Dragon-portable weapons?

In message <g50m26$nor$1@haven.eyrie.org>, Dave Van Domelen
<dvandom.DeleteThis@haven.eyrie.org> writes
> Heh, Congreves were going to be my first suggestion. Until field
>artillery could be made with good rifling, rockets were definitely superior
>in terms of range and accuracy, plus portability...and it sounds like you're
>about in that technological range where Congreves would be preferable to
>light field guns even without the weight issue.
> If the dragons have a certain degree of fireproofing, you might consider
>naphtha bombs or some other chemical firebomb that'll ignite on contact with
>air (fire-resistant dragons would be less worried about accidental
>self-detonation). Just load the stuff into something breakable and bombs
>away.

They're tougher than humans but by no means fireproof, especially wing
membranes etc., and probably wouldn't fancy the idea of an accidental
detonation.

> Don't underestimate the value of low-tech solutions that become more
>effective with the addition of aerial mobility. Packages of darts released
>from a great height and with high terminal velocity could be used against
>targets with strong frontal defenses but open tops, as most improvised
>fieldworks will be. Similarly, anything unpleasant one might load into a
>catapult (like rancid offal, ammonia bags, etc) could be dropped with
>reasonable precision from dragonwing onto troops for demoralizing effect.
>
I've used that idea quite a bit in other settings, going back to Space
1889 where I invented the spikedropper for their small vessel combat
system, but I suppose it won't hurt to use it again. Needless to say the
Yarge (humans) will have had a lot of experience dealing with this one!

> Dave Van Domelen, wouldn't recommend plague warfare this way, though.
>
>

--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours
The Original Flatland Role Playing Game

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Marcus L. Rowland wrote:

> My basic idea for an air-transportable heavier weapon is a squad of dragons
> carrying a lightweight cannon that breaks down to several components (the
> barrel is obviously the heavy one), plus the wheels, frame, ammo, etc.; they
> have to land to use it, of course, but it's very good for skirmishing.

Thats the realm of parachute dropped eapons and mountain guns from WWII

> What I'm looking for is another dragon-portable weapon, something a little
> more exotic - not bombs or grenades, I think, they don't really have accurate
> enough fuses or detonator caps. Something like Congreve rockets might be a
> possibility, any other suggestions?

Mortars would work. THey can be very portable and have existed in various
forms. You can stay away from the modern stuff if you want to. IIC they
got them down to a couple of hundred pounds - I dare say you could finagle
how that was broken down. Early trench mortars fired anything a cannon
could....then you have the modern really light man-portables from the 1st
World War. If you want to limit who si carying explosives then have them
invent spigot mortars earlier - they are lighter as well from memory.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

On Jul 8, 4:15 pm, "Marcus L. Rowland" <forgottenfutu....RemoveThis@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> The next release of my Forgotten Futures RPG is a quasi-Victorian
> fantasy setting with steam technology and a separate dragon nation,
> based (with permission) on Jo Walton's _Tooth and Claw_http://www.zorinth..net/bluejo/books/dragon/dindex.htm
>
> While it's nearly complete, one of the things I haven't addressed in a
> lot of detail is the Dragon military's equipment and tactics. Basically,
> while they do have gunpowder (in paper cartridges) and percussion caps
> they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons or
> all-in-one cartridges. I don't want to change this. They can easily fly
> carrying e.g. a very large rifle and ammunition, but anything heavier
> than say a sheep or a small cow is going to be a problem for an
> individual dragon.

A boulder the weight of a small cow will do very nicely as weapon if
dropped on a formation of troops. Obviously, accuracy suffers if the
dragon has to stay out of small-arms range but a flight of dragons
dropping boulders would make a mess out of a small army. If they
actually dropped _cows_ it would be disgusting and perhaps more
effective. Cow-weight bags of rocks would do well as shrapnel-
producers, depending on the terrain. Incendiaries could be developed,
especially for those dragons who breath fire. Drop, ignite with your
breath and watch it hit the tents, supply trains or whatever. Cities,
too. Bursting shells, triggered by hard contact, are another
possibility.

But kinetic-energy weapons would be the basic way to go. Drop rocks on
'em.

