EA developing System Shock 3

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Walter Mitty wrote:

> before or after you spent 1.5 years patching it?

Before of course! As I already said, the basic gameplay was intact from
the beginning with each quest possible at least in one way. But as there
are so many options possible in Bloodlines, several of those did not work
and had to be fixed. Also a lot of my time I spend integrating stuff that
was in the game files but not in the game itself because Troika had no
time to test it like additional weapons, models or the history mode.

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, mace wrote:

>> Yes. And I liked Dx:IW although most people did bash it while praising the
>> IMHO much worse SS2. Blaming it all on console co-developing again?
>
> Now you just have to be kidding! But, if you are serious then I have to
> seriously rethink the idea about giving Vampire a second chance.

Well, I said I liked it, not that is was a great all time classic .

> Well, in the NGs people tend to exaggerate a *little* bit... And
> whenever someone even mentions SS2 you're ALWAYS repeating, ad nauseum,
> those same insignificant - so called - "glitches".

I'm only repeating these things when somebody exaggerately praises SS2 and
I'll do the same for Deus Ex and Walter does the same for Far Cry. Maybe
we just don't like these "wrong" masterpiece exaggerations ad nauseum !
Also from this thread it seems that while I may be alone with my dislike
of the missing NPCs, most do agree about the SS2 weapons and respawning.

> But, the undeniable truth is that at the time of UW 1, 2 and SS 1, they
> were truly MINDBLOWING games, and years and years ahead of their time.

I agree, but this is different in the case of SS2 in my opinion.

>> No, but I believe you that it is a masterpiece. None of the minor glitches
>> or bad design decisions of SS2 were present in SS1 after all or were they?
>
> Ahem..they are features for me, and yes they were.

Breaking weapons and senseless respawning enemies were features of SS1?

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, StreetMedic wrote:

> Werner Spahl wrote:
>
>> Imagine the terror of witnessing them being slaughtered in front
>> of your eyes instead of finding just another set of corpses with log
>> files nearby!
>
> Yeh, but that's a subjective assessment, and depends more on the
> intended effect of the designer.

I agree and it did work for me as well the first time. What I disliked is
that they tried it over and over again until it didn't work anymore. One
NPC meeting death before my eyes and I would have been curious again. But
so I recognized early on that I would never meet someone and I was right.

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

Werner Spahl wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, StreetMedic wrote:
>
>> Werner Spahl wrote:
>>
>>> Imagine the terror of witnessing them being slaughtered in front
>>> of your eyes instead of finding just another set of corpses with log
>>> files nearby!
>>
>> Yeh, but that's a subjective assessment, and depends more on the
>> intended effect of the designer.
>
> I agree and it did work for me as well the first time. What I disliked
> is that they tried it over and over again until it didn't work anymore.
> One NPC meeting death before my eyes and I would have been curious
> again. But so I recognized early on that I would never meet someone and
> I was right.
>

Hmm. Well, put that way, I see what you mean.

That didn't occur to me back when I first played through it (jeez, has
it really been that long?!), but I can see how a more seasoned gamer may
get desensitized by static "scenery" in lieu of "set pieces" to move the
plot along.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006, pigdos wrote:

> I wish you hadn't mentioned this, because I found it a really annoying
> fault of SS2 (that you don't have the skill to use a weapon). It doesn't

I already forgot that SS2 "glitch" or "feature" or whatever . Not being
able to pull the trigger because you didn't have the skill to do so...

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Xocyll wrote:

> You seem to have forgotten that there were a couple survivors in SS2 -
> you missed meeting them by seconds, but they were there.

I already mentioned them in this thread in an earlier posting .

> Melee weapons didn't wear and neither did the psi-amp.

Melee weapons don't wearing made the fault even more obvious to me.

> Respawn was bad for the DOOM generation since they'd become used to the
> idea of clearing a level and it remaining clear for all time afterwards

That was not the point. Respawning enemies are quite common in FPS as
well, but respawning in rooms whithout exit just didn't fit the game.

> Or not dropping any weapon at all, or dropping the weapon then
> evaporating it - eastern vampire in santa monica drops a katana but you
> can't have it.

I didn't mention that because it will be gone in the next patch ! Pretty
much any enemy will drop his weapon, even that eastern vampire will leave
a "chinese replica" of a katana .

> The whole "you can't have this weapon yet, you have to have reached set
> point X first" is one of the WORST design points of all time, but I
> don't see you criticizing Bloodlines for using it.

I think the only time this actually happens in Bloodlines is the eastern
vampire and I just fixed that. The other might have been the sniper rifle
of Bach but that was fixed already in my first patch!

> Or not being able to carry two of the same weapon and selling the
> excess, or selling ammo or...

I agree, the whole inventory systems has it's flaws and I can't fix it.
Still better than that of DX .

