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Historical Questions on Ma Diao

 
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al

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:11 pm
Post subject: Historical Questions on Ma Diao
Archived from groups: rec>games>mahjong (more info?)

The following is a quote from the "The Late Ming Game of Ma Diao". It
appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
Card Volume xxix, Number 3.

My questions are inserted inside the paragraph in square brackets. Any
readers with in-depth knowledge of the Ma Diao game or Chinese
political and cultural history of the Ching and Ming dynasties are
invited to write their answers here.

"The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
game [Ma Diao].

"Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"

[Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]

"with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
contributing to play."

[What combinations? And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?]

"Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."

[Any known published manuals referred to and what are some of the
hundred rules?]

"This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
around the mid nineteenth century."

[What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
seventeenth and mid nineteenth century. Mahjong historians and
scholars, what was this game? And what other games more popular in or
since the mid nineteenth century? Where does mahjong fit in the time
frame?]

I find it hard to believe a game with a hundred more rules and
complicated as Ma Diao, could be a craze amongst a range of
population as described. What do you think?
++++++++++++++
Cheers.....al
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ithinc

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Since: Oct 11, 2008
Posts: 1



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Andrew Lo wrote:
> "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> contributing to play."

al <a... DeleteThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> What combinations?

Do you know what's "六红“/”七同”/“八大”/“八么”/“百肩四极”/etc.?

> And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?

You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.

ithinc
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ithinc

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Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 31



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:37 am
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Andrew Lo wrote:
> "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> contributing to play."
al <a....RemoveThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> What combinations?

Do you know what's "六红“/”七同”/“八大”/“八么”/“百肩四极”/etc.?

> And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?

You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.

ithinc
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al

External


Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 11, 11:37 am, ithinc <ithi... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Andrew Lo wrote:
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
> al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > What combinations?
>
> Do you know what's "六红"/"七同"/"八大"/"八么"/"百肩四极"/etc.?
>
No. I do not know. That was why I asked.

> > And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?
>
> You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.
>
> ithinc
+++++++++++++++
I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
questions.

I remember the story of what an aviation expert told the inventor of
helicopter that the idea will never work and even if it does, it would
be "useless". You remind me of such characters.

Since you and your great depth of knowledge have not come up with any
credible hypothesis on mahjong origin, how much value can you
attribute to all your answers? In simple terms, what is your wealth of
knowledge worth anyway?
+++++++++++++++++
Cheers....al
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user

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Since: Oct 13, 2008
Posts: 1



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 13, 2:20爌m, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> No. I do not know. That was why I asked.

When you're a student, you should have been more respectful.

> I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
> knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
> questions.

A teacher could easily judge the value of the questions from a primary
school student.

ithinc
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ithinc

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Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 31



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:18 am
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 13, 2:20 pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> No. I do not know. That was why I asked.

When you're a student, you should have been more respectful.

> I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
> knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
> questions.

A teacher could easily judge the value of the questions from a primary
school student.

ithinc
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al

External


Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:35 am
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 13, 3:18燼m, ithinc <ithi....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 2:20 pm, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > No. I do not know. That was why I asked.
>
> When you're a student, you should have been more respectful.
>
Conversely, if you are a scholar, as you think you are, you should be
more humble.

> > I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
> > knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
> > questions.
>
> A teacher could easily judge the value of the questions from a primary
> school student.
>
> ithinc
+++++++++++
Such claim is ridiculous. You missed the target. The primary students
of Chinese history and literature wrote the story of mahjong for the
Western world a while back. Where have you been?
++++++++
You are wrong again. When you can not tell the difference between a
primary school student from some one with a higher education, it's
just your own lack of experience. I was tempted to say it's your own
stupidity, but I reserve judgment for now.
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al

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 243



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:44 am
Post subject: Re: Historical Questions on Ma Diao [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 11, 10:37 am, ithinc <ithi....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andrew Lo wrote:
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
> al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > What combinations?
>
> Do you know what's "六红"/"七同"/"八大"/"八么"/"百肩四极"/etc.?
>
No. I do not know all that. I am not concerned either.

> > And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?

That was the question. What is the answer?
>
> You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.
>
> ithinc
+++++++++++
I do know something about Madiao, and probably more than you think.
But I want to know more, so here are some questions for scholars and
historians who might have in-depth knowledge for the game.
++++++++++
Questions on Ma Diao:

(1) Is the name Ma Tiao or Ma Diao?
(2) What does it really mean, one of the following?

Ma Diao = Horse Hang =马吊
Ma Diao = Horse Drop =马 掉.
Ma Tiao = Twin Lines = 孖条

(3) What is this about? "Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is
ideal for storage and saving."

(4) How about this? " do not forget the empty. Emptiness forms the
base...This is why the forty cards were invented."

(5) Why is this "Void" in the following description? "The supreme,
Zero Cash...with a heading 'Void of one cash'."

(6) The "1-Cash" was said to be "like the diagram of the taiji (grand
ultimate)". Was it the taiji yin-yang diagram or just "like" it and
why?

All these 6 questions refer to material written by Pan Zhiheng
(1556-1622) on pages 88 and 89 in English translation of The Playing-
Card Volume 31 Number 2.

(7) Where else do terms such as "supreme, emptiness, void, taiji
diagram, grand ultimate" etc. appear and what do they associate with,
infer or imply?

(Cool Final question: if Ma Diao is related to Mahjong even remotely,
would they share something common in concept (like Void, Taiji
diagram, Ultimate, Emptiness, etc.) other than so-called "Cash-suited"
idea?
++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec. 8, 2008
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