"Cha majiang"

wum9tCA9IHNlc2FtZSBwYXN0ZQo=

"Julian Bradfield дµÀ£º
"
> "ithinc" <ithincu.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > As I have leaned, it was written as ²æ"Âé½´"(cha majiang) in Lu
> > Xun's novel. It is not the same with Â齫(majiang) which is the name
> > nowadays. To check the original edition may be too difficult to be
> > actualized.
>
> In my dictionary, the character ½´ means "jam, thick sauce" and occurs
> only in words describing some sort of jam or sauce. This seems a very
> strange thing to have in a word for mah-jong! Is there some other
> meaning not in my dictionary?

In Lu Xun's novel, it is used just to express the pronunciation and it
is quoted in quotation marks. It makes no sense to seek the word's
meaning. It was an invention of Lu Xun.

Julian Bradfield a ¨¦crit :

> In my dictionary, the character ? means "jam, thick sauce" and occurs
> only in words describing some sort of jam or sauce. This seems a very
> strange thing to have in a word for mah-jong! Is there some other
> meaning not in my dictionary?

My understanding is that 'majiang' was first a popular ("vernacular")
word for 'maque' ("sparrow") but that it was not written. Also I think
the exact pronunciation varied from place to place, hence the
differences in romanizing it: "matchang", "machiang", etc.

But in the early 1920s some Chinese literati started writing it. Lu Xun
(1921-22) found a solution, but others thought 'ma jiang' ("hemp
general"), although meaningless, was better, perhaps because 'jiang'
was also used in Chinese chess (xiangqi). It was to be the definitive
spelling.

This modern spelling occurs in a Japanese book of 1924, where the
writer (who lived in Shanghai) said the game had two names: 'maque' and
'majiang', using here both "kanji" (Chinese characters) and katakana to
indicate the correct pronunciation.

Thierry

> "ithinc" <ithincu RemoveThis @gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> As I have leaned, it was written as ²æ"Âé½´"(cha majiang) in Lu
>>> Xun's novel. It is not the same with Â齫(majiang) which is the name
>>> nowadays. To check the original edition may be too difficult to be
>>> actualized.

"Julian Bradfield дµÀ£º

>> In my dictionary, the character ½´ means "jam, thick sauce" and occurs
>> only in words describing some sort of jam or sauce. This seems a very
>> strange thing to have in a word for mah-jong! Is there some other
>> meaning not in my dictionary?

"ithinc" <ithincu RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote

>In Lu Xun's novel, it is used just to express the pronunciation and it
>is quoted in quotation marks. It makes no sense to seek the word's
>meaning. It was an invention of Lu Xun.


"Ma Jam"! I love it. (^_^)
Tom

"ithinc" <ithincu RemoveThis @gmail.com> writes:

> As I have leaned, it was written as ²æ"Âé½´"(cha majiang) in Lu
> Xun's novel. It is not the same with Â齫(majiang) which is the name
> nowadays. To check the original edition may be too difficult to be
> actualized.

In my dictionary, the character ½´ means "jam, thick sauce" and occurs
only in words describing some sort of jam or sauce. This seems a very
strange thing to have in a word for mah-jong! Is there some other
meaning not in my dictionary?

"cymbalum@free.fr дµÀ£º
"
> Julian Bradfield a ¨¦crit :
>
> > In my dictionary, the character ? means "jam, thick sauce" and occurs
> > only in words describing some sort of jam or sauce. This seems a very
> > strange thing to have in a word for mah-jong! Is there some other
> > meaning not in my dictionary?
>
> My understanding is that 'majiang' was first a popular ("vernacular")
> word for 'maque' ("sparrow") but that it was not written. Also I think
> the exact pronunciation varied from place to place, hence the
> differences in romanizing it: "matchang", "machiang", etc.
>
> But in the early 1920s some Chinese literati started writing it. Lu Xun
> (1921-22) found a solution, but others thought 'ma jiang' ("hemp
> general"), although meaningless, was better, perhaps because 'jiang'
> was also used in Chinese chess (xiangqi). It was to be the definitive
> spelling.
>
> This modern spelling occurs in a Japanese book of 1924, where the
> writer (who lived in Shanghai) said the game had two names: 'maque' and
> 'majiang', using here both "kanji" (Chinese characters) and katakana to
> indicate the correct pronunciation.
>
> Thierry

A new discovery:
In "Ren Hai Chao" written by Ping Jinya(Wang Zhusheng, 1895~1980) in
1927, there appears:
"ÅöºÍ penghu" 9 times,
"Âéȸ maque" 24 times, including "²æÂéȸ cha maque" 9 times,
"Â齫 majiang" 31 times, including "²æÂ齫 cha majiang" 13 times
and "ÅöÂ齫 peng majiang" 1 time.

Cheers,
ithinc

Reading my notes again I see that Jin Xueshi, "Muzhu xianhua" ("Idle
talk of a swineherd"), 1783, while describing the game of 'penghu' with
105 dominoes, says that from one to three unnumbered, illustrated
jokers may be added. These jokers are called "flower generals" (hua
jiang)!

Just to add to the confusion (read jam...).
)

Thierry

Tom Sloper a écrit :

> "Ma Jam"! I love it. (^_^)

Yes. And even "sparrow jam"! Recipes are given!

This is a passage from:
Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. VI:5, Biology
and Biological Technology, ed. H. T. Huang, Cambridge Cambridge
University Press, 1984

40 FERMENTATION AND FOOD SCIENCE
(p. 346)

(iii) Fermented soy paste, chiang
Chiang JIANG is one of the food products contained in pottery jars and
listed in the bamboo slips found in Han Tomb No. 1 at Ma-wang-tui
[Mawangdui]. The word also occurs in the silk manuscript Wu Shih Er
Ping Fang [Wushi'er bing fang] (Prescriptions for 52 Ailments)
discovered in Han Tomb No. 3 at Ma-wang-tui. It appears that by the
time of the Western Han, the word chiang had already undergone a
subtle change from its ancient meaning. It was increasingly used
specifically to denote the fermented paste obtained from soybeans.
Since then, it is understood that the character chiang, unless
otherwise indicated, usually means tou chiang DOU JIANG, i.e. chiang
derived from soybean.
[...] When the word chiang is applied to a specific type of fermented
paste, a prefix is used to indicate the kind of raw material from
which the chiang was made. Thus, in addition to chiang itself, the Ma-
wang-tui bamboo slips also list a ju chiang RU JIANG (meat paste), a
chhüeh chiang QUE JIANG (sparrow paste), and a ma chiang MA* JIANG (a
kind of fish paste)...

Another 'ma' character; not "hemp, sesame"...

Enjoy.

Thierry

<cymbalum.RemoveThis@free.fr> wrote...
>>Tom Sloper a écrit :
>> "Ma Jam"! I love it. (^_^)

>Yes. And even "sparrow jam"! Recipes are given!
>...chhüeh chiang QUE JIANG (sparrow paste), and a ma chiang MA* JIANG (a
>kind of fish paste)...
>Another 'ma' character; not "hemp, sesame"...

That's so funny. Merci, Thierry.
Tom