Holy Spec. The new priest off spec?

On 31 juil, 12:30, BombayMix <bombay... DeleteThis @altavista.co.uk> wrote:
> I was listening to a podcast in which class leaders from Nilithium,
> Method, Death and Taxes etc discussed various endgame-raiding issues.
>
> One thing they said was they now considered Shadow to be the primary
> spec for priests and Holy the off spec! They only raid with one holy
> priest, for spirit buff NOT for healing! They all use pallies for that
> (and trees for hots).
>
> The Shadow skill VT just so imba they won't go without it. They said
> most endgame raid bosses are design for infinite mana and VT was the
> only way to get it and thus allow the caster/healers to have enough
> mana to do the fight.
>
> One nice quote was, "There are those guilds that use Shadow priest and
> then there are those that are still struggling on Gruul".
>
> They also speculated that if Zul'Aman was as hard as they thought it
> would be, they would raid it without any holy priests! And they would
> be as wanted in their raids as a ret pally!!
>
> Nice to hear; as a Shadow priest I still get a lot of flax from people
> (esp PUGs) who think all priest should be holy and Shadow priest is
> just a gimped healer controlled by someone who doesn't understand
> their class. The only people who think different are clued up endgame
> raiders, especially healers. (I still get the feeling the tanks in my
> guild think I should be healing them.)

By design, healing is counterproductive. When you're healing someone
or something you're not damaging the enemy - you learn this the hard
way when you try to solo any sort of elite melee mob as a holy priest.

The thing is, healing is a requirement in PVE, so it's something you
have to cope with and minimize in order to maximize your raid power.
There are two ways to optimize your healing:
1) take fewer but more powerful healers.
2) take hybrid healers who passively contribute to the raid
performance.

People who manage raids don't have a clue about relative healing power
(to be honest, nobody has), because they don't have any way to
evaluate the healing abilities and capacities of a given individual
healer, so raid leaders focus on the "mean required healing" and pick
up as healers the two classes with WYSIWYG healing, Paladins and their
MT spamming and Shaman for their bread and butter Chain heal.

No such thing as a hot, no such thing as a lifebloom or a prayer of
mending... the mechanics are too complex when a holy light and a chain
heal do the job straight away.

When in theories some might argue that using resto druids and holy
priests you could have an additional raid spot or two fully dedicated
to pure dps, raid leaders around the world decided it would be best
used with a shaman or a paladin for an additional blessing or
bloodlust.

The thing is, whether it's right or not doesn't matter, it works.

On Jul 31, 2:56 pm, Darin Johnson <da....DeleteThis@usa.net> wrote:
> On Jul 31, 3:30 am, BombayMix <bombay....DeleteThis@altavista.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I was listening to a podcast in which class leaders from Nilithium,
> > Method, Death and Taxes etc discussed various endgame-raiding issues.
>
> So? Why do people listen to these guys? In the past
> I've seen Nilithium treated like prophets with the holy
> scriptures. They're just the ultimate in obsessive
> compulsive guild disorders, no reason to worship them.
> There are undoubtedly other guilds without the same
> level of public relations and self promotion who've
> finished all the raids while using different tactics,
> probably while having more fun.

Yes other guilds could use different strats, but the boss fights
usually only have 1 or 2 and rarely 3 different methods to take them
down. most have to do with positioning, not with spec or group make-
up. All boss fights since pre BC had optimal group make-ups. And yes
their word isn't the last word on it, but having the amount of
experience they have they are probably making valid pts on group make-
up as well as spec. Just like the best Arena teams currently have no
Druids on them. Even though I've seen a 5v5 made entirely of moonkin,
and figting a droood can be painful as hell. For whatever reason the
best classes for Arena (at least represented by the best Arena teams)
Seem to be Warr pallys and Shammys. I don't Think any of these end
game guilds are saying its the only way, but in their experience its
the most efficient way.

We've all been involved or watched the videos of the crazy group
makeups. 8 man Ony's, shadow priest tank only. Ret pally Hand o'
rags tank Nef etc. etc. but these have only been done when the gear
is already present, and the raid is so well geared and tuned to the
fight dynamics that improve is possible. But when your first going
into a raid, inevitably their is a tested and true way that blizz
designed the fight to be pulled off, only after you've got Kara on
farm do you or whatever raid/instance your in do you think "hey why
not have X class tank Y boss for fun." Until your in the epics you've
previously farmed from that guy those "non-optimal" group make-ups
rarely succeed.

On Jul 31, 5:30 am, BombayMix <bombay... DeleteThis @altavista.co.uk> wrote:
> The Shadow skill VT just so imba they won't go without it. They said
> most endgame raid bosses are design for infinite mana and VT was the
> only way to get it and thus allow the caster/healers to have enough
> mana to do the fight.

VT is is a crutch for them. They blow through content so quickly that
they don't have the time to gear their people properly. They focus on
gearing up their MT and then bringing their DPS up to a point where
they can beat the enrage timers on the bosses. The healers are low
priority. When healers are actually being geared up properly, the
return from VT starts to drop a lot.