> At least in SS2, if you had the skill to use a weapon, you could use it
> immediately upon finding it, instead of having to wait till a certain
> point in the story before you're ALLOWED to start using it.

Sorry, as someone else here stated already the skill preventing you from
using a weapon was a critical flaw of SS2. Bloodlines handles these things
much better. Not being able to pull a trigger is ridiculous!

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608211436360.2144 RemoveThis @cicum1.cup.uni-muenchen.de>,
Werner Spahl <spahl RemoveThis @cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
>Sorry, as someone else here stated already the skill preventing you from
>using a weapon was a critical flaw of SS2. Bloodlines handles these things
>much better. Not being able to pull a trigger is ridiculous!

Not so much as it may sound. We have already started discussing the
possibility of creating handguns that will refuse to go off unless
they are being held by authorised people. As yet, that remains
unfeasible for the mass market, but we will eventually get them. The
weapons manufacturers just have to become comfortable with adding
electronics to their guns first.

For SS2's nanite-infested setting to have guns that will refuse to
work for unlicensed personnel seems quite reasonable. What would the
starship come to if any green 'cruit could just pick a rocket launcher
off of the weapons rack and pull the the thing's trigger??

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd RemoveThis @pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

Werner Spahl wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Xocyll wrote:
>
> > You seem to have forgotten that there were a couple survivors in SS2 -
> > you missed meeting them by seconds, but they were there.
>
> I already mentioned them in this thread in an earlier posting .
>
> > Melee weapons didn't wear and neither did the psi-amp.
>
> Melee weapons don't wearing made the fault even more obvious to me.
>
> > Respawn was bad for the DOOM generation since they'd become used to the
> > idea of clearing a level and it remaining clear for all time afterwards
>
> That was not the point. Respawning enemies are quite common in FPS as
> well, but respawning in rooms whithout exit just didn't fit the game.
>
> > Or not dropping any weapon at all, or dropping the weapon then
> > evaporating it - eastern vampire in santa monica drops a katana but you
> > can't have it.
>
> I didn't mention that because it will be gone in the next patch ! Pretty
> much any enemy will drop his weapon, even that eastern vampire will leave
> a "chinese replica" of a katana .
>
> > The whole "you can't have this weapon yet, you have to have reached set
> > point X first" is one of the WORST design points of all time, but I
> > don't see you criticizing Bloodlines for using it.
>
> I think the only time this actually happens in Bloodlines is the eastern
> vampire and I just fixed that. The other might have been the sniper rifle
> of Bach but that was fixed already in my first patch!
>
> > Or not being able to carry two of the same weapon and selling the
> > excess, or selling ammo or...
>
> I agree, the whole inventory systems has it's flaws and I can't fix it.
> Still better than that of DX .
>
> > At least in SS2, if you had the skill to use a weapon, you could use it
> > immediately upon finding it, instead of having to wait till a certain
> > point in the story before you're ALLOWED to start using it.
>
> Sorry, as someone else here stated already the skill preventing you from
> using a weapon was a critical flaw of SS2. Bloodlines handles these things
> much better. Not being able to pull a trigger is ridiculous!
>

What is truly ridiculous is that you can be shooting your heart out
without a noticeable effect! Guess the game.

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Bent C Dalager wrote:

> For SS2's nanite-infested setting to have guns that will refuse to
> work for unlicensed personnel seems quite reasonable. What would the
> starship come to if any green 'cruit could just pick a rocket launcher
> off of the weapons rack and pull the the thing's trigger??

Why can he pull ammo for it out of a dispenser in the first place then?
Which reminds me of the DX:IW ammo everyone hates . Anyway, getting a
key for a weapon is one thing, not being able to use it due to "skill"
is another. I don't remember, did this also apply to melee weapons?

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

Werner Spahl <spahl.DeleteThis@cup.uni-muenchen.de> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Xocyll wrote:
>
>> You seem to have forgotten that there were a couple survivors in SS2 -
>> you missed meeting them by seconds, but they were there.
>
>I already mentioned them in this thread in an earlier posting .

Must have missed that.

>> Melee weapons didn't wear and neither did the psi-amp.
>
>Melee weapons don't wearing made the fault even more obvious to me.

Why? Guns have moving parts that can jam, but a hunk of metal is just a
hunk of metal.

>> Respawn was bad for the DOOM generation since they'd become used to the
>> idea of clearing a level and it remaining clear for all time afterwards
>
>That was not the point. Respawning enemies are quite common in FPS as
>well, but respawning in rooms whithout exit just didn't fit the game.

Well that was kind of annoying yeah, but I think that's just a symptom
of the living biosphere they tried to make.

At least they spawned out of sight - even if it was a dead end - unlike
for instance Knights of the Old Republic which spawned enemies in a dead
end in plain sight on that final space station.

>> Or not dropping any weapon at all, or dropping the weapon then
>> evaporating it - eastern vampire in santa monica drops a katana but you
>> can't have it.
>
>I didn't mention that because it will be gone in the next patch ! Pretty
>much any enemy will drop his weapon, even that eastern vampire will leave
>a "chinese replica" of a katana .

Well ok, you're changing things - the designers on the other hand worked
on the dribble the weapons out through the game - heaven forbid a
character might get hold of a good weapon early.

>> The whole "you can't have this weapon yet, you have to have reached set
>> point X first" is one of the WORST design points of all time, but I
>> don't see you criticizing Bloodlines for using it.
>
>I think the only time this actually happens in Bloodlines is the eastern
>vampire and I just fixed that. The other might have been the sniper rifle
>of Bach but that was fixed already in my first patch!

Those submachine guns in the parking garage - there had to be at _least_
a dozen of them, yet mysteriously not one ever showed up as loot because
the designers had decided you weren't allowed to have that weapon yet.

>> Or not being able to carry two of the same weapon and selling the
>> excess, or selling ammo or...
>
>I agree, the whole inventory systems has it's flaws and I can't fix it.
>Still better than that of DX .

And it's a far worse flaw than the one in SS2.

>> At least in SS2, if you had the skill to use a weapon, you could use it
>> immediately upon finding it, instead of having to wait till a certain
>> point in the story before you're ALLOWED to start using it.
>
>Sorry, as someone else here stated already the skill preventing you from
>using a weapon was a critical flaw of SS2. Bloodlines handles these things
>much better. Not being able to pull a trigger is ridiculous!

Not knowing how to use it properly and/or weapons having implanted
circuitry (and presumably the soldier also having implants) that won't
let him use something he's not qualified for.

That is a bit of a stretch, but it can explain why.

What's the explanation for all the weapons in Bloodlines not dropping,
or only being able to have one of them, etc?

Dumbass designer is the only one I can think of.


Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Werner Spahl wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2006, mace wrote:
>
> > What is truly ridiculous is that you can be shooting your heart out
> > without a noticeable effect! Guess the game.
>
> If this is supposed to be against Bloodlines I don't get it. I played a
> ranged Toreador without problems...
>

In the beginning of the game I tested the Vampire's weapon system with
a couple of the points in the relevant skill. Then I chose an innocent
bystander and shot him a point blank range to the head...Surely one or
two rounds would do the job even at low skill level, right? NOPE, it
took about 5-6 shots and that's SUPER RIDICULOUS!

So, at least, at the start of the game the guns were totally,
ridiculously useless.

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608211634180.2144.DeleteThis@cicum1.cup.uni-muenchen.de>,
Werner Spahl <spahl.DeleteThis@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Bent C Dalager wrote:
>
>> For SS2's nanite-infested setting to have guns that will refuse to
>> work for unlicensed personnel seems quite reasonable. What would the
>> starship come to if any green 'cruit could just pick a rocket launcher
>> off of the weapons rack and pull the the thing's trigger??
>
>Why can he pull ammo for it out of a dispenser in the first place then?

Why shouldn't he - the dispenser knows he can't use it without a
permit anyway. Perhaps he's just out shopping for his mom or
something.

There's no reason he shouldn't be allowed to buy the actual weapon
either - without the permit, it's basically just a useless lump of
metal.

>Which reminds me of the DX:IW ammo everyone hates . Anyway, getting a
>key for a weapon is one thing, not being able to use it due to "skill"
>is another.

My suggestion is that the skill _is_ the key. That is, the weapon
knows you're not skilled so it refuses to be used by you.

> I don't remember, did this also apply to melee weapons?

I think there might have been an "exotic" melee weapon (a shard
thingie) that you couldn't use without Exotic skill (or somesuch). If
memory serves me correctly, this weapon looked more dangerous for the
wielder than for his enemy anyway so I could accept that. It always
seemed a bit like holding a sword in the sharp end and banging the
enemy over the head with its hilt . . .

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.DeleteThis@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

Werner Spahl wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006, mace wrote:
>
> > So, at least, at the start of the game the guns were totally,
> > ridiculously useless.
>
> I think this is not so much a problem of the guns as of the missing
> headshot in Bloodlines. Or could you kill the same guy with one stab
> of a knife? Maybe they reduced the combat damage to make the verbal
> alternatives more attractive instead of turning it into another FPS.
>

You really don't get it, do you. The point here is that every game has
its flaws but those 'minor glitches' usually don't affect the wholeness
of a game. Like those, your beloved, features in SS2 which were
"corrected" in the patch anyway. Really good games are something way,
way more than the sum of the parts - like SS2 was.

What was turning me away from Bloodlines, at the time, was that
horrible DX:IW flashback with the most prop-like, unnatural,
artificial, cramped,...settings of the first level in the game. Still,
I'am acknowledging that there was probably a good and interesting
story-driven game behind all of that clutter but back then something
more interesting draw me away from it.