> application as a whole. On the other hand, Cash, Strings of Cash and
> Myriads of Cash can not and do not relate to taiji diagram, Grand
> Ultimate concept and other trigram symbols in Ma Diao.
>
The whole thing was missed long ago, even before pan, feng and Rong.

> In view of evidence cited, I can say the Late Ming edition of Chinese
> card game Ma Diao and its interpretation deviated from, and is
> inaccurate and incomplete with reference to, its original intended

In plain language, the game lost its meaning before Late Ming period.

> [inteded] version. Ma Diao along with its translation became a game of
> meaningless "strings" of Cash and without "purpose" or "application".

This was done after it was "discovered" in the 19th century.

> Unfortunately, the damage to Ma Diao is carried onto mahjong.
The history of Ma Diao and Mahjong is not accurate; yes, it's
inaccurate.
> ++++++++++++++
> Cheers............al
++++++++++
Cheers again....al