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Since: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 4809
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:58 am
Post subject: Game vs Simulation Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)
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Hi,
While browsing the Paper Wars cd (a compendium of boardgame reviews)
there's one thing that triggered my attention : the amount of
boardgames that are either totally or partially card-based. Now,
there's a good reason for this : boardgames are primarily designed for
FTF play and with the limited FOW inherent in most boardgames these
cards become the prime suspense factor. And the prime surprise/luck
factor. This makes for great entertainment between opposing players as
even the totally unskilled player can win dramatically just by being a
lucky bastard. These are the games that get remembered and retold.
That's entertainment. That's what I call a game.
PC wargames otoh are almost devoid of "luck" - I'm not talking about
the operational surprise of a Panzer battalion appearing early in your
flank here, or the 20% chance that a certain event might trigger if
such and such condition are met. No, I'm talking about things you can't
guard against, the cold shower surprises. PC wargames are more evenly
balanced, even so that the unskilled player gets clobbered heavily
every time. PC wargames have predictable outcomes, they are not games,
they are simulations.
I've been thinking about why pc wargame developers haven't developed a
kind of card-drawing mechanism in their games in order to emulate the
success of card-driven boardgames.
Maybe it's because pc wargamers don't like luck playing such an
important part - if the AI would pull such a stunt the boards would be
overflowing with "the AI is cheating" messages, if it happens in an
online game they would feel cheated out of a deserved victory.
Maybe it's because you don't mind losing against a buddy across the
table who had more luck than he'd ever deserve than against some dumb
AI or a faceless opponent on the 'net.
Maybe it's because AI's can't cope with such swings of fortune - or
can't develop a strategy of holding on to a certain card in the hope
you'll draw it's companion in the next turn for a double whammy.
Maybe it's a combination of things, but sometimes I wish my pc wargames
were a little bit more entertainment and a bit less simulation.
All ideas on this and/or totally unrelated subjects - as always -
appreciated
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx |
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Since: Sep 15, 2005 Posts: 47
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I don't think I agree with your statement "PC wargames are more evenly
balanced, even so that the unskilled player gets clobbered heavily
every time. PC wargames have predictable outcomes, they are not games,
they are simulations. "
By this logic, Go and Chess are simulations and not games, because I
consistently get clobbered by more skilled players. |
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Since: Sep 18, 2005 Posts: 191
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hey Eddy,
Just for you I'm going to write a new function in COTA to be called the
SterckxSurpriseDraw() that will randomly create surprise events in the
game. We'll have natural disasters like earthquakes, the arrival of the
odd Panzer Army in your rear echelon and the piece de resistrance will
be the death of the leader occassioned by a short high voltage electric
discharge through the mouse. When the latter event occurs people will
say "well I was just about to win when I got sterckxed". This of course
will be a user option for all except yourself mate.  ) |
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Since: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 4809
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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jari k schreef:
> For example in HOI2 style of game you might get lucky and your
> technology advances very fast, but because things are happening under
> the hood it is like flow that varies in speed ..no sudden "*bwham*
> muhahahaa! I got these cards! I can conquer the world!" feeling but more
> slow happy feeling when things seem to go quite ok.
Yup, you've put your finger on it - the sudden surge of happiness when
you draw the right card or despair when your opponent plays the double
whammy is something that is lacking in pc wargames.
> and importantly also there would be
> this instant feedback that you were lucky right now.
Important point indeed : the game needs to communicate this well.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx |
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Since: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 4809
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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fizzy schreef:
> I don't think I agree with your statement "PC wargames are more evenly
> balanced, even so that the unskilled player gets clobbered heavily
> every time. PC wargames have predictable outcomes, they are not games,
> they are simulations. "
>
> By this logic, Go and Chess are simulations and not games, because I
> consistently get clobbered by more skilled players.
eh, my point exactly - there are no surprises in chess, no fow, no
"place an extra queen piece anywhere on the board" card you can draw.
Chess is a simulation.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx |
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Since: Sep 18, 2005 Posts: 191
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:26 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Eddy, you need to play some more head to head games. |
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Since: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 4809
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Arjuna schreef:
> Eddy, you need to play some more head to head games.
<innocently>
This suggestions wouldn't have anything to do with your request of a
focus on COTA network testing, would it ?
</innocently>
Well, last night I had an "Oops, didn't see that one coming" moment in
COTA but only so because I was so much focused on the fighting around
the lunatic asylum on Malta I didn't notice an AI counterattack on my
right flank until it was too late to send reserves over there.
The irony is that it happened a couple of hours after my "complaint"
that wargames can't surprise me anymore
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx |
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Since: Sep 18, 2005 Posts: 191
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Eddy,
>I was so much focused on the fighting around
the lunatic asylum on Malta
You mean Eddy's Hollow don't you?  |
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Since: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 4809
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:03 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Arjuna schreef:
> Eddy,
>
> >I was so much focused on the fighting around
> the lunatic asylum on Malta
>
> You mean Eddy's Hollow don't you?