Our healers for SSC have been reaching a point that we don't put
shadow priests in thier groups very often anymore. We actually put
the shadow priests in with the mana-based DPS so that they can spend
less time using tricks to regen and pump out more DPS instead. And
our holy priests are good.

On Jul 31, 9:29 am, knuts....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 31, 5:30 am, BombayMix <bombay....RemoveThis@altavista.co.uk> wrote:
> VT is is a crutch for them. They blow through content so quickly that
> they don't have the time to gear their people properly. They focus on
> gearing up their MT and then bringing their DPS up to a point where
> they can beat the enrage timers on the bosses. The healers are low
> priority. When healers are actually being geared up properly, the
> return from VT starts to drop a lot.

Probably the best assessment I've read about Nihilium's strategy.
Their objective was fastest progression, not gear or guild balance.
They swapped out half the team for some fights for very specific
roles. The fact that they went back to SSC and TK after clearing
Illidan to continue gearing up says volumes of what it took to get
there.

I've still switched from a holy priest to a holly paladin if only
because I like the versatility of the paladin more... but also it
seems that paladins are preferred for healing in general at the
moment.

Babe's comments about healing versatility being hard to account for
though are very accurate. 10 mans are chaotic enough, 25 mans must be
ludicrously confusing to coordinate when you're pushing new content.
Instant heals w/ fixed mana costs must make alot more sense to
coordinate than HoTs, Prayers of Mending and Lightwell*.

*okay, no one uses lightwell.

>I was listening to a podcast in which class leaders from Nilithium,
> Method, Death and Taxes etc discussed various endgame-raiding issues.

Just two thoughts:

1) You listened to class leaders from Nilithium or to somebody claiming to
be class leader from nilithium?

2) Even if the potcast is genuin, do you REALY whant to become like one of
thouse freaks? Sacrificing your RL to some bits on Blizzards servers?

This game is about having FUN.

If you're no healing priest, go ahead, bow to the law written down by mighty
Nilithium, refuse to group with healing priests and miss a lot of fun doing
instances and raid with some fine people out there. We will live without
you.

If you're a healing priest, having fun with class, specc, guild, group and
raid, to hell with some nerds bubbling. Go on as before, have fun playing,
group with those who know what you're capable of and save a big LOL for
those hanging on the lips of some self claimed gurus.

gernot almen wrote:
>
> This game is about having FUN.
>

It SHOULD be, but a lot of the time, it isn't.

If I had another cheap way to kill time that was actually FUN, I would
have quit WoW.

--

Best Online comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

ga> Just two thoughts:

ga> 1) You listened to class leaders from Nilithium or to somebody claiming
ga> to be class leader from nilithium?

Well just look at nihilum videos and count the holy priests :p All are
shadow but 1 as they say :p

ga> 2) Even if the potcast is genuin, do you REALY whant to become like one
ga> of thouse freaks? Sacrificing your RL to some bits on Blizzards
ga> servers?

ga> This game is about having FUN.

For some is fun to have progress and the game is made that at some point you
struggle without the optimal raid setup. For example when they came into BT
they didnt have T6 (only a few drops maybe) and they had to maximize the
effectivness of the raid to do the job in order to get new items, make the
raid stronger for future attempts. I'm sure after they farm BWL for a bit
they can have a more free class setup.

ga> If you're no healing priest, go ahead, bow to the law written down by
ga> mighty Nilithium, refuse to group with healing priests and miss a lot
ga> of fun doing instances and raid with some fine people out there. We
ga> will live without you.

> raid stronger for future attempts. I'm sure after they farm BWL for a bit
> they can have a more free class setup.

I ment BT ^^

>
> ga> If you're no healing priest, go ahead, bow to the law written down by
> ga> mighty Nilithium, refuse to group with healing priests and miss a lot
> ga> of fun doing instances and raid with some fine people out there. We
> ga> will live without you.
>

Noone said priests cant heal in raid instances they said pally do it better
and that gives them the edge in doing world firsts and clearing BT after 2
weeks with almost all SSC-TK gear. Others will do it with priests too but a
lot slower and wiping on the first parts a long time before they got all on
farm and get better gear.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 03:30:43 -0700, BombayMix <bombaymix.DeleteThis@altavista.co.uk>
wrote:

>Nice to hear; as a Shadow priest I still get a lot of flax from people
>(esp PUGs) who think all priest should be holy and Shadow priest is
>just a gimped healer controlled by someone who doesn't understand
>their class. The only people who think different are clued up endgame
>raiders, especially healers. (I still get the feeling the tanks in my
>guild think I should be healing them.)

Nice to hear for shadow priests, not for holy priests - I'm sick of my
build being put down and of knowing I wouldn't even be wanted at high level
raiding if I wanted to do it (good thing I don't) It gets very very
annoying hearing that only one build is really acceptable for a class.
Especially when that class is supposed to be the best *healer* in the game
(according to Blizzard's own original descriptions of the classes, clearly
things have changed since )
--
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