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Since: Sep 26, 2008 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:05 am
Post subject: Colonization questions Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>strategic (more info?)
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I just got this game today and played the original way back when it came
out. I am remembering the gameplay, but there are a couple things I do
not understand. It has been a long time.
1) There is a little arrow at the bottom of the screen that toggles
units above and in the toolbar. What is it for? I assume it is for
placing units inside and outside the city. If that is it, how do I use
it effectively?
2) Economy. I have been selling excess raw materials at my Home Dock.
The natives like finished products, but do not pay much when I take a
wagon in. Is there a way to automate the sale of goods to my Home Dock
like setting a trade route? How do I get the economy going?
3) Expansion. It seems like if I do not take land, someone else will.
If I take land early, I spread my units out. If I pound the food in a
town, I can get more units. I am curious about philosophies here.
I played my first learning game as the Dutch and found it to be hard. I
killed that game now that I know somewhat what I am doing, and started
as England. I have about 5 cities pretty early, and make extra units
quickly as well as buy from the Home Dock. Any insight is appreciated.
I never played any Civ game, and got back into PC gaming with Master
of Magic and Colonization, and shortly after SMAC. I thought this was a
good opportunity to try a modern SM game. Thanks. |
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Since: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 447
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <wZWFk.44392$Ep1.21175@bignews2.bellsouth.net>,
javajeffNO RemoveThis @SPAMbellsouth.net says...
> I just got this game today and played the original way back when it came
> out. I am remembering the gameplay, but there are a couple things I do
> not understand. It has been a long time.
>
> 1) There is a little arrow at the bottom of the screen that toggles
> units above and in the toolbar. What is it for? I assume it is for
> placing units inside and outside the city. If that is it, how do I use
> it effectively?
> 2) Economy. I have been selling excess raw materials at my Home Dock.
> The natives like finished products, but do not pay much when I take a
> wagon in. Is there a way to automate the sale of goods to my Home Dock
> like setting a trade route? How do I get the economy going?
> 3) Expansion. It seems like if I do not take land, someone else will.
> If I take land early, I spread my units out. If I pound the food in a
> town, I can get more units. I am curious about philosophies here.
>
> I played my first learning game as the Dutch and found it to be hard. I
> killed that game now that I know somewhat what I am doing, and started
> as England. I have about 5 cities pretty early, and make extra units
> quickly as well as buy from the Home Dock. Any insight is appreciated.
> I never played any Civ game, and got back into PC gaming with Master
> of Magic and Colonization, and shortly after SMAC. I thought this was a
> good opportunity to try a modern SM game. Thanks.
>
I am assuming that by 'home dock' you mean Europe, so I am gearing my
replies based on that assumption.
Not sure what little arrow you're referring to, so I won't comment.
Except that the two arrows on the top of the settlement screen that I
would've expected to represent 'next settlement' and 'previous
settlement' don't appear to work at all. I assign units by dragging them
on the settlement screen to where I want them.
Like you, I find the natives are way way underpaying for finished goods.
This might be a bug, even, not sure. But they like the guns and the
horses. That's where I make my startup capital: selling guns to the
natives. Expect to get back around 1800 or 1900 for an investment of 700
or 800. Since the natives in this game seem to be a lot less aggressive
and war seems a lot less inevitable than in the original game, I can
live with doing that.
Automating sales and trade routes is different than in the original
game. There, you had the custom house that you could use to organize
your sales. Here it goes like this: On the settlement screen, you will
see the 'build' box on the right hand side. That box also has 3 round
buttons one over the top of the other. The 'governor' button allows you
to set goods to import and goods to export to/from the settlement.
Say, for example, that you have coastal 'Puntas Arenas' where you're
making nice rum that you want to sell to your relatives back in the Old
Country.
Set rum to be exported from Punta Arenas. Then look at a ship, when it
comes up, and you'll see that there's a button 'automate trade routes'.
you click on that, and all possible trade routes will show up, in this
case 'rum from Puntas Arenas to Europe.
But it doesn't stop there. You may have another, inland settlement
'Fuerte' that also makes rum. So you set that settlement to export rum,
and you change the settings in Punta Arenas to also import rum as well
as export it. Then you automate a horse wagon to take care of the trade
route 'rum from Fuerte to Puntas Arenas' .... and the ship will still
pick up the rum from the harbour there and take it to Europe. Nifty.