--
Will in New Haven

>
> A typical dragon soldier carries a rifle, and may be able to breathe
> fire though that isn't universal. He also has claws, fangs, etc. But
> given that they are hugely outnumbered by humans, and much more accurate
> with their guns when they aren't flying, getting close enough to use
> these weapons without getting shot isn't easy. They need some bigger
> guns.
>
> My basic idea for an air-transportable heavier weapon is a squad of
> dragons carrying a lightweight cannon that breaks down to several
> components (the barrel is obviously the heavy one), plus the wheels,
> frame, ammo, etc.; they have to land to use it, of course, but it's very
> good for skirmishing.
>
> Heavier guns are drawn by oxen etc. and can only be moved on the ground.
>
> What I'm looking for is another dragon-portable weapon, something a
> little more exotic - not bombs or grenades, I think, they don't really
> have accurate enough fuses or detonator caps. Something like Congreve
> rockets might be a possibility, any other suggestions?
> --
> Marcus L. Rowland            http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
> LJ:ffutures    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
>    Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
>    Diana: Warrior Princess  &   Elvis: The Legendary Tours
>    The Original Flatland Role Playing Game

In message <Pine.SOC.4.64.0807090750380.15699 DeleteThis @virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk>, Tim
Fitzmaurice <tjf11 DeleteThis @cam.ac.uk> writes
>On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Marcus L. Rowland wrote:
>
>> My basic idea for an air-transportable heavier weapon is a squad of
>>dragons carrying a lightweight cannon that breaks down to several
>>components (the barrel is obviously the heavy one), plus the wheels,
>>frame, ammo, etc.; they have to land to use it, of course, but it's
>>very good for skirmishing.
>
>Thats the realm of parachute dropped eapons and mountain guns from WWII
>
>> What I'm looking for is another dragon-portable weapon, something a
>>little more exotic - not bombs or grenades, I think, they don't
>>really have accurate enough fuses or detonator caps. Something like
>>Congreve rockets might be a possibility, any other suggestions?
>
>Mortars would work. THey can be very portable and have existed in
>various forms. You can stay away from the modern stuff if you want to.
>IIC they got them down to a couple of hundred pounds - I dare say you
>could finagle how that was broken down. Early trench mortars fired
>anything a cannon could....then you have the modern really light
>man-portables from the 1st World War. If you want to limit who si
>carying explosives then have them invent spigot mortars earlier - they
>are lighter as well from memory.
>
>Tim

Mortars are basically a special case of cannon at that tech level - I
was really looking for something a little stranger.
--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours
The Original Flatland Role Playing Game

In message
<9403c303-2090-4326-b233-aef5a91f9abe.RemoveThis@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Will in New Haven <bill.reich.RemoveThis@taylorandfrancis.com> writes
>On Jul 8, 4:15 pm, "Marcus L. Rowland" <forgottenfutu....RemoveThis@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
>> The next release of my Forgotten Futures RPG is a quasi-Victorian
>> fantasy setting with steam technology and a separate dragon nation,
>> based (with permission) on Jo Walton's _Tooth and
>>Claw_http://www.zorinth.net/bluejo/books/dragon/dindex.htm
>>
>> While it's nearly complete, one of the things I haven't addressed in a
>> lot of detail is the Dragon military's equipment and tactics. Basically,
>> while they do have gunpowder (in paper cartridges) and percussion caps
>> they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons or
>> all-in-one cartridges. I don't want to change this. They can easily fly
>> carrying e.g. a very large rifle and ammunition, but anything heavier
>> than say a sheep or a small cow is going to be a problem for an
>> individual dragon.
>
>A boulder the weight of a small cow will do very nicely as weapon if
>dropped on a formation of troops. Obviously, accuracy suffers if the
>dragon has to stay out of small-arms range but a flight of dragons
>dropping boulders would make a mess out of a small army. If they
>actually dropped _cows_ it would be disgusting and perhaps more
>effective. Cow-weight bags of rocks would do well as shrapnel-
>producers, depending on the terrain. Incendiaries could be developed,
>especially for those dragons who breath fire. Drop, ignite with your
>breath and watch it hit the tents, supply trains or whatever. Cities,
>too. Bursting shells, triggered by hard contact, are another
>possibility.
>
>But kinetic-energy weapons would be the basic way to go. Drop rocks on
>'em.

One of the adventures has a situation in which a group of dragons are
travelling aboard a ship which has stone ballast and a cargo that
includes several heavy iron objects - small printing presses! Needless
to say the play-testers quickly thought of this when they needed to
defend the ship against a hostile force...

The barrel of burning oil idea is good - thanks!
--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours
The Original Flatland Role Playing Game

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008, Marcus L. Rowland wrote:

> Mortars are basically a special case of cannon at that tech level - I was
> really looking for something a little stranger.

Oh strange....lets see, I'll engage my imagination chip....

Greek Fire projectors - thematic for dragons at least...and possibly fit
the must break down and then use from the ground if you want to limit
them.

Gas bombs - there are any number nasty chemicals that they could use - or
just invent a new one for the world that combines acid and WWI gas shells?

Spiked nets spread between two flyers and dragged through and over enemy
formations?

Early WWI flechette type ardinance. Small but sharp darts dropped from a
height - a flyer should be able to carry several.

Collapsible repeat bolt throwers, one carries the spring-arm, one the
base and one the core with bolt slot and loading mechanism.

Big bags of poisoned caltrops. (Too AD&D???)

A rope flown at mounted man chest height could be quite effective against
cavalry if the flyer is strong enough.

Weighted spikey shields? Use as a defence as you close then drop on the
formation from on high.

Nets full of very unpleasant stinging poisonous insects?

Hmm running outta steam there.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

In message <Pine.SOC.4.64.0807100749580.20688.DeleteThis@draco.cus.cam.ac.uk>, Tim
Fitzmaurice <tjf11.DeleteThis@cam.ac.uk> writes
>On Wed, 9 Jul 2008, Marcus L. Rowland wrote:
>
>> Mortars are basically a special case of cannon at that tech level - I
>>was really looking for something a little stranger.
>
>Oh strange....lets see, I'll engage my imagination chip....
>
>Greek Fire projectors - thematic for dragons at least...and possibly fit
>the must break down and then use from the ground if you want to limit
>them.
>
>Gas bombs - there are any number nasty chemicals that they could use
>- or just invent a new one for the world that combines acid and WWI gas
>shells?
>
>Spiked nets spread between two flyers and dragged through and over
>enemy formations?
>
>Early WWI flechette type ardinance. Small but sharp darts dropped from
>a height - a flyer should be able to carry several.
>
>Collapsible repeat bolt throwers, one carries the spring-arm, one the
>base and one the core with bolt slot and loading mechanism.
>
>Big bags of poisoned caltrops. (Too AD&D???)
>
>A rope flown at mounted man chest height could be quite effective
>against cavalry if the flyer is strong enough.
>
>Weighted spikey shields? Use as a defence as you close then drop on
>the formation from on high.
>
>Nets full of very unpleasant stinging poisonous insects?
>
>Hmm running outta steam there.
>
>Tim

Caltrops are definitely a possibility.
--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours
The Original Flatland Role Playing Game

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Marcus L. Rowland wrote:

> Caltrops are definitely a possibility.

Indeed, and thats the vein I mentioned the flechettes. When you mentioned
flying dragons and low weight capacity then World War I leapt to
mind...the flechettes they used were pretty evil but fairly light
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette has some nice pictures actually,
hestitant as I am to quote too much wiki.

THe nets dragged through units seemed the most fun to me but possibly a
bit fantastical if the dragons are not strong flyers.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

On Jul 9, 5:00 pm, "Marcus L. Rowland" <forgottenfutu... DeleteThis @ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> In message
> <9403c303-2090-4326-b233-aef5a91f9... DeleteThis @t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Will in New Haven <bill.re... DeleteThis @taylorandfrancis.com> writes
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jul 8, 4:15 pm, "Marcus L. Rowland" <forgottenfutu... DeleteThis @ntlworld.com>
> >wrote:
> >> The next release of my Forgotten Futures RPG is a quasi-Victorian
> >> fantasy setting with steam technology and a separate dragon nation,
> >> based (with permission) on Jo Walton's _Tooth and
> >>Claw_http://www.zorinth.net/bluejo/books/dragon/dindex.htm
>
> >> While it's nearly complete, one of the things I haven't addressed in a
> >> lot of detail is the Dragon military's equipment and tactics. Basically,
> >> while they do have gunpowder (in paper cartridges) and percussion caps
> >> they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons or
> >> all-in-one cartridges. I don't want to change this. They can easily fly
> >> carrying e.g. a very large rifle and ammunition, but anything heavier
> >> than say a sheep or a small cow is going to be a problem for an
> >> individual dragon.
>
> >A boulder the weight of a small cow will do very nicely as weapon if
> >dropped on a formation of troops. Obviously, accuracy suffers if the
> >dragon has to stay out of small-arms range but a flight of dragons
> >dropping boulders would make a mess out of a small army. If they
> >actually dropped _cows_ it would be disgusting and perhaps more
> >effective. Cow-weight bags of rocks would do well as shrapnel-
> >producers, depending on the terrain. Incendiaries could be developed,
> >especially for those dragons who breath fire. Drop, ignite with your
> >breath and watch it hit the tents, supply trains or whatever. Cities,
> >too. Bursting shells, triggered by hard contact, are another
> >possibility.
>
> >But kinetic-energy weapons would be the basic way to go. Drop rocks on
> >'em.
>
> One of the adventures has a situation in which a group of dragons are
> travelling aboard a ship which has stone ballast and a cargo that
> includes several heavy iron objects - small printing presses! Needless
> to say the play-testers quickly thought of this when they needed to
> defend the ship against a hostile force...
>
> The barrel of burning oil idea is good - thanks!

I have dragons in my fantasy campaigns and they do sometimes use
dropped objects but they all breathe fire and they are huge, so it
isn't as big a deal. I have another flying species, the Pouli, sapient
birds, that lack many of the advantages that dragons have, being the
size of small humans. However, being able to hover several thousand
feet up and cast spells has served them well against human foes on
many occasions. They can lift maybe thirty pounds each (they can lift
more than that a short distance but I'm talking about lift and take
somewhere and do something with it) and they still use kinetic-energy
weapons and incendiaries from the air fairly effectively. A thirty
pound stone at terminal velocity is a very dangerous object.

--
Will in New Haven

In message <Jt24YRPPr8cIFwYM.RemoveThis@00.d0.59.f5.d0.2a>, Marcus L. Rowland
<forgottenfutures.RemoveThis@ntlworld.com> writes

>they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons

>They can easily fly carrying e.g. a very large rifle
Do they, indeed, have *rifling* ... I thought this was a
development *after* breech loading ...

otherwise you have to ram the shell *down the rifling* and that
doesn't sound too good to me ... !


>A typical dragon soldier carries a rifle
"long gun" ... ?

>They need some bigger guns.
How soon ?

I can *imagine* a way ... *some* dragons can
breathe fire ...

thin wooden mould parts that are held together around a
wooden core in the manner of a barrel, held with metal hoops ...

these ... and the exotic *mix* for the barrel material;
something that can be ignited by a dragon to fuse / melt rapidly in the
mould to make a gun barrel ... could easily be flown in

the result, a long-barrel gun with accuracy; good for
perhaps a dozen shots ... after which time it will probably explode
violently and catastrophically ... hence, not worth capturing (the
dragons can ignite the powder charge from a safe distance ...)

so ... each such gun crew requires at least one dragon
that *can* breathe fire

the mixture difficult to reverse-engineer as it requires
something specific in the dragon breath - fire to cause the reaction
that creates the barrel in a sufficiently short time (remember the mould
is light wood ... it will burn)

>My basic idea for an air-transportable heavier weapon is a squad of
>dragons carrying a lightweight cannon that breaks down to several
>components (the barrel is obviously the heavy one), plus the wheels,
>frame, ammo, etc.; they have to land to use it, of course, but it's very
>good for skirmishing.

Something like a single - shot 0.5 " gatling gun ? A matrix to
hold several light-weight barrels ... ?

>Heavier guns are drawn by oxen etc. and can only be moved on the ground.

>What I'm looking for is another dragon-portable weapon, something a
>little more exotic - not bombs or grenades, I think, they don't really have
>accurate enough fuses or detonator caps. Something like Congreve
>rockets might be a possibility, any other suggestions?

Dragons *could* airlift rockets ... (but Congreve rockets aren't
that accurate, are they?) ... a dragon could carry rockets in its claws
.... drop and ignite them (long fuses!!) ... so *air - launched* rockets
.... increasing the potential range ?



having read the other contributions ... pairs of dragons carry
balls / rocks connected by chains or strong ropes; these are for use on
any battlefield but particularly those with slops / escarpments ...

the tool acquires kinetic energy from the speed of the dragons
and is dropped to slow troops / trip troops / drop troops off ledges ...

?
--
Rex M F Smith

On Jul 11, 10:08 am, Tim Fitzmaurice <tj... DeleteThis @cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Rex M F Smith wrote:
>
> > In message <Jt24YRPPr8cIF... DeleteThis @00.d0.59.f5.d0.2a>, Marcus L. Rowland
> > <forgottenfutu... DeleteThis @ntlworld.com> writes
>
> >> they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons
>
> >> They can easily fly carrying e.g. a very large rifle
> >        Do they, indeed, have *rifling* ... I thought this was a
> > development *after* breech loading ...
>
> >        otherwise you have to ram the shell *down the rifling* and that
> > doesn't sound too good to me ... !
>
> Rifling came first from memory. For mass use not that long before because
> of just the reason you mention.

Rifling came first. At least there were muzzle-loading rifles. The
earliest Kentucky long-rifles, the Baker rifle that the English rifle
units used in the Napoleonic wars, etc. They were all muzzle-loaded.
Reloading was much slower than with a musket so the units that used
them operated as scouts, scirmishers, snipers and did not generally
stand to line of battle.

--
Will in New Haven


>
> Tim
> --
> When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
> ICQ: 5178568

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Rex M F Smith wrote:

> In message <Jt24YRPPr8cIFwYM DeleteThis @00.d0.59.f5.d0.2a>, Marcus L. Rowland
> <forgottenfutures DeleteThis @ntlworld.com> writes
>
>> they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons
>
>> They can easily fly carrying e.g. a very large rifle
> Do they, indeed, have *rifling* ... I thought this was a
> development *after* breech loading ...
>
> otherwise you have to ram the shell *down the rifling* and that
> doesn't sound too good to me ... !

Rifling came first from memory. For mass use not that long before because
of just the reason you mention.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

In message <DkTkzGGCq1dIFwg1.RemoveThis@gehena.demon.co.uk>, Rex M F Smith
<usenet.RemoveThis@gehena.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <Jt24YRPPr8cIFwYM.RemoveThis@00.d0.59.f5.d0.2a>, Marcus L. Rowland
><forgottenfutures.RemoveThis@ntlworld.com> writes
>
>>they (and the Yarge [humans]) don't yet have breech-loading weapons
>
>>They can easily fly carrying e.g. a very large rifle
> Do they, indeed, have *rifling* ... I thought this was a
>development *after* breech loading ...
>
> otherwise you have to ram the shell *down the rifling* and that
>doesn't sound too good to me ... !
>
>
>>A typical dragon soldier carries a rifle
> "long gun" ... ?
>
>>They need some bigger guns.
> How soon ?
>
> I can *imagine* a way ... *some* dragons can
>breathe fire ...
>
> thin wooden mould parts that are held together around a
>wooden core in the manner of a barrel, held with metal hoops ...
>
> these ... and the exotic *mix* for the barrel material;
>something that can be ignited by a dragon to fuse / melt rapidly in the
>mould to make a gun barrel ... could easily be flown in
>
> the result, a long-barrel gun with accuracy; good for
>perhaps a dozen shots ... after which time it will probably explode
>violently and catastrophically ... hence, not worth capturing (the
>dragons can ignite the powder charge from a safe distance ...)
>
> so ... each such gun crew requires at least one dragon
>that *can* breathe fire
>
> the mixture difficult to reverse-engineer as it requires
>something specific in the dragon breath - fire to cause the reaction
>that creates the barrel in a sufficiently short time (remember the mould
>is light wood ... it will burn)
>
>>My basic idea for an air-transportable heavier weapon is a squad of
>>dragons carrying a lightweight cannon that breaks down to several
>>components (the barrel is obviously the heavy one), plus the wheels,
>>frame, ammo, etc.; they have to land to use it, of course, but it's very
>>good for skirmishing.
>
> Something like a single - shot 0.5 " gatling gun ? A matrix to
>hold several light-weight barrels ... ?
>
>>Heavier guns are drawn by oxen etc. and can only be moved on the ground.
>
>>What I'm looking for is another dragon-portable weapon, something a
>>little more exotic - not bombs or grenades, I think, they don't really have
>>accurate enough fuses or detonator caps. Something like Congreve
>>rockets might be a possibility, any other suggestions?
>
> Dragons *could* airlift rockets ... (but Congreve rockets aren't
>that accurate, are they?) ... a dragon could carry rockets in its claws
>... drop and ignite them (long fuses!!) ... so *air - launched* rockets
>... increasing the potential range ?
>
>
>
> having read the other contributions ... pairs of dragons carry
>balls / rocks connected by chains or strong ropes; these are for use on
>any battlefield but particularly those with slops / escarpments ...
>
> the tool acquires kinetic energy from the speed of the dragons
>and is dropped to slow troops / trip troops / drop troops off ledges ...
>
> ?
Very briefly, there were plenty of muzzle-loading rifles and rifled
pistols - you had to be a bit more careful loading them, since the
tolerances were lower than smoothbores, but they were in use in the 18th
century. The next development was the Minie ball, actually more bullet
shaped and with a hollow base, which went in loosely because the base
expanded to grip the rifling as it was fired. This is about where the
technology is in the setting I'm writing.

I'm steering clear of any weapon which has the potential to set a dragon
alight accidentally - they can control their own flame, but firing
rockets is too risky, their wings are delicate. Which I think rules out
your suggestions, but thanks anyway.
--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours
The Original Flatland Role Playing Game