Civ4-Col

"Paul Hyett" <pah RemoveThis @nojunkmailplease.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:s10yXYDIvQ4IFw9i@blueyonder.co.uk...

>>Got my copy from Amazon today!

Lucky stiff! I envy you. Grr! Though I compensated myself by playing a
rather entertaining game of Civ IV as Mansa Musa. Noble difficulty level,
huge map, continents, 8 civilizations, epic speed, raging barbarians. At the
beginning of the game, I had the good fortune to discover Babylon undefended
and captured it. Then I beelined for masonry (and founded Judaism after
that), built the Great Wall before anyone else did and then sat back and
enjoyed the sight of all those barbarians on my huge continent streaming
past me towards Isabella's lands. She and Gandhi were the only other leaders
on my continent after the demise of Hammurabi. I built the Pyramids (for
proprotional representation) and as many other Wonders as I pleased, not
having to worry much about maintaining a substantial army; Izzy and Gandhi
were busy surviving at all. Then Gandhi voluntarily became my vassal. I
spread my Jewish faith to some of his cities and asked him, as a friend, to
switch from Izzy's Buddhism to my state religon. He was happy to oblige. (I
suspect Izzy had bullied him despite their shared dire circumstances.) Some
time after that, I had eight cities and decided to put Isabella out of her
misery. I assembled a huge army and invaded her lands. She had very few
troops, and they were badly promoted; I suspect they constantly had died on
their post fighting the barbarian hordes. (The barbs had by then built huge
cities that churned out axemen and swordsmen.) And she had no horses!
I had brought an enormous amount of catapults, swordsmen, axemen, macemen,
horse archers and, as the war progressed, I added knights and promoted some
horsemen to knights, and easily captured Madrid (with its Buddhist shrine),
Seville and a third city which was so small that it was destroyed when I
captured it. I hastily founded a new one in its place.
Then I began to expand by founding new cities and capturing barbarian
ones. Gandhi was now the target of the barbs, and that kept him back, but
the fact that his southwestern border now adjoined mine did make things
easier for him. He started to expand into the subarctic areas to his
immediate north. Then I founded a settlement on the west coast which seals
him off from expansion into the remaining (huge) barb areas in the south and
southeast, which I am currently conquering. Ready-made cities with lots of
improved land (including towns!) are nice. But there is so much land to
fill, and I want to cover the continent before my competitors turn up.
It is now the 1830's, and I have discovered rifling and military science.
And astronomy. I am currently researching Democracy. Emancipation, here I
come! I have located the other continent. It's inhabited by Ragnar,
Augustus, de Gaulle and Wang Kon. They are all Hindus (because Isabella
founded Buddhism and I all the remaining five religions), and despite having
spent a lot of time fighting each other, they hate my guts. But they are
very far behind me in technology.
It was quite funny: for thousands of years I tried to guess which civs
existed elsewhere. There were distant rumours of many Great Generals being
born, and a very few Wonders being built, so I realized that they couldn't
be quite as badly afflicted by the barbs as my rivals on my own continent.
(They still haven't settled all of their continent, though.)
Of course, when I killed off Hammurabi, I created a vacuum for the barbs
to fill. I took care not to expand north of Babylon and link up with Spain
until Isabella was history.
I could switch to Free Religion, of course; my vassal Gandhi won't mind
much. Anyway, who cares what Gandhi thinks? He's my faithful vassal. Very
Friendly. Once I have spread my six religions (four of them have shrines
which are real cash cows) around a bit more, I'll go Free Religion for the
benefits. Augustus, the top dog on the other continent but very far behind
me (he has macemen, but he hasn't got any knights yet), will still hate me,
but who cares? I think I'll beeline for the UN and bully through a
diplomatic victory. To get the votes, I'll need to conquer the remaining
barb cities and settle the rest of the land without ruining myself. Should
be possible.
Another alternative is to spread Judaism to all civs and win a diplomatic
victory using the Apostolic Palace. Maybe the AI realizes that, and that's
why all the leaders except Augustus refuse to sign open borders agreemenst
with me.
Augustus, oddly enough, is the only one on the other continent who has an
open borders agreement with me. I have spread my Jewish state religion to
some of his cities, and he doesn't sem to care. Maybe he's the one who built
the Shwedayon Paya and plans to go free religion in due course.
Mind you, if Augustus had been on my continent, I dont think I'd have had
such an easy time of it. He's captured most of France and generally achieved
remarkable things, given the circumstances. Of course, being Creative helps
in such a situaion as his.
Some final notes about the capture of Spain: In Madrid, Isabella had
managed to build a monument, a granary, a barracks, a monastery, a temple
and a wall: everything except the Buddhist shrine and the granary were
destroyed when I captured the city, and on the very next turn, a random
event generated a hurricane which destroyed the granary. Poor Madrilenos!
But I built up Madrid again, erecting Versailles there, and it's a very fine
city now.
After I had destroyed Spain, a substantial army of barb axemen, spearmen
and swordsmen showed up - obviously another of the attack waves Isabella and
Gandhi had had to endure for millennia. I left some of my knights and
macemen to gather promotions by annihilating them.
To be honest, I seldom do this well on Noble. Maybe the gods of
Civilization decided to comfort me for having to wait for Col II.