Same, you can actually move basic goods like cotton and tobacco from
agrarian settlements to manufacturing settlements. The custom house
seems to have gone by the bye, at least as far as I have been able to
see so far ---- but I just got a surprise for instance: building a
lumber mill makes another building available - the warehouse espansion.
And the warehouse expansion has the perk that goods that exceed the
storage capacity don't get thrown out, they automatically get sold at
half price. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. There may
be more progressions like this that I haven't found out about yet.
As for expansion, I was utterly frustrated when the French settled next
to me, and suddenly began to expand their influence and take away my
resource squares!!! My ore mines! Scoundrels! Well, searching through
the civilopaedia I found out that producing liberty bells will extend
the influence area of a settlement. So set those statesmen to work once
you can afford the extra food. But even though your influence expands,
you can still only utilize the squares immediately adjacent to your
settlement. So what you've been doing, e.g. settling lots, ultimately
makes better use of the available resources. |
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Since: Sep 26, 2008 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Peter Huebner wrote:
> I am assuming that by 'home dock' you mean Europe, so I am gearing my
> replies based on that assumption.
>
> Not sure what little arrow you're referring to, so I won't comment.
> Except that the two arrows on the top of the settlement screen that I
> would've expected to represent 'next settlement' and 'previous
> settlement' don't appear to work at all. I assign units by dragging them
> on the settlement screen to where I want them.
Thanks for the insight. Sorry, I was trying to combine dock and Home
City that was not Country specific. Yes, Home dock means Europe, and
Age of Empires has the Home City which sends shipments from your home
Country.
I think I am getting better at trade and automation. I know there are
differences from the original, and it may be a blessing that I do not
remember all of them.
The arrow that I am referring to is a vertical arrow that looks more
like a triangle near the unit selections in the lower right. It toggles
the units above and below the toolbar. I do not know how else to
describe it, but I still would like to know what it means. |
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Since: Feb 29, 2008 Posts: 35
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 02:13:43 +1300, Peter Huebner <no.one.DeleteThis@this.address>
wrote:
>
>As for expansion, I was utterly frustrated when the French settled next
>to me, and suddenly began to expand their influence and take away my
>resource squares!!! My ore mines! Scoundrels! Well, searching through
>the civilopaedia I found out that producing liberty bells will extend
>the influence area of a settlement. So set those statesmen to work once
>you can afford the extra food. But even though your influence expands,
>you can still only utilize the squares immediately adjacent to your
>settlement. So what you've been doing, e.g. settling lots, ultimately
>makes better use of the available resources.
A quick note: Producing liberty bells is what causes the home country
to expand the size of the Royal Expeditionary Force. So the winning
strategy in Col is to avoid producing liberty bells at all costs until
you have 3 elder statesmen per colony + newspapers. Pop them in for a
couple turns and you get to the endgame facing a very small REF for an
easy victory.
In fact, I've almost given up on Col until it is patched because the
game is trivially easy even on the hardest difficulty level. There's
no reason to have more than 2 or possibly 3 colonies even on a huge
map. And there's no reason to get a lot of troops; you can win with
8-12 dragoons and 8-12 cannon if you do as I suggest and produce zero
liberty bells until you have 3 elder statesmen and a newspaper in your
2-3 colonies.
And, actually, the larger the map the easier it is to win because you
can get more money out of exploration with your scout even though you
wont have more than 2-3 colonies.
There's a lot of potential here, but some of the fundamental game
mechanics are broken right now.
-David |
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Since: Apr 08, 2008 Posts: 199
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David T. Bilek" <davidbilek.TakeThisOut@att.net> wrote
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 02:13:43 +1300, Peter Huebner <no.one.TakeThisOut@this.address>
>>
>>As for expansion, I was utterly frustrated when the French settled next
>>to me, and suddenly began to expand their influence and take away my
>>resource squares!!! My ore mines! Scoundrels! Well, searching through
>>the civilopaedia I found out that producing liberty bells will extend
>>the influence area of a settlement. So set those statesmen to work once
>>you can afford the extra food. But even though your influence expands,
>>you can still only utilize the squares immediately adjacent to your
>>settlement. So what you've been doing, e.g. settling lots, ultimately
>>makes better use of the available resources.
>
> A quick note: Producing liberty bells is what causes the home country
> to expand the size of the Royal Expeditionary Force. So the winning
> strategy in Col is to avoid producing liberty bells at all costs until
> you have 3 elder statesmen per colony + newspapers. Pop them in for a
> couple turns and you get to the endgame facing a very small REF for an
> easy victory.
I never knew this - how interesting.
> In fact, I've almost given up on Col until it is patched because the
> game is trivially easy even on the hardest difficulty level. There's
> no reason to have more than 2 or possibly 3 colonies even on a huge
> map. And there's no reason to get a lot of troops; you can win with
> 8-12 dragoons and 8-12 cannon if you do as I suggest and produce zero
> liberty bells until you have 3 elder statesmen and a newspaper in your
> 2-3 colonies.
>
> And, actually, the larger the map the easier it is to win because you
> can get more money out of exploration with your scout even though you
> wont have more than 2-3 colonies.
>
> There's a lot of potential here, but some of the fundamental game
> mechanics are broken right now.
Yes. The problem is that they tried to make the "independence" victory akin
to the "tech" victory in Civ - an alternative to conquest that was roughly
equally challenging. But where the space race in Civ requires lots of
resources for research and manufacture of spaceship components, the
independence victory in Col creates a whole different set of incentives.
For a start, the requirement of 50% sons of liberty to declare independence
is easier to achieve the fewer cities you have. So an independence victory
with a single city is almost trivially easy.
A second, related problem is that units outside a city consume no food (even
those actually in the same square but not working in the colony). So you
*can* play with a single city and still build up a big enough army to take
on the REF.
A simple fix to these problems would be to add a condition along the lines
of "you must have at least eight cities" or "you must have a total
population of at least 40" to declare independence. (Note that a condition
of the latter sort would still be affected by the no-food issue.)
For these reasons I only ever play for conquest, not for independence.
(Conquest of other European powers, I mean - genocide of natives I tend to
decide on a game-by-game basis.)
CC |
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Since: Sep 26, 2008 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Great stuff!
Thanks for the post. I did not realize there was an easy way to see
tribe requests.
I only have two games under my belt, and both are for learning. I
expect to restart a new one soon, and priority for me will be to settle
towns with more food. I was trying for balanced resources, but I think
I will do better with mass food early on, then expand for other
resources. Sometimes, you just have to take what the game will give
you. Another problem I have is that I built two trade carts early on,
and I think boats are way more valuable...especially if you build cities
across a river. Plus boats can automate to sell stuff in Europe. I
need to fiddle with trade more to figure out the best way to make money.
This is my first Sid Meier game since SMAC, because I loved the
original. I wonder if I would like Civilization 4, but I still have to
play the Medieval 2 Kingdoms expansion that I bought and barely touched
yet. Too many games and too little time.
 |
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Since: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 447
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <gcdgaq$ru1$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
metalguru.RemoveThis@imotzarella.com says...
>
> > 2) Economy. I have been selling excess raw materials at my Home Dock.
> > The natives like finished products, but do not pay much when I take a
> > wagon in. Is there a way to automate the sale of goods to my Home
> > Dock like setting a trade route? How do I get the economy going?
>
> I rarely do it but I think the advantage of trading with the natives is
> no taxes, plus they'll pay decent prices for stuff they need.
> Check the icon next to the tribe name banner to see what goods they
> want.
>
There's definitely a problem with it. I've had tribes that desire tools
offer me 60 gp for 100 tools, I've had tribes that desire cloth offer me
240 gp for a load of cloth etc. So I had basically given up on that
(selling anything other than guns) as a bad proposition. Maybe I should
go experiment some more, but I think it's bugged.
Unfortunately I've also found that selling multiple loads at once to the
natives doesn't multiply the rewards. They may offer 1948 for 100 guns,
but only want to pay 3365 for 200 ... drat. Particularly annoying
because you basically only get _one_ chance at selling guns to each
native settlement since cycling desired goods isn't an economic
proposition. I guess you could then go and sell 1 cloth, 1 cigar, 1 tool
until they come back to guns ... pitiful exploit that'd be, more painful
than scumming reloads for good treasures (thanks, but no thanks).
Trade goods were a low profit staple trade item in the original, unless
specifically desired, in which case they were very profitable. In the
new game that seems no longer so, and I've ended up selling without a
significant margin to a tribe that *desired* trade goods. Huh.
>:-[
-Peter |
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Since: Oct 08, 2008 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:26 am
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Peter Huebner" <no.one.DeleteThis@this.address> wrote in message
news:MPG.2355c853e3c4e8429896c9@news.individual.net...
> In article <gcdgaq$ru1$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> metalguru.DeleteThis@imotzarella.com says...
>
> There's definitely a problem with it. I've had tribes that desire tools
> offer me 60 gp for 100 tools, I've had tribes that desire cloth offer me
> 240 gp for a load of cloth etc. So I had basically given up on that
> (selling anything other than guns) as a bad proposition. Maybe I should
> go experiment some more, but I think it's bugged.
Maybe 60 was all the gold they had. I'm not sure if the game automatically
increases their gold reserves or if the natives are dependent on you buying
things to have gold on hand. I tend to buy things from them any way, since
it's cheaper than buying from Europe. |
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Since: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 325
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> * btw why are horses so cheap in Europe? Shouldn't it be the other way
> around, it feels kinda silly selling horses at a profit to native
> americans.
What is silly about it? Horses are from Eurasia. Native Americans
like to ride instead of walk just like everyone else. |
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Since: Aug 04, 2008 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Jeff George" wrote
> "Peter Huebner" <no.one.TakeThisOut@this.address> wrote
>> metalguru.TakeThisOut@imotzarella.com says...
>>
>>There's definitely a problem with it. I've had tribes that desire
>>tools offer me 60 gp for 100 tools, I've had tribes that desire cloth
>>offer me 240 gp for a load of cloth etc. So I had basically given up
>>on that (selling anything other than guns) as a bad proposition. Maybe
>>I should go experiment some more, but I think it's bugged.
>
>Maybe 60 was all the gold they had. I'm not sure if the game
>automatically increases their gold reserves or if the natives are
>dependent on you buying things to have gold on hand. I tend to buy
>things from them any way, since it's cheaper than buying from Europe.
Yes, the availability of goods and prices will vary significantly from
settlement to settlement (either native or other european colonies)
which may simply run out of money from time to time.
Like if you keep selling stuff to the same settlement - I usually sell
guns and horses that I've bought dirt cheap in Europe* because that's
what they'll pay the most from what I've seen. It's a great way of
making a quick buck in the initial stages of the game. Europe never
runs out of money according to the manual.
* btw why are horses so cheap in Europe? Shouldn't it be the other way
around, it feels kinda silly selling horses at a profit to native
americans. |
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Since: Jul 14, 2008 Posts: 176
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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MetalGuru <metalguru.TakeThisOut@imotzarella.com> wrote:
>* btw why are horses so cheap in Europe? Shouldn't it be the other way
>around, it feels kinda silly selling horses at a profit to native
>americans.
Before the Europeans arrived there were no horses in North America.
Ross Ridge
--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge.TakeThisOut@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db // |
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Since: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 385
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:57 am
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 8, 5:22 pm, "MetalGuru" <metalg....DeleteThis@imotzarella.com> wrote:
> * btw why are horses so cheap in Europe? Shouldn't it be the other way
> around, it feels kinda silly selling horses at a profit to native
> americans.
Horses are not native to North America. The ones the natives
"originally" had were escapees from early Spanish explorers. |
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Since: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 533
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:34 am
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:22:02 -0400, "MetalGuru"
<metalguru RemoveThis @imotzarella.com> wrote:
>* btw why are horses so cheap in Europe? Shouldn't it be the other way
>around, it feels kinda silly selling horses at a profit to native
>americans.
You are probably making the mistake I made when I was younger. I
associate horses with Indians and so I always thought Indians had
them. They didn't. They were brought over from Europe. So if this is
how the game works, it does make sense. |
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Since: Jul 31, 2008 Posts: 31
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Colonization questions [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"WDS" <Bill.DeleteThis@seurer.net> wrote:
>Horses are not native to North America. The ones the natives
>"originally" had were escapees from early Spanish explorers.
IIRC, the only domesticatable animal native to the Americas is the llama,
which can't thrive in temperate or wet climates. This proves the inferiority
of the natives' intelligence - everyone knows that if you explore a bit and
don't see any horses, sheep, or cows nearby, you quit and start a new game.
~None |
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