Ah, you already fixed that bug
some inside information here : I was testing a Malta scenario when I
saw the lunatic asylum on the map - which IRL really was there - so I
immediatly did a screen capture and reported it as a bug saying it
should be "Panther Games HQ". Arjuna was more inclined to call it
"Eddy's Hollow" and I agreed on the condition that it was made a
victory location.
Before someone thinks that this kind of bs is causing the game to be
delayed : this sort of post is not indicative of the threads in the
beta-forum where some deadly serious debates are held on the realism
and/or advisability of some features. Most of which goes way over my
head which doesn't stop me from cheerfully participating anyway. A bit
like in here reallly.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx |
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Since: Jul 08, 2005 Posts: 9
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:24 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Interesting discussion on the random effect. I just bought and started
playing Memoir '44, the WWII succesor to Battle Cry by designer Richard
Borg.
Action on the mapboard is card driven by either action cards (giving
you movement options on certain parts of the map) or tactical cards
(giving you certain options like air attack, close assault or off map
bombardment).
You draw cards blind from the stack, so there's the luck factor, but
you can choose which card in your hand you want to play.
This gives tactical surprises and randomnes in the game.
Perhaps operational cards could be added in a later version (or as
house rules) with say:
* fuel dumps blown: no armoured units can move the rest of the game;
* higher HQ bombed: no movement orders may be issued in your next turn;
* extra airdrop available with reinforcements.
Such randomnes could be programmed in with PC games too. Although you
should put them at 1% chance of happening (or so), they could add spice
to a wargame.
Maybe not in a historical scenario, but certainly in a "what if"
scenario.
Bas |
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Since: Jul 08, 2005 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:05 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I agree that it would be nice. In computer games, except Risk that is
based on board game, I have only seen random effect in roll of dice when
calculating battle results. And perhaps some random elements that say it
is raining on that day and your planes can't fly or tanks get stuck in
mud. Random but something happening under the hood.
What I believe you want, and I also would like when think of it, is
random element that you can control and partly plan on. What I have seen
(and remember) in computer games is using your card analogy close to
that in beginning of your turn you would turn a card from deck and it
might contain something. But more interesting (board/card) games have it
so that there might be this one card you turn right away but then you
also collect these random elements and can do some planning using them.
For example in HOI2 style of game you might get lucky and your
technology advances very fast, but because things are happening under
the hood it is like flow that varies in speed ..no sudden "*bwham*
muhahahaa! I got these cards! I can conquer the world!" feeling but more
slow happy feeling when things seem to go quite ok.
For some type of games it would be great to have such random element you
could at least partially control, and importantly also there would be
this instant feedback that you were lucky right now.
--
jari k
remove unnecessary parts of address to make it work |
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Since: Sep 15, 2005 Posts: 47
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:10 am
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Chess is a simulation.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx"
I hate to get in a pissing war over semantics, but chess is a game, and
has been considered a game for about 1500 years by millions of people,
regardless of your attempt to recategorize it as a "simulation" based
on an arbitrary definition.
Think of if however you want to -- there are no thought police around
-- but that doesn't change history or the dictionary. |
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Since: Sep 15, 2005 Posts: 47
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I still fail to see what chess, a highly idealized and abstract game,
simulates. It bears almost no resemblance to anything real or
historical. I would submit that any historical wargame, even one with
a lot of randomness, would mostly likely be a better simulation. |
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Since: Jan 02, 2006 Posts: 247
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"fizzy" <ewoh27 DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in news:1120839036.037135.230740
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I hate to get in a pissing war over semantics, but chess is a game,
and
> has been considered a game for about 1500 years by millions of people,
> regardless of your attempt to recategorize it as a "simulation" based
> on an arbitrary definition.
Of course it's an arbitrary definition - I made it up myself  -
simulations are games too - maybe I should have called them "games where
luck plays a major part" vs. "realistic games that involve some random
events but are for the most part skill oriented"
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
--
"Ceterum censeo Belgicam delendam."
(Cato, 'Pro Gerolphe') |
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Since: Jul 09, 2005 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Game vs Simulation [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2005-07-08, eddysterckx.DeleteThis@hotmail.com <eddysterckx.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yup, you've put your finger on it - the sudden surge of happiness when
> you draw the right card or despair when your opponent plays the double
> whammy is something that is lacking in pc wargames.
Thank goodness...
Cards to me are inappropriate in most strategic and tactical games,
especially wargames.
Most of the time I find their being played a jarring event that keeps
the game from being immersive.
Random events are fine only if they actually relate to what is
happening. Most card based games do nothing to ensure that the events
have anything to do with what is going on in the game.
Having said that, for some games it is OK, because they are much more
casual. I still like playing Risk and other games that use cards, but
they are generally games that take a much more higher level view than
what I usually play.
--
shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["Star Wars Moral Number 17: Teddy bears are
dangerous in herds."] |
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| Related Topics: | Training & Simulation Journal on HTTR and CMAK - Hi, Read it all here : http://www.tsjonline.com/story.php?F=1193771 Greetz, Eddy Sterckx
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