> First impressions :
>
> No problem installing it.
>
> Gameplay basically similar to the original, though with some interesting
> tweaks.
>
> For example : there are still five different categories of Founding
> Fathers, but they each need different types of points to be earned to
> generate them.

That does sound intriguing.

> Also, entry-level colony buildings can only have one person working them,
> you can only use 2 or 3 after upgrading the buildings.

That makes sense. By the way, the advance notes about the game seemed to
indicate that there was only one upgrade of production buildings - from
weaver's house to textile mill, from distiller's house to rum factory, and
so on. Is that true? I hope it isn''t.

> One slight irritation - there doesn't seem to be an automatic 'Board next
> ship' option on the Europe screen, so it's easy to leave without your new
> colonists.

I must keep that in mind. How do you like the Europe screen otherwise? Some
people seem to be anniyed at it; they say it's boring, drab and
unimaginative.

> Will give a fuller report in a couple of days, if not before.

Please do!

Öjevind

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 at 09:03:46, Öjevind Lång
<bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote in alt.games.civ3 :

>"Paul Hyett" <pah RemoveThis @nojunkmailplease.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
>news:s10yXYDIvQ4IFw9i@blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>>>Got my copy from Amazon today!
>
>Lucky stiff! I envy you. Grr!
>
>> First impressions :
>>
>> No problem installing it.
>>
>> Gameplay basically similar to the original, though with some
>>interesting tweaks.
>>
>> For example : there are still five different categories of Founding
>>Fathers, but they each need different types of points to be earned to
>>generate them.
>
>That does sound intriguing.

Not to mention confusing at first.
>
>> Also, entry-level colony buildings can only have one person working
>>them, you can only use 2 or 3 after upgrading the buildings.
>
>That makes sense. By the way, the advance notes about the game seemed
>to indicate that there was only one upgrade of production buildings -
>from weaver's house to textile mill, from distiller's house to rum
>factory, and so on. Is that true? I hope it isn''t.

No, it's just as with the original game.

Another thing : it now takes several turns to learn a skill from an
Indian settlement, which makes more sense than instant learning.

Also, once you've visited a village, it is thereafter labelled with the
skill you can learn there - so no more 'where the hell was that village
with the skill I wanted??'.
>
>> One slight irritation - there doesn't seem to be an automatic 'Board
>>next ship' option on the Europe screen, so it's easy to leave without
>>your new colonists.
>
>I must keep that in mind. How do you like the Europe screen otherwise?
>Some people seem to be anniyed at it; they say it's boring, drab and
>unimaginative.

It's functional...
>
>> Will give a fuller report in a couple of days, if not before.
>
>Please do!

One minor bug I've seen so far : when you have a wagon train & a ship in
the same colony, you don't seem to be able to t/f cargo straight from
the former to the latter - you have to unload it from one, then onto the
other. Maybe it's a thing with the dockworkers union?

Also, roads are hard to see against the landscape.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 at 17:44:33, Vladesch <dont RemoveThis @spam.me> wrote in
alt.games.civ3 :
>
>I played it for about 5 minutes so not much to say, except that I miss
>being able to move units via arrow keys.

