Helios Crash

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:ddsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
> pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>

Who was left alive to report that the Captain left the cockpit?
Didn't the F16's report seeing both crew 'slumped' in their seats.

As an aside to this, with the extra security (thicker doors, etc) preventing
unauthorised access to the flight deck who has control of access?

Chris

"Chris Curtis" <chris DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
news:s4qdnTAC3NjFJJzeRVnyvg@pipex.net...
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ddsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
>> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
>> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
>> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
>> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
>> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
>> pilots.
>>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>>
>
> Who was left alive to report that the Captain left the cockpit?
> Didn't the F16's report seeing both crew 'slumped' in their seats.
>
> As an aside to this, with the extra security (thicker doors, etc)
> preventing unauthorised access to the flight deck who has control of
> access?
>
> Chris

Extract from AP report
Investigators also were trying to determine why the pilot was not in his
seat shortly before the crash.

The pilots of two Greek air force F-16 fighter planes scrambled to intercept
the plane after it lost contact with air traffic control shortly after
entering Greek airspace said they saw the co-pilot slumped over the
controls. The pilot did not appear to be in the cockpit, and oxygen masks
were seen dangling in the cabin.

The fighter jet pilots also saw two people possibly trying to take control
of the plane; it was unclear if they were crew members or passengers.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:ddsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.

Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
naughty but is there a grain of truth?) It was a really tragic event and
made so much worse by the reports that the a/craft had been in maintenance
to have an air conditioning problem fixed.

Regarding the two passengers seen struggling with the controls, it does make
you wonder whether they knew what they were doing. As you say Ibby, if the
AP was engaged the plane should have kept flying. But what I wonder is what
could cause such a sudden depress? Perhaps we'd better wait for the results
of the enquiry.

Incidentally, couldn't there be an automatic system that immediately starts
a descent to 10000 ft or whatever, in the event of a sudden
depressurisation? Or would that be seen as taking control away from the
pilots?

Iain

Iain Smith <iainsmith.rugby DeleteThis @btinternet.com> wrote:

> Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
> naughty but is there a grain of truth?)

Spare me that anti-US bias, will you?

If you care to read rec.aviation.piloting, which is made up mostly of
US-based pilots as regular contributors, you will see plenty of threads
about this very disturbing accident.

--
Peter
























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They found both black boxes but I believe one is quite damaged. With regard
to automatic descent I suppose that would depend on terrain. This automatic
system may well crash the aircraft anyway.

Ibby

"Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby DeleteThis @btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ddsk2v$9cn$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ddsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>
> Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
> naughty but is there a grain of truth?) It was a really tragic event and
> made so much worse by the reports that the a/craft had been in maintenance
> to have an air conditioning problem fixed.
>
> Regarding the two passengers seen struggling with the controls, it does
> make you wonder whether they knew what they were doing. As you say Ibby,
> if the AP was engaged the plane should have kept flying. But what I wonder
> is what could cause such a sudden depress? Perhaps we'd better wait for
> the results of the enquiry.
>
> Incidentally, couldn't there be an automatic system that immediately
> starts a descent to 10000 ft or whatever, in the event of a sudden
> depressurisation? Or would that be seen as taking control away from the
> pilots?
>
> Iain
>

"Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
><chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ddsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>
>Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
>naughty but is there a grain of truth?) It was a really tragic event and
>made so much worse by the reports that the a/craft had been in maintenance
>to have an air conditioning problem fixed.

Because it didn't happen on FS9??

But if you went over to alt.disasters.aviation - there's lots of
activity about this tragedy.

-=tom=-

i think the main problem is they have a rather short supply of O2 in the
cockpit, however it seems the plane was on autopilot at crusing alt, even
with no cabin pressure! (

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:ddsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
> pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>
> --
> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>
> Athlon64 3000+
> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> 80G H-D
> 60G H-D
> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> Windows XP SP2
>
>

Beech45Whiskey wrote:

> Iain Smith <iainsmith.rugby.RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
>>naughty but is there a grain of truth?)
>
>
> Spare me that anti-US bias, will you?
>
> If you care to read rec.aviation.piloting, which is made up mostly of
> US-based pilots as regular contributors, you will see plenty of threads
> about this very disturbing accident.
>
As well as the PPRUNE forum. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/)
To answer the original question, the plane almost certainly ran out of
fuel while on autopilot at exactly the predicted time- planned flight
time + reserve.

T.

"Jose L Altuve Jr." <Jose L Altuve Jr..TakeThisOut@forums.simradar.com> wrote in message
news:1124201989.15644@forums.simradar.com...
> It has been reported that the SMS message sent by a passenger before
> the crash was a Hoax, As I recall, the news about the SMS message where
> published shortly after the crash when nobody knew what really
> happened.
>
> So is this a coincidence? the contents of the SMS message where 'we are
> freezing here' or something like that... the only situation I think
> passengers will freeze to death is above FL30 in a catastrophic loss of
> air pressure, which is, what supposedly happen to this plane...
>

Well we are talking about a country with a legal system who managed to
imprison a load of plane spotters who were 'spying' a few years back!
I guess it is the so called 'recipient' of the message who is under
investigation. Nobody in those circumstances is going to send a hoax.

Incidentally and it has no bearing or real relevance regarding this incident
but you may remember I posted last week about a flight from Cyprus which had
a go around at Heathrow and I questioned the length of time it took for the
passengers to be informed as to why; that was the same airline.

Chris

> To answer the original question, the plane almost certainly ran out of
> fuel while on autopilot at exactly the predicted time- planned flight time
> + reserve.
>

it didnt even get to its destination, it was still 20miles (or was it KM?)
from athens, so how could it have run out of fuel+reserve???

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb

"Adam Webb" <adam RemoveThis @ajmysecondname.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

>it didnt even get to its destination, it was still 20miles (or was it KM?)
>from athens, so how could it have run out of fuel+reserve???

If that AP acted like the one in our FS, then it would circle once it
reached thelast waypoin or approach fix, depending on what the pilots
entered into the AP on departure.
The only way it would continue on a straight heading is if HDG was
selected.

-=tom=-

> Well we are talking about a country with a legal system who managed to
> imprison a load of plane spotters who were 'spying' a few years back!

to be fair, greece is still "at war" or should i say very very against the
turks after the whole Cyprus "war" thing. Greek airports, like Thessaloniki
are coverd with Missile batteries, and have fighter jets on station. ALL
greek airports ive been to that are within range of Turkey have strict *NO
PHOTO* rules. Break them, and you will loose your camera at the very least.
Of coarse if you are on the plane they cant really stop you! They have
relaxed the ruling on other airports lately but "front line" airports are
treated as miliatary bases.....

Where as in spain, your allowed to take photos pretty much anywhere.



--
From Overlag - Adam Webb

> If that AP acted like the one in our FS, then it would circle once it
> reached thelast waypoin or approach fix, depending on what the pilots
> entered into the AP on departure.
> The only way it would continue on a straight heading is if HDG was
> selected.

ah, true, didnt think of that.

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb