Crossover games

Marc L. wrote:
> "Rick Massey" <seafox.TakeThisOut@gypsyheir.con> wrote in
> news:5ZKdnQ0NBuXwsT_fRVn-qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you
>>have both high tech and also magic?
>>
>
>
> Shadowrun comes pretty close to that.
>

So does Rifts (though I'm not a fan of the system).
Ken

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:34:22 -0500, "Rick Massey" <seafox DeleteThis @gypsyheir.con>
wrote:

> Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
> high tech and also magic?

I've been running a dimension-hopping game for over ten years that has that
in spades.

--
"It is more uplifting to find the beauty, wonder, spirituality, and
reverence in what we can see, than to imagine they only exist in what we
can't see." - hawthorn DeleteThis @sover.net http://www.sover.net/~hawthorn/
** Prism: http://rpglibrary.blackgate.net/systems/prism/ **

Rick Massey <seafox.DeleteThis@gypsyheir.con> wrote:
>Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
>high tech and also magic?

>I'm thinking about running such a system at some point in the future, and
>I'd like to see what has and hasn't worked for others before I take the
>plunge.

The first and most obvious thing to come to mind is to not let
either overshadow the other. It'd be perfectly okay if magic
was better than tech at some things and tech was better than
magic at others. That's the kind of flavor that players like,
and it gives them an incentive to use both tech and magic in
the party. Neither should be overall more powerful than the other,
though, and if your game has as much combat as most RPGs than
they should definitely be just about equal for combat purposes.

That can be easier said than done, though. It depends on
the game. In a game like GURPS, for example, magic can be
powerful and versatile, but guns are almost always going
to be a better choice in combat, for two reasons. First,
they just do more damage than most magic spells. Second,
magical abilities have to be purchased individually with
character points. Gun skills have to be purchased with
points, as well, but the guns themselves just cost money.
I first ran into this problem in a superheroes game, not
a fantasy one, where my Punisher-style vigilante easily
matched the other characters in terms of damage output
and could also afford all sorts of useful skills that
they couldn't.

That's not to say GURPS magic is useless in a game
with guns or other high tech. There are lots of spells
that are more subtle and even some specific ones that
will ruin a gun-god's day. And the bad guys can't
take your magic spells away from you when they capture
you, to name another advantage. Overall, though, guns
are a must-have for combat if they're available. Magic
is a nice-to-have.

I'm not sure what the best way to guard against that
sort of thing in another game would be. I think the
first step would be to really think about what each
piece of magic or tech you're making available can
do. Even something like cellphones or flashlights
can be extremely useful, and everyone's likely to
want them and other bits of tech we take for granted.
And that's fine, of course, as long as it doesn't
leave the poor magic guys out of luck having spent
their points on communication and illumination spells.
Of course, those spells are likely to be very useful
in areas where the flashlights and cellphones don't
work for whatever reason. That might not be enough
to make them attractive options for the magic types,
though.

I think one good way to balance tech vs. magic would
be to look at both and make sure they each have their
own niche where they're definitely superior. Magical
healing, for example, is extremely useful and likely
to be better than high tech healing until you get
past even the Star Trek level of technology. Nobody
likes to be just the party healer, but that niche
protection can make magic a viable choice as long
as it can also compete in other ways.

Tech, on the other hand, doesn't have to be so
protected, in my opinion. In any game where magic
is an option, not everyone is going to take it.
Those who don't - and even those who do, if possible -
are going to want to use any number of the tech toys
you make available. If anyone can use tech, it will
definitely get used even if it's inferior to magic
in some ways. I think the biggest challenge with the
tech will be to make sure it doesn't overshadow magic,
especially in combat as I said above. You should
also give tech its own superior niche or niches,
to make it a viable specialty for character who
like to play gadgeteers and scientists, but I
wouldn't worry too much about it. Tech will sell
itself, while magic might (stress the might) need
some help.

It occurs to me that this would possibly be easier
if I knew what game system you're using.

Pete

System is a complex thing, because I can guarantee you've never heard of it.
The system, called Artistry, is totally skill based with no levels, classes,
or combat rounds. (It uses free-form init) The system is extremely flexible
and just about every weapon you can name (with the exception of things from
Stargate and Andromeda) is represented on the list of weapons.