>Maybe there an option to enable it. Will take a closer look tonight.
>
I miss the printed unit, etc. guides. The original game had the
Colonizopedia too, of course, but also printed manuals. In fact I still
have them - I tend to hoard stuff like that for ever...
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

"Paul Hyett" <pah.TakeThisOut@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote in message
news:s10yXYDIvQ4IFw9i@blueyonder.co.uk...
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 at 11:14:58, Paul Hyett <pah.TakeThisOut@nojunkmailplease.co.uk>
> wrote in alt.games.civ3 :
>
>>Got my copy from Amazon today!
>
> First impressions :
>
> No problem installing it.
>
> Gameplay basically similar to the original, though with some interesting
> tweaks.
>
> For example : there are still five different categories of Founding
> Fathers, but they each need different types of points to be earned to
> generate them.
>
> Also, entry-level colony buildings can only have one person working them,
> you can only use 2 or 3 after upgrading the buildings.
>
> One slight irritation - there doesn't seem to be an automatic 'Board next
> ship' option on the Europe screen, so it's easy to leave without your new
> colonists.
>
> Will give a fuller report in a couple of days, if not before.
> --
> Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

I played it for about 5 minutes so not much to say, except that I miss
being able to move units via arrow keys.
Maybe there an option to enable it. Will take a closer look tonight.

"Vladesch" <dont RemoveThis @spam.me> skrev i meddelandet
news:00f1d993$0$20620$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

[snip]

> I played it for about 5 minutes so not much to say, except that I miss
> being able to move units via arrow keys.
> Maybe there an option to enable it. Will take a closer look tonight.

You use the numerical keyboard frr movement, not the arrow keys.

Öjevind

"Paul Hyett" <pah DeleteThis @nojunkmailplease.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:3GOE7uZgZl4IFwsw@blueyonder.co.uk...

[snip]

>>> Also, entry-level colony buildings can only have one person working
>>> them, you can only use 2 or 3 after upgrading the buildings.

I've checked the readme file, and they changed that at the last moment. Two
people can work even in the basic buildings.

[snip]

> Another thing : it now takes several turns to learn a skill from an Indian
> settlement, which makes more sense than instant learning.

Yes, and they teach their skills more than once, which also makes sense.

> Also, once you've visited a village, it is thereafter labelled with the
> skill you can learn there - so no more 'where the hell was that village
> with the skill I wanted??'.

And you can see what they are interested in buying. That's another bonus.

>>> One slight irritation - there doesn't seem to be an automatic 'Board
>>> next ship' option on the Europe screen, so it's easy to leave without
>>> your new colonists.
>>
>>I must keep that in mind. How do you like the Europe screen otherwise?
>>Some people seem to be anniyed at it; they say it's boring, drab and
>>unimaginative.
>
> It's functional...

You sound somewhat dry. I agree; that screen is very functional but also
quite dreary. As if they couldn't be bothered to match the beauty of the
landscape in the New World.

[snip]

> One minor bug I've seen so far : when you have a wagon train & a ship in
> the same colony, you don't seem to be able to t/f cargo straight from the
> former to the latter - you have to unload it from one, then onto the
> other. Maybe it's a thing with the dockworkers union?

You may need to scroll down the bar on the right side of the list of
transports to find the one you are looking for. Then you can shift goods
directly from one vessel to another.
My problem is activating military units in the city when they are
fortified. Or rather, I have to activate them from the big screen and THEN I
can go back to the city screen and change them from from fortified scouts
into dragoons or whatever.
Quite generally, many of the game mechanisms are counterintuitive. I think
it's a great pity that Brian Reynolds left Firaxis - or Microprose, as it
was back then. There is a deftness about Civ II and the original
Colonization (both of which he played an important role in designing) that
has been missing ever since.

> Also, roads are hard to see against the landscape.

Yes, almost invisible to the eye.
My pet hatred is having to endure the disgusting encounters with the king.
I know one is meant to hate the monarch in this game, but that kissing,
sucking sound is almost as repulsive as Ragnar flipping away the snot from
under his nose in Civ IV. I'd rather have the wall-eyed, fat king from old
Col, or simply the information that taxation is up, and do you accept it?
The old king was funny, though he was a pain; this one almost gives the
impression of having been designed by someone obsessively keen to make the
player pissed off at the monarch. The result is that I get distracted from
the game and enjoy it less. With that constantly recurring event in its
present form, playing the game is like trying to concentrate on research
work in a library where the next table is occupied by someone wolfing down
snacks and slurping soda.
And why does the game start with the king demanding a cut of the money you
*start* with? That's a bit over the top. It doesn't make any sense at all.
Also, the historical "information" in the Civilopedia seems to have been
written by a rabid American chauvinist with extremely limited, 19th century
type knowledge of his own colonial history. The comments about Britain and
British rule (basically, that they were constantly an impediment to
development, from day one) would have made even the most fervent American
revolutionaries of 1776 object. Their attitude was that British rule had
changed from being benevolent and desirable to being oppressive.
The historical knowledge in general in the Civilopedia for Col makes me
wish they had paid just a little money to a history graduate to write them.
Now they look as if they were jotted down hastily by some programmer with no
interest in history but very firmly held prejudices. How about this comment?
"Elizabteth's reign initiated two centuries of British exploration and
expansion." Henh? British exploration and expansion stopped in the late 18th
century?
However, one of the other ignorant entires was taken over from the
original Colonization. We are told to admire Bartolomé de Las Casas because
he objected against the enslavement of Indians. What the desigenrs clearly
don't know is that Las Casas urged the Spanish government to import black
slaves from Africa instead...
A final peeve: I loved the opening sequence in the old Col. The caravel
travelling through unknwon seas, and that haunting music changing at the end
into a merry New World jig. Now we have one of those clumsy animations that
are familiar from Civ and which I do not admire. "Look, an Indian is hiding
behind a tree! Now he runs forward - rather jerkily - and accepts some glass
beads! Wow! And the statesman shouts about freedom and pounds his fist,
though also somewhat jerkily." Yech.
I think I'll return to that rather enjoyable game of BtS as Mansa I
interrupted for Col II. Col II obviously has some merit, but it feels rather
hastily cobbled together, and more like a mod of Civ IV than as a truly
standalone game.

Öjevind

Öjevind Lång wrote:
....
> Also, the historical "information" in the Civilopedia seems to have
> been written by a rabid American chauvinist with extremely limited, 19th
> century type knowledge of his own colonial history. The comments about
> Britain and British rule (basically, that they were constantly an
> impediment to development, from day one) would have made even the most
> fervent American revolutionaries of 1776 object. Their attitude was that
> British rule had changed from being benevolent and desirable to being
> oppressive.

Without reading that article, I can't be sure how over-the-top it is,
but British policies did deliberate impede the development of any
American industry that was inconsistent with their mercantilist
philosophy, and they did this almost from the very beginnings of the
colonies.

"James Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper DeleteThis @verizon.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:gbvnam$8vs$1@registered.motzarella.org...

[snip]

> Without reading that article, I can't be sure how over-the-top it is, but
> British policies did deliberate impede the development of any American
> industry that was inconsistent with their mercantilist philosophy, and
> they did this almost from the very beginnings of the colonies.

The development of industries in the colonies was against English
mercantilist dogma, but they did nothing effective to stop it, and certainly
not by taxation of them, or of the colonists in any manner at all. That was
unheard of before the 1760's, when George III decided that the 13 colonies
should pay at least some of the cost for their own defence. He definitely
went about it in the worst way imaginable.
When I said that the Founding Fathers did not regard English rule as
traditionally oppressive, I meant it. With the exception of Samuel Adams (a
puritan firebrand to the bone), they all did a lot of anguished
soul-searching before they decided that there was no alternative to
rebellion.
Also, check the quality of the rest of the historial "information". The
two examples I gave ("With Elizaeth began two centuries of exploration and
expansion" and the incomplete dope on the "humanitarian" Las Casas) are only
two out of many.
I am not trying to do the dirt on the Founding Fathers. I simply pointed
out that the quality of the historical information in the game is dismal.

Öjevind

In message <6kh0lkF7jr3sU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>, Öjevind Lång
<bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang> writes
>>
>> It's functional...
>
>You sound somewhat dry. I agree; that screen is very functional but
>also quite dreary. As if they couldn't be bothered to match the beauty
>of the landscape in the New World.
>
Maybe it was entirely intentional. To represent the excitement of
leaving your old, drab life in Europe behind for a new exciting
colourful life in the NW.

Or then again, maybe they couldn't be arsed to do a better job
--
Sean Black

In article <6kh0lkF7jr3sU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>, Öjevind Lång
<bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang> writes
>[snip]
> Also, the historical "information" in the Civilopedia seems to have
>been written by a rabid American chauvinist with extremely limited,
>19th century type knowledge of his own colonial history. The comments
>about Britain and British rule (basically, that they were constantly an
>impediment to development, from day one) would have made even the most
>fervent American revolutionaries of 1776 object. Their attitude was
>that British rule had changed from being benevolent and desirable to
>being oppressive.

I recently heard a (US) historian put the revolution in perspective:she
said it was really just one bunch of English guys fighting another bunch
of English guys with different ideas.

David
--
David Littlewood

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 at 12:11:00, Öjevind Lång <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang>
wrote in alt.games.civ3 :
>
>>>> Also, entry-level colony buildings can only have one person working
>>>>them, you can only use 2 or 3 after upgrading the buildings.
>
>I've checked the readme file, and they changed that at the last moment.
>Two people can work even in the basic buildings.

Fair enough.
>
>[snip]
>
>> Another thing : it now takes several turns to learn a skill from an
>>Indian settlement, which makes more sense than instant learning.
>
>Yes, and they teach their skills more than once, which also makes sense.

Didn't notice that.
>
>> Also, once you've visited a village, it is thereafter labelled with
>>the skill you can learn there - so no more 'where the hell was that
>>village with the skill I wanted??'.
>
>And you can see what they are interested in buying. That's another bonus.

True.
>
>>>
>>>How do you like the Europe screen otherwise? Some people seem to be
>>>anniyed at it; they say it's boring, drab and unimaginative.
>>
>> It's functional...
>
>You sound somewhat dry.

Exactly.

> My problem is activating military units in the city when they are
>fortified. Or rather, I have to activate them from the big screen and
>THEN I can go back to the city screen and change them from from
>fortified scouts into dragoons or whatever.

Can't say I noticed that.

> Quite generally, many of the game mechanisms are counterintuitive.

Indeed.

> My pet hatred is having to endure the disgusting encounters with the
>king. I know one is meant to hate the monarch in this game, but that
>kissing, sucking sound is almost as repulsive as Ragnar flipping away
>the snot from under his nose in Civ IV.

Grin.

> Also, the historical "information" in the Civilopedia seems to have
>been written by a rabid American chauvinist with extremely limited,
>19th century type knowledge of his own colonial history.

Haven't really perused that, just the benefits the FF give.

> A final peeve: I loved the opening sequence in the old Col. The
>caravel travelling through unknwon seas, and that haunting music
>changing at the end into a merry New World jig. Now we have one of
>those clumsy animations that are familiar from Civ and which I do not
>admire. "Look, an Indian is hiding behind a tree! Now he runs forward -
>rather jerkily - and accepts some glass beads! Wow! And the statesman
>shouts about freedom and pounds his fist, though also somewhat
>jerkily." Yech.

I just skipped the animation, as always.

> I think I'll return to that rather enjoyable game of BtS as Mansa I
>interrupted for Col II. Col II obviously has some merit, but it feels
>rather hastily cobbled together, and more like a mod of Civ IV than as
>a truly standalone game.

I guess if someone had never played Col 1, they wouldn't realise the
opportunities the programmers had missed, though...
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

"Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang> wrote in message
news:6kfs9jF7q2eiU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Vladesch" <dont.DeleteThis@spam.me> skrev i meddelandet
> news:00f1d993$0$20620$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> I played it for about 5 minutes so not much to say, except that I miss
>> being able to move units via arrow keys.
>> Maybe there an option to enable it. Will take a closer look tonight.
>
> You use the numerical keyboard frr movement, not the arrow keys.
>
> Öjevind

Yeah, been doing that. Maybe its a numlock thing.
Currently numpad 3 and 9 zoom my map in and out.
Will experiment later.

"Sean Black" <sean.RemoveThis@bucks-aggs.demon.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:70IOpWXdn44IFw+Z@virgin.net...
> In message <6kh0lkF7jr3sU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>, Öjevind Lång
> <bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang> writes

[snip]

>>You sound somewhat dry. I agree; that screen is very functional but also
>>quite dreary. As if they couldn't be bothered to match the beauty of the
>>landscape in the New World.
>>
> Maybe it was entirely intentional. To represent the excitement of leaving
> your old, drab life in Europe behind for a new exciting colourful life in
> the NW.
>
> Or then again, maybe they couldn't be arsed to do a better job

LOL, yes, I've been pondering that too.

Öjevind