The system is designed to create heroic level characters as starting
characters, what old AD&D players would think of as 5-7 level characters,
and the magic system is capable of very powerful effects, especially if the
mage is willing to risk backlash if they flub a roll.

For weapons combat, there are two systems. The more advanced system requires
a custom Excel spreadsheet to get results, while the more basic system uses
rolemaster combat charts.

Since it was designed as a wide open system, there has always been a
provision for high tech weapons alongside thrown rocks and clubs.

Free form init really adds a different dimension to combat, as it takes
into account the weapon, any maneuvers, and the fighter's speed to
determine when they attack, and this results in varied attack times for each
combatant and a high reliance on the fighter's speed to determine who
attacks when. It's also fairly simple, to make things play fast.

A very cool system.
"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger DeleteThis @bu.edu> wrote in message
news:d7v1is$dj4$1@news3.bu.edu...
> Rick Massey <seafox DeleteThis @gypsyheir.con> wrote:
>>Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
>>high tech and also magic?
>
>>I'm thinking about running such a system at some point in the future, and
>>I'd like to see what has and hasn't worked for others before I take the
>>plunge.
>
> The first and most obvious thing to come to mind is to not let
> either overshadow the other. It'd be perfectly okay if magic
> was better than tech at some things and tech was better than
> magic at others. That's the kind of flavor that players like,
> and it gives them an incentive to use both tech and magic in
> the party. Neither should be overall more powerful than the other,
> though, and if your game has as much combat as most RPGs than
> they should definitely be just about equal for combat purposes.
>
> That can be easier said than done, though. It depends on
> the game. In a game like GURPS, for example, magic can be
> powerful and versatile, but guns are almost always going
> to be a better choice in combat, for two reasons. First,
> they just do more damage than most magic spells. Second,
> magical abilities have to be purchased individually with
> character points. Gun skills have to be purchased with
> points, as well, but the guns themselves just cost money.
> I first ran into this problem in a superheroes game, not
> a fantasy one, where my Punisher-style vigilante easily
> matched the other characters in terms of damage output
> and could also afford all sorts of useful skills that
> they couldn't.
>
> That's not to say GURPS magic is useless in a game
> with guns or other high tech. There are lots of spells
> that are more subtle and even some specific ones that
> will ruin a gun-god's day. And the bad guys can't
> take your magic spells away from you when they capture
> you, to name another advantage. Overall, though, guns
> are a must-have for combat if they're available. Magic
> is a nice-to-have.
>
> I'm not sure what the best way to guard against that
> sort of thing in another game would be. I think the
> first step would be to really think about what each
> piece of magic or tech you're making available can
> do. Even something like cellphones or flashlights
> can be extremely useful, and everyone's likely to
> want them and other bits of tech we take for granted.
> And that's fine, of course, as long as it doesn't
> leave the poor magic guys out of luck having spent
> their points on communication and illumination spells.
> Of course, those spells are likely to be very useful
> in areas where the flashlights and cellphones don't
> work for whatever reason. That might not be enough
> to make them attractive options for the magic types,
> though.
>
> I think one good way to balance tech vs. magic would
> be to look at both and make sure they each have their
> own niche where they're definitely superior. Magical
> healing, for example, is extremely useful and likely
> to be better than high tech healing until you get
> past even the Star Trek level of technology. Nobody
> likes to be just the party healer, but that niche
> protection can make magic a viable choice as long
> as it can also compete in other ways.
>
> Tech, on the other hand, doesn't have to be so
> protected, in my opinion. In any game where magic
> is an option, not everyone is going to take it.
> Those who don't - and even those who do, if possible -
> are going to want to use any number of the tech toys
> you make available. If anyone can use tech, it will
> definitely get used even if it's inferior to magic
> in some ways. I think the biggest challenge with the
> tech will be to make sure it doesn't overshadow magic,
> especially in combat as I said above. You should
> also give tech its own superior niche or niches,
> to make it a viable specialty for character who
> like to play gadgeteers and scientists, but I
> wouldn't worry too much about it. Tech will sell
> itself, while magic might (stress the might) need
> some help.
>
> It occurs to me that this would possibly be easier
> if I knew what game system you're using.
>
> Pete

Ken Vale <k3nv4l3.TakeThisOut@r0g3r5.com> wrote in news:gYidnU9KubtYRT_fRVn-
vw.TakeThisOut@rogers.com:

> So does Rifts (though I'm not a fan of the system).

Of course, how could I forget that. I don't like the system much
either, but I like the background.

--
Marc

In article <5ZKdnQ0NBuXwsT_fRVn-qQ.RemoveThis@comcast.com>,
"Rick Massey" <seafox.RemoveThis@gypsyheir.con> wrote:

> Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
> high tech and also magic?
>
> I'm thinking about running such a system at some point in the future, and
> I'd like to see what has and hasn't worked for others before I take the
> plunge.

I think that Hero's balance would measure up nicely with Rifts
background for something like this. GURPS 4e's default setting is
similar. There is also the seminal Fringeworthy, that I have always
liked for background, but the system sucked.

My two cents,

Rick Massey wrote:
> Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
> high tech and also magic?
>
> I'm thinking about running such a system at some point in the future, and
> I'd like to see what has and hasn't worked for others before I take the
> plunge.

I usually don't like moderns gaming but I have had an idea for a
campaign based on the books, like John M. Ford's THE LAST HOT TIME,
when magic and Elves come back into the world in certain locations.

The further you get from those locations, the more mundane things are
and the more you can rely on tech. In the outer world, spells are very
likely to malf and probably take an enormous amount of power. Guns work
fine, so nobody much thinks about using knives or swords or bows.

In the borderlands, guns and other tech starts to go wonky, magic
becomes more reliable. At some point in the borderlands, magic becomes
more likely to work properly than tech.

If you get into Faerie itself, magic is incredibly powerful, dead Elves
just come back to life like it was going out of style, and a firearm
would be extremely unlikely to work.

Or that is the idea. No one in this book or, I think, any of the others
gets all the way into Fairie, or spends much time in the fully mundane
either. An Elf on a motorcycle with an AK holstered beside him and a
katana on his back would not be totally out of place.

Will in New Haven

--

> Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
> high tech and also magic?
>
> I'm thinking about running such a system at some point in the future, and
> I'd like to see what has and hasn't worked for others before I take the
> plunge.

My best game ever was such a game ...

The tech was cyberpunkish, and the magic was of the sort that to the
onlooker it's results could easily be explained by natural phenomenon and/or
coincidence - ie. the magic and the tech did very different things, and I
think that was key to the succes, as both magic and tech had equal but
separate value.

Behold! for Peter Meilinger <mellnger.TakeThisOut@bu.edu> spake unto the multitude
thus:


>I think one good way to balance tech vs. magic would
>be to look at both and make sure they each have their
>own niche where they're definitely superior.

This basically takes care of itself in a non-future campaign. Just
think of what you CANNOT easily do with tech that you'd want to, and
aim for those spells. Off the top of my head, I'd want (for
adventuring, anyway):

* Healing
* Surveillance: ie, clairvoyance, mind-reading, darkvision
* Mobility: ie, speed, flight, levitation, spider climb, jump, feather
fall, teleportation
* Protection
* Animal communications & control
* Stealth: invisibility, silence, disguise, concealment of equipment
* Anti-tech: lockpicking, trap detection and disarming,
anti-electronics
* Emotion control and charms

Of course in a future campaign you have to determine which of these
things technology can do as well, and how (if at all) technology can
defeat them. For example, there might be an electronic Telepathy
Shield, chameleon cloak, grav belt or anti-magic ray gun.


--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

"Rick Massey" <seafox.RemoveThis@gypsyheir.con> wrote in message
news:5ZKdnQ0NBuXwsT_fRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> Anyone had any luck with crossover games, especially where you have both
> high tech and also magic?
>
> I'm thinking about running such a system at some point in the future, and
> I'd like to see what has and hasn't worked for others before I take the
> plunge.

I've been running a campaign with both high-tech and magic for 18 years.
It's switched between a number of rules systems, and I found it worked
better with a rules-light system (but that might be personal preference
rather than an inherently better way to handle it, I don't know). I found it
easier to balance magic-using and technology-using characters when I had
greater freedom to define exactly what magic and tech could do in my
universe.

Also, I never worried much about the science behind the technology. As long
as I could come up with some plausible technobabble, that was good enough
for me. Which basically meant that the tech was really just magic in a shiny
metal box.


--
David Meadows
"Welcome to the 21st century, Harry." -- Harry, Heroes #25
Heroes: the comic book